alternative explanations?

[polka]

hey guys

i've recently started veering towards atheism but am struggling with unexplainable things like...

instant healing- of cancer or not being able to walk (i have witnesses some of these so they are hard to shake, dont tell me they dont happen!)
near death experiences of heaven/hell etc
talking to god - hearing stuff out loud
a bloke i know who struggled financially and then said God sent him money..like the exact amounts he needed down to the penny...for his bills before he'd even told his wife what they owed let alone anyone else.

any explanations?

ta =]

[curiosityandthecat]

hey guys

i've recently started veering towards atheism but am struggling with unexplainable things like...

1 instant healing- of cancer or not being able to walk (i have witnesses some of these so they are hard to shake, dont tell me they dont happen!)
2 near death experiences of heaven/hell etc
3 talking to god - hearing stuff out loud
4 a bloke i know who struggled financially and then said God sent him money..like the exact amounts he needed down to the penny...for his bills before he'd even told his wife what they owed let alone anyone else.

any explanations?

ta =]

First, it's important to realize that an honest response is not necessarily one that feels good or is intuitive. Having said that...

1. Usually chalked up to a change that isn't perceived. Something in the environment, some other biological reason that wasn't noticed was rectified and thus allowed the healing to take place. Sometimes it can be as small as a bone fragment shifting and no longer being on a nerve (to use debilitating back pain as an example) or a swallowed toothpick (that doesn't show up on an X-ray) moving and being passed. Remember, just because you can't see the reason, doesn't mean it's supernatural.

2. Chemicals. Period. There's a number of threads on NDEs around here, somewhere. Rather enlightening. The most common one is the white light. It's easy to explain: ever fainted? I rest my case.

3. Schizophrenia is a typical cause. Hallucinations are another. Lying is a third. Though, I'm not entirely sure what "hearing stuff out loud" means.

4. Coincidence. Or he's lying. Or he forgot something and the entire situation seems supernatural because he's inclined to believe it may be.

Remember, hard to explain doesn't mean unexplainable!

[Will]

instant healing- of cancer or not being able to walk (i have witnesses some of these so they are hard to shake, dont tell me they dont happen!)

Most of these explanations are going to be case-by-case. Yes, seemingly instant healing can happen. Can you elaborate on personal experiences? I'd be glad to field some hypothesizes.

near death experiences of heaven/hell etc

Neurons! When your brain stops getting what it needsâ€"nutrients and oxygenâ€"neurons are in trouble. When they've reached a certain point, they fire off. In most cases, it's a flash of light. In some cases, the neurons that flash trigger memories. This is what is commonly the cause of "seeing dead relatives".

talking to god - hearing stuff out loud

Curiosity hit this on the head. Schizophrenia, or in some cases self-delusion. Most cases though are, I'm afraid to say, lies.

a bloke i know who struggled financially and then said God sent him money..like the exact amounts he needed down to the penny...for his bills before he'd even told his wife what they owed let alone anyone else.

These all seem to be what's generally called "god of the gaps" situations. If we don't understand something, like your friend suddenly coming into money, some people attribute it to god. Of course, there's never any evidence that god was involved. It could have just as easily been Zeus or space aliens... so we have to use something called Occam's Razor. What is the most likely, plausible explanation for your friend coming into money? Did god visit a Western Union? Or is it more likely the money came from elsewhere?

[SSY]

Your first case, many medical reasons could account for those as curio described, but perhaps you should ask yourself other questions, have you ever seen an amputee grow a limb back? No? Why does god only seem to heal people who are candidates for healing in other ways, while giving amputees the finger?

Second, again, physiological reaons account quite nicley for this. Back to questions though, why would god give you a glimpse of heaven if he knew you were going to wake up from your NDE anyway? Seems a bit pointless. Has anyone recorded these views of heaven? No? Maybe they made it up.

Third, mental disorders probably account for some, and lies the rest. In a religious comunity, talking with god is seen as a good thing, so people may try and increase their theocratic standing by claiming this, or at best convince themselves it is true. Again with the questions, have you ever heard one of these conversations recorded? No? Then they could also just as plausibley be fictitious as there is no evidence.

And fourth, again, ask to see some evidence, there are many possible explanations, chief among which is lying on his part imho. Was the money delivered in cash? Could a bank transfer be traced back to god's account? If god magiced the money into existance, he committed currency conterfeit by the way, devaluing the currency of his country (in this case, every one else payed him the money he needed, simply indirectly).

Try and stay away from god of the gaps reasoning, it has proved wrong in almost every case round the world so far, I would not bet on it suddenly becoming right one of these days.

[curiosityandthecat]

Why does god only seem to heal people who are candidates for healing in other ways, while giving amputees the finger?

[VanReal]

instant healing- of cancer or not being able to walk (i have witnesses some of these so they are hard to shake, dont tell me they dont happen!)

I'm going to assume you are talking about faith healers, and I would like you to just google fraud and faith healers and see how many lawsuits and criminal fraud suits are out on these people who pray on ill people.  You say you have seen it happe?  How?  Did you see the cancer and then saw it disappear?  Did you know the person that couldn't want and know there was verifiable proof of their handicap?  These things don't necessarily happen.  The mind can do terrible things and often the "cripples" are plants in the audience, and the true believers with cancer, etc believe they have been healed because of the fraud, and then have feelings of "euphoria" after stopping medication only to never have been cured at all.  These organizations and "healers" are horrid!  There was actualy an indepth documentary on many of these healers and it is horrible what they do to people.  There is no instant healing.

[polka]

thanks guys =]

Can you elaborate on personal experiences? I'd be glad to field some hypothesizes.

[Whitney]

polka, no offense intended, but can you provide documented evidence of any of these miracles.  Frankly, if most of the things you said above did actually happen they would be huge medical mysteries and many doctors would love to be able to study the cases.  For some reason not a single person thinks to try and thoroughly document these things before being miraculously cured.  

Btw, people can grow out of allergies.  I use to be allergic to twizzlers (a red candy) as a child but can eat them now without breaking out in a rash.  If your friend had been avoiding certain foods due to her known allergy but had actually outgrown the allergy it would appear that she had been cured instantly.

[VanReal]

Btw, people can grow out of allergies.  I use to be allergic to twizzlers (a red candy) as a child but can eat them now without breaking out in a rash.  If your friend had been avoiding certain foods due to her known allergy but had actually outgrown the allergy it would appear that she had been cured instantly.

The human body can actually remove food allergies over-night and you can develop them over-night. (Although overnight is subjective, as Whitney said, did the person abstain from that allergin for a period of time?) Food allergies versus food intolerance are caused by your body not properly identifying food and instead sending out the antibodies (specifically immunoglobulin IgE) and inflamming the cells to keep the body from allowing any more of the "enemy" in.  As the immune system develops it is better able to identify foods versus enemy combatants, likewise a compromised immune system may cause an issue in adulthood that never existed as a child.  (I actually just read up on this regarding a study mentioned in my Women's Health mag from this month).  Ah, biology.

As far as the other two cases, I wonder how long ago that was and how good your memory is of the actual events.  Was the friend that could not walk seeing a physician, attending physical therapy?  And the other is just not believable, the bones grow as long as the growth plates are open, they don't just get longer.  I have a friend that was born without shins, she had metal rods placed in her legs as a child through several surgeries.  She is religious and prayed as did her parents and her shins did not grow.  

I think sometimes when we relfect on childhood memories we need to understand that our memories are usually not accurate.  And I guess my question to you would be if you saw these miracles of prayer and believe they occured whey would you be confused about your faith?

[McQ]

thanks guys =]

Can you elaborate on personal experiences? I'd be glad to field some hypothesizes.

Hi Polka. A few folks have weighed in on the allergy question, and they are right. Allergies are immune system reactions that can come and go. People become sensitized to certain allergens, and become desensitized to them as well. As a general rule, people gain allergies over time, depending on mostly external factors, and allergies tend to become fewer as people age. In general. But there are also lots of things that happen to cause an allergic response and literally thousands of ways they stop. So, in short, there is no miracle behind sudden stoppage of allergic reactions, although it is rare that they happen literally overnight. In fact, I'm wondering how you determined, in your friend, that she lost her allergy overnight? Did you feed her an allergen one day, see a reaction, and then feed her the allergen a day later and see no reaction? And wa it verified at the time by an Allergist?

That's the way you have to go about thinking of these things. Be very skeptical and really think them through.

Your disabled friend. Is this actually your friend or a friend of a friend? There are a lot of FOAF (Friend Of A Friend) stories that circulate, but they are usually never able to be traced back to anyone who actually knew the person in the story. If it is your friend, then what specific disability did have, medically? Again, verified by a physician? Then you need to look at whether or not the "regrowth" was actual regrowth or was it normal growth. Was this person still of an age to continue growing? Did he start exercising? Eating better? Taking calcium supplements? You see, there are a lot of confounding factors to take into consideration in these cases that most people are not aware of. And was the growth measured by a complete bone scan, before and after? All of these things must be answered before anyone can claim "miracle".

Lastly, if you've "heard tell", that comes under the heading of FOAF. Can't verify it, so can't claim it as a miracle.

Hope this helps answer some questions.

[Kyuuketsuki]

instant healing- of cancer or not being able to walk (i have witnesses some of these so they are hard to shake, dont tell me they dont happen!)

I'm going to have to say exactly that ... there is no validatable evidence supporting such events and whenever reason, logic and science turns its eye towards such things they are ALWAYS exposed as fraud or baseless in some fashion. I don't what it was you saw but you were in some fashion fooled.

If you think I'm being too hard on you or on such claims, ask yourself this simple question ... if someone genuinely possessed such a skill, such an amazing, awesome, mind-bogglingly useful ability why don't they go to a major, city-centre hospital and help where it is really, truly needed. I know what they'd say, they won't believe us or whatever and I've absolutely no doubt that they would be initially greeted by scepticism like mine but a a few simple demonstrations would solve that wouldn't it? So again I ask why not go to a major hospital?

The answer, of course, is simple ... they are frauds and they know as well as I do (and you ought to) that if they did that they would be exposed for the lying, scum-sucking bastards they actually are.

Kyu

[polka]

The allergy thing was a definite over nighter, she'd had a reaction a couple of days before and had had a blood test a few weeks back.

I'll tell you how I'm so sure, cos it was me it happened to. Wasn't intending to share as I thought it might provoke some shouting at me about religious mania! =]

But I know for sure it happened very quickly, as my family and I went to Greece a few days after and we didn't know but they have no special allergy food over there (gluten free dairy free etc) , you eat what you're given.  I was sceptical about the healing but had no choice to try and eat normal food and was surprised to find I was fine, having had a serious allergic reaction the week before.

This is why I'm struggling! Its hard to rationalise something that happened to yourself.

Thanks for your time guys!

Peace =]

[Will]

some that i find very hard to explain are
well a close friend was healed of allergies she had since birth (she used to get really violet allergic reactions to various foods) overnight, having been to loads of speciallists and doctors to try and get it fixed.

Something like this happened to my little brother, and his experience could shed some light on the situation. My little brother had mild allergies and severe asthma from the time be was maybe three years old. There were times when his life was even in danger because of it. When he was maybe 16 or so, he started to diet and exercise. Within a month, his allergies were gone and his asthma was a lot less severe. He hasn't had an asthma attack since then.

Asthma and allergies are often attributed to genetics, but there are other factors that have been proven to play a role.

Imagine your friend has severe allergies to certain molds, and one year the molds in the area die out because a new insect is moving in. The allergies disappear without a trace and without an evident explanation. That doesn't mean God did it, just that we aren't aware of all the variables. That's why I brought up Occam's Razor. Which is more likely an explanation, a supernatural miracle, or something a bit more natural?

another friend who is disabled having prayer and his legs straightening out.

This is the same kind of thing. You seem to want to give God credit where there are any gaps of information. I'm not sure that's a rational approach to problem solving.

[McQ]

The allergy thing was a definite over nighter, she'd had a reaction a couple of days before and had had a blood test a few weeks back.

I'll tell you how I'm so sure, cos it was me it happened to. Wasn't intending to share as I thought it might provoke some shouting at me about religious mania! =]

But I know for sure it happened very quickly, as my family and I went to Greece a few days after and we didn't know but they have no special allergy food over there (gluten free dairy free etc) , you eat what you're given.  I was sceptical about the healing but had no choice to try and eat normal food and was surprised to find I was fine, having had a serious allergic reaction the week before.

This is why I'm struggling! Its hard to rationalise something that happened to yourself.

Thanks for your time guys!

Peace =]

That's ok, Polka. I don't think anyone will yell at you! LOL!

However, in your explanation of the allergy healing, you gave some pretty big clues for me to help explain it. You must keep in mind the confounding factors that interfere with your interpretation of the event.

First, it did not happen literally overnight, as you originally stated. Second, and more importantly, by changing locations (by going to Greece), you changed the environment on yourself. You didn't eat exactly the same thing that caused your allergic reaction wherever your home is. Environment is a huge factor in allergic reactions. To verify that you had a complete csesation of allergic reactions you have to have documented evidence that: 1. You had specific allergies in the first place, and 2. Same thing for testing and evidence that you are no longer allergic. Even with that, it is not evidence of anything supernatural. Allergies do go away in people. So don't get too freaked out by it.  

Also, have you ever been tested for specific allergens by an Allergist? Generally, a RAST test is done if it is a blood test. Was that the test done on you? But again, more importantly, was it administered and analyzed by an Allergist?

Here is a little more information on Allergies. http://allergies.about.com/od/allergies ... gytest.htm

[Whitney]

Polka, unless you had allergy tests done to determine the exact cause of your previous reactions, it could have been the way the food was grown or prepared in America rather than an allergy to the specific food.  From what I have read, most of Europe doesn't over process things like we do here.

Have you eaten the foods you had problems with since you got back to the states?  If not, be careful.

I have random skin allergies that appear to be related to contact with adhesives, frangrances, and dyes.  I'm also allergic to something they put in some prescription cough medicines.  But never got tested because I keep forgetting to schedule an apppointment and didn't want to have the testing done during college because the school clinic was full of idiots.  So I just try to avoid the things I had narrowed down as the cause.  In my case I think it is due to repeat exposure because, like in the case of bandaid adheasive, I don't get a reaction till I've been applying one in the same place for a few days.  Sometimes I don't get a reaction at all.  Anyway, something like that could be happening with your food allergies.