Conspiracy Theories

[VanReal]

Conspiracy theories just seem counter-logical to me. Did you ever try keeping a secret between just 3 or 4 people? It's just about impossible. Now, imagine trying to keep a secret between thousands of people. This,I believe, would be totally impossible.

It is very difficult to keep secrets, thus the creation of conspiracies.  I like how Dallas created the conspiracy theory museum in the book depository at Dealy....put everything out there, makes you not believe there was one at all.  Sometimes they are fun to explore, taking them too seriously or getting too crazy about them takes the fun out of it.  I think the creation of organized religion was and is a big conspiracy and "they" managed to keep their secret and are still pulling the wool over people's eyes.  

[McQ]

Disclaimer: All the below stuff is meant as if we were having a very friendly, but animated debate. I am not in the least bit angry, miffed, pissed, or otherwise upset with VanReal!
I like good lively debates at times, and am just calling out some things that need to be called out. Cool? Ok, cool.  

According to NASA's records we did not zoom right past them.  And it's just convenient that everything went so right at the time, landing, walking, all cameras operational, etc.

How much of NASA's records have you read? I'll have my cousin send you reams of stuff if you want. He's been launching rockets from the Cape since the 70s. Second, it was not "convenient" everything went so right. For one thing, everything did not go "so right".  There were screw-ups galore! For Pete's sake, Armstrong was seconds away from drilling the Lunar Module into the Moon's dusty old surface! Apollo 11 alone had more than its share of glitches, not to mention Apollo 13. And Apollo 13 was the only subsequent mission than failed to achieve a lunar landing after Apollo 11. For another thing, the missions planned for thousands of options, malfunctions, etc. So by being successful, they weren't lucky, or convenient. That's kind of a strange way to put it...convenient.

Doesn't have to be logical, I'm not submitting a hypothesis on why or how it was faked.  http://ares.jsc.nasa.gov/HumanExplore/Exploration/EXLibrary/docs/facts/LSumm1.htm I think not having been born until 1974 probably causes a lot of my skepticism as well, I don't have the emotional attachment to its importance.

That's fine if you don't want to be logical. And I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but you are, in fact, making a claim that Apollo 11 never actually went to the Moon. Which is important as to your next analogy, of comparing it to not having to prove there isn't a god. Totally different. It's fine also if it's not important to you and you don't feel like keeping this thread going. I'm happy to let it go too. But if that's the case, then don't make the claim in the first place that it was faked. By doing that, you do need supporting evidence, and you should be expected to show it. As for "my side" of this....ummm....what other evidence do you need than the thousands of people who were part of it, the photos, lunar samples, Tang, etc...?  

I just mentioned this to say that not everyone who doesn't believe it happened is a conspiracy theory nut, I don't pay any attention to what those guys use as "evidence" and don't feel like any of it is legitimate scientific support of it not happening.  I've never even googled it. (And I google everything.    (just kidding about the shut up thing...it fit so well into the sentence to not put it in!).

Really though, if you ever want more real good data on any of the lunar missions there is no end to the information at your fingertips, and I'd be happy to supply you with some too.

[VanReal]

No need for the disclaimer McQ!  No offense taken at all, and it certainly sounds like you know your stuff.  My other half would be so proud, better make sure he never sees this.  :confused:

[karadan]

If i was to hazard a guess, 98% of all conspiracy theory is hot air. If a government really wants to keep something secret, it will.

I agree with the first statement. As for the second one, our government can't get anything right here in America. I don't think they'd be able to keep anything big a secret for too long, there has to be a certain level of competence for that.

O'Rly?

[karadan]

Well, I think the body of evidence for the moon landing video's authenticity is pretty telling, but of course I can't witness the event or the evidence first hand, so the moon landing is another one of those things which I don't think we can fully beleive or have non-belief in without taking a leap of faith in varying degrees. Personally, i certainly wouldn't put it past humans to try to fake such a thing, particularly during a cold war. But I still thing such a conspiracy would have been very difficult to pull off. I'd even say that I have some trust in the astronauts, but honestly I don't really trust people I don't know (or some that I do know )

But yeah, it's some of the arguments of "proof" in the videos that I take issue with, not really the actual non-belief itself (again, it's not something I really care about). I think the one that annoys me the most, as an illustrator, is the "inaccurate shadows" argument concerning the shadows being cast by rocks on the moon. Perpsectives of shadows can be misleading on non-flat terrain and there's nothing "wrong" with the shadows. Also, what gets me about it is that if it was filmed on a set, why would the shadows be cast in the "wrong" way?

It would have been harder to pull off the conspiracy than it would have actually landing on the moon. The fact the Russians would have fallen over themselves to expose the ruse seems to be lost on the conspiracy theorists. The Russians tracked Apollo 11 all the way there and back. They would have used triangulation to work out where the radio signals were coming from.

At the end of the second world war, the US poached almost all of the scientific talent from the Third Reich. The principal scientists working on the V2 became the lead rocket engineers on the Apollo program. The quantum leap in advancements in propulsion technology are almost entirely attributable to the German scientists poached after the war.

The human race has proven many times exactly what can be achieved when we pour unlimited manpower, resources and wealth into something. Putting a quarter of the GDP of the US over 10 years into the project (by todays currency, about 4 trillion) is the reason the Apollo mission was successful after 10 years of planning.

NASA didn't actually think Apollo 11 would succeed. That is why Aldrin and Armstrong were actually the 17th least qualified to go up. The chances they would die during the mission were so high that they decided to put the last people in line, on the first flight.

Ever since my dad gave me 'Time Magazine' with the picture of the Saturn V on the front when i was 7 years old, i've been studying all aspects of space travel. I have books and books on the subject. It just saddens me that when, through collective effort, we manage to pull off something as spectacular as the moon landings, some idiot sitting in an armchair, simply says 'BOLLOCKS, THAT NEVER HAPPENED'. Fuck those people. They irritate me more than any other type of human being in existence.

I will always defend the moon landings. I'll always be there to counter any crackpot imbecile who thinks he knows better than NASA. Anyone who truly believes in this hoax can kiss my puckered asshole.

Rant over. I just hope that made my position on this subject clear :p

[G.ENIGMA]

Conspiracy theories just seem counter-logical to me. Did you ever try keeping a secret between just 3 or 4 people? It's just about impossible. Now, imagine trying to keep a secret between thousands of people. This,I believe, would be totally impossible.

It is very difficult to keep secrets, thus the creation of conspiracies.  I like how Dallas created the conspiracy theory museum in the book depository at Dealy....put everything out there, makes you not believe there was one at all.  Sometimes they are fun to explore, taking them too seriously or getting too crazy about them takes the fun out of it.  I think the creation of organized religion was and is a big conspiracy and "they" managed to keep their secret and are still pulling the wool over people's eyes.   :crazy: does not mean that conspiracies do not exist.  

The truth usually comes out in the end, however, the fact that our governments have laws that protect information for 30 to 50 years proves that many secrets are kept by many people and then only admitted when the information can no longer do any harm to the people involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiraci ... nspiracies

[VanReal]

Rant over. I just hope that made my position on this subject clear :p

Karadan, I don't think I understand, please tell us how you really feel..... [attachment=0:36d2zd0h]moon-landing-hoax.jpg[/attachment:36d2zd0h] Compliments of Chris Madden at http://www.chrismadden.co.uk/moon/moon-landing-hoax.html

[SSY]

I'm all for people investigating claims of moon landings, after all, every idea should be scrutinised and held up for testing.

When people start coming to conclusions that are obviously wrong though, in the face of insurmountable evidence, it makes me a little sad.

You can actually see some of the lunar objects from earth now (you need a research grade cassegrain telescope, sure, but thats not the point! ).

[karadan]

Rant over. I just hope that made my position on this subject clear :p

Karadan, I don't think I understand, please tell us how you really feel.....

You can actually see some of the lunar objects from earth now (you need a research grade cassegrain telescope, sure, but thats not the point! ).

Wow. That sounds 'spensive. That is super cool though.

[Rev.RonnieReynolds]

People who believe these types of things are the same type of people who supported bush, just the opposite end of the spectrum.  Think for yourself.  You're capable of that.

[BadPoison]

People who believe these types of things are the same type of people who supported bush, just the opposite end of the spectrum.  Think for yourself.  You're capable of that.

I supported very little of Bush's implementation, and fewer of his ideas - however I wouldn't necessarily lump all of those that did in with every other nutter.

[McQ]

I'm all for people investigating claims of moon landings, after all, every idea should be scrutinised and held up for testing.

When people start coming to conclusions that are obviously wrong though, in the face of insurmountable evidence, it makes me a little sad.

You can actually see some of the lunar objects from earth now (you need a research grade cassegrain telescope, sure, but thats not the point! ).

Hmmm, when this thread was resurrected, I just noticed this.

What justification is there to "investigate claims" of the lunar landings? You don't investigate things that actually happened and are already documented (some of the most documented events in human history). Maybe you "investigate" details of how well the missions performed, but that's about it.

You can not see objects left behind from the lunar missions, even with the Hubble Space Telescope. Not even close. The Keck telescope would need to be 75 meters in diameter just to see the Lunar Rover. To see any of the U.S. flags a telescope would need to be 200 meters in diameter.

The Moon Landing Hoax people are actually more idiotic than the Holocaust Deniers or the 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists, IMHO.  

Some links to start with on the Apollo "Hoax":

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html

http://www.bautforum.com/