Atheism & Christening

[Kyuuketsuki]

A friend of mine (also a strong atheist) was asked to be god father to a friend's kids ... the kids father is strong atheist, the mother is what I call a "wannabe Christian" (she really wants to believe but the available evidence doesn't support such beliefs but more precisely her husband and all his friends make it fairly clear they think such beliefs are pretty frakking stupid) and in the UK there has grown a social culture where it is the done thing to get your children baptised because you get the family down, the kids and parents all look tickety boo and all that (if you're British you probably know what I mean).

Don't get me wrong, even as an unbeliever I think it's an honour to be chosen to be someone's godfather and a close friend of mine has told me jokingly that he plans to get me to be his kid's godfather something I think he may have done because he really would like me to do it but used a joke-like format to see how I would react. I told him I considered it an honour to be chosen but could not do so because it would be hypocritical.

So, my friend (my best friend as it happens) was chosen by this couple to be their child's godparent and he chose to do it but mumble when "God" was to be said and when it came to the promise bit (where the godfather says something religious over the child) he said, in Latin, "To Benedict with love" (I think that is "Ut Benedictus por amor" but I'm even worse at Latin than I ma in French and the only thing in French I know is "Tete d' Merde") which certainly sounds religious but actually isn't.

Anyway, I was wondering what your feelings would be on this (and this isn't a reflection on humanist god parenting/mentoring or whatever they call it)?

Kyu

[SSY]

I am a godfather. The church was pretty, lots of family around so was quite a nice day in all.

Was somewhat embarrasing when it came time to say the prayer though, got as fas as " Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name . . . . "

The mother of the child in question is also my godmother, so I thought it would be quite nice to return the favour. Technically I am supposed to make sure the child grows up anglican (I think, the church didn't look catholic at any rate), but since she left that part out with me, I am sure I can do the same   .

[Kyuuketsuki]

I am a godfather. The church was pretty, lots of family around so was quite a nice day in all.

Yeah so am I but I wasn't so atheist then.

Kyu

[Xalle]

I dont see how an Atheist can stand in a church and say that they will (allow me to quote here)

In Baptism we start our journey with Christ through which we receive his grace and truth. In Baptism, God calls us out of darkness into his marvellous light. Therefore I ask
Do you turn to Christ?
Parents and godparents respond:
I turn to Christ.

You vow to bring the child up in the chuch, following god. I dont see how you can do that.  

I also find it laughable that someone who is an Atheist and someone who isnt a "full believer" would want to do this. I get the whole.. "its a nice family day". But seriously... I was Christened or Baptised whichever, but by the time my brother and two sisters came along my parents were far more happy in their Agnosticism and chose not to take vows they knew they would never keep. We ALL have "godparents" but thats cause there isnt another word for it. My brothers and sisters had "naming ceremonies" and our godparents were asked to promise to care for us and guide us and love us. Thats it.

I couldnt do it myself. I couldnt, wouldn't make a mockery of someones faith, even if I do think its ill-placed.

[Will]

I haven't seen my god-parents since I was maybe in my teens. I think they were my god-parents out of some "let's bring the families together" thing, like arranged marriage.

If I were asked to be a god-parent now, I'd take it as an opportunity to simply be there to watch out for the kid in general. The whole spiritual aspect is rarely observed. It's more like a way to say, "Our family likes you, now hold our kid while a priest bathes him."

[curiosityandthecat]

Eh, I think it's up to the people with the child. If they're aware of the agnosticism or atheism of their chosen "God-whatever" for their child, and they still want to allow that "mockery" to happen in the church, it's their business. Faith is nothing more than a preference by circumstance, like being born in Italy and liking Italian food: change the location, change the preference, it's not inherent in the person. I mock peoples' faith all the time and I don't even have to say a word. My very existence is a mockery to their faith.

I wouldn't worry about it. As long as there's no information being withheld and the parents are fully informed, if they want to bring a blasphemer into the house of their god, let them. It's all a fairy tale anyway, remember? As Sam Harris says, it's time to bring faith and belief into the larger realm of discourse and out of the vacuum in which it's so long been safe.

[Xalle]

You wouldnt have a problem lying to everyone there?

See I would. I personally think there is something wrong with making a vow you have no intention of keeping.

Faith is nothing more than a preference by circumstance

Really? I agree the faith you are born into is an accident of birth. But once you get past the point of your parents dagging you to church or mass or chapple or wherever they bring you and if you choose to make "faith" choices, ie, bringing you child up IN the church, those are decisions you make. Once you're an adult you I dont think you can say "oops.. I seem to be a "insert religion here" I better just tow the line".

I think its ok at times to pooh pooh things peeps of religion say. Its ok to say  go on then.. smite me, to some moron on the street bashing his bible. Its fine to challenge their ideas but even if the parents dont believe and are doing the whole thing as a "fun family day out" but have the courage of your convictions then and dont have it in a church. Dont promise something you've no intention of delivering on.

[Ihateyoumike]

See I would. I personally think there is something wrong with making a vow you have no intention of keeping.

Like a catholic priest who breaks the vow of celibacy by molesting a child? Or, the 50% of married people who break their vow by getting divorced? Or a corrupt police officer who breaks their vow to protect and serve the general population? Or a christian god-parent who ends up raising the child, but does not continue to instill the "christian values" into the child, possibly out of something as simple as laziness?

I think there's something wrong with all of those, except for the last one, because I feel indoctrinating a child into a religion is a form of child abuse and would hope that the child is raised to think for themselves.

I couldnt do it myself. I couldnt, wouldn't make a mockery of someones faith, even if I do think its ill-placed.

Good for you. I respect that. I however fall on the side that doesn't think it would be a big deal. If someone close to me asked me to be the godparent, and they knew that I was not religious, I would do it. It would simply be making a meaningless vow to an entity which does not exist. I see no harm in it for me, the parents, or the baby. What's going to happen, god will smite me?  

[Xalle]

Like a catholic priest who breaks the vow of celibacy by molesting a child? Or, the 50% of married people who break their vow by getting divorced? Or a corrupt police officer who breaks their vow to protect and serve the general population? Or a christian god-parent who ends up raising the child, but does not continue to instill the "christian values" into the child, possibly out of something as simple as laziness?

Yeah... see I dont measure my choices by others. The fact that others dont have the abilty to work out the difference between right and wrong or are mentally ill doest mean I should just say "fuck it, others have no principals why should I". I would also never make a marrige vow like the one the church dictates either but I do think there is a difference between making a vow you believe you will keep, and making one you give no credance to to begin with.

I feel indoctrinating a child into a religion is a form of child abuse and would hope that the child is raised to think for themselves.

I personally dont think its a form of abuse, I think its a bad choice to be making for your kids, but I also think its a bad choice to decide that kids shouldnt be given the MMR vaccination I'm not sure its tantamount to abuse.

I couldnt do it myself. I couldnt, wouldn't make a mockery of someones faith, even if I do think its ill-placed.

Good for you. I respect that. I however fall on the side that doesn't think it would be a big deal. If someone close to me asked me to be the godparent, and they knew that I was not religious, I would do it. It would simply be making a meaningless vow to an entity which does not exist. I see no harm in it for me, the parents, or the baby. What's going to happen, god will smite me?  :confused:

[GodlessInND]

In response to Ihateyoumike and Xalle....

I believe I understand both points of view regarding an atheist's role as godparent and specifically the "vows" made during the baptism ceremony.  In fact, I'm sort of wavering between the two at the moment.

I've known for years that my sister would ask me to be godmother to my nephew, even though she knows me to be an atheist.  At the beginning, I thought I would turn her down, thank her for the honor, politely decline on the grounds of not wanting to lie or make promises I had no intention of keeping.  But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that this is NOT about ME, and that if my sister wanted me to do this, I would.  Besides, I DON'T feel bad about not keeping the specific "promises" I will be asked to make in church.  I'm not sure they're important to my sister, either.  What's important to her is that I have a close relationship with her kids, just as we have with our aunts and uncles.  Despite some very different core beliefs, we value each member of the family equally and put family first.  

The day finally came a few weeks ago.  When I asked her if I was the best candidate, she asked, "You mean, because you don't believe in god?"  I said, "yes," and she replied that it's just a symbolic thing.  I told her I could "do symbolic."

So, Xalle, I understand and respect your position to maintain complete honesty.  I even know how you feel about "making a mockery of someone's faith."  I don't think that an atheist's recitation of ceremonial words in a church falls into that category, but if YOU do, you should absolutely decline to participate.