The Joker

[curiosityandthecat]

Sounds like you are a fan of the tv Batman, in which case prefering Jack to Heath in that character makes sense.  Heath definitely took that character and redesigned him, you have to kind of ignore the old Joker of tv.  Most of the people that really got into the role really have never seen the original tv series so they don't have to compare anyway...youngins'.  :|

[Kyuuketsuki]

[Sounds like you are a fan of the tv Batman, in which case prefering Jack to Heath in that character makes sense.  Heath definitely took that character and redesigned him, you have to kind of ignore the old Joker of tv.  Most of the people that really got into the role really have never seen the original tv series so they don't have to compare anyway...youngins'.  

Kyu

[Loffler]

You must be very young to think the Joker introduced any new philosophical ideas to the world or to cinema.

[Ihateyoumike]

You must be very young to think the Joker introduced any new philosophical ideas to the world or to cinema.

Interesting. Your comment made me go back and re-read the OPs post. I could not find any part of the post that stated that the Joker portrayed by Heath Ledger introduced any new philosophical ideas to the world or to cinema. I did, however, notice that the OP used the words "I" and "me" when speaking of the ideas that they thought of. In fact, this person clearly states that it led them to an odd philosophical conclusion with this quote:

This led me to an odd philosophical conclusion

Seemed like a put down. Why would this person's age have anything to do with an idea that they got watching a movie which they wished to discuss with other members of this forum? Should they not wish to discuss this online, or perhaps find a message board for whatever past movie has introduced this exact philosophical conclusion? I guess I'm just confused as to what, if any, point you were trying to make with your post.

[Miss Anthrope]

You must be very young to think the Joker introduced any new philosophical ideas to the world or to cinema.

Interesting. Your comment made me go back and re-read the OPs post. I could not find any part of the post that stated that the Joker portrayed by Heath Ledger introduced any new philosophical ideas to the world or to cinema. I did, however, notice that the OP used the words "I" and "me" when speaking of the ideas that they thought of. In fact, this person clearly states that it led them to an odd philosophical conclusion with this quote:

This led me to an odd philosophical conclusion

Seemed like a put down. Why would this person's age have anything to do with an idea that they got watching a movie which they wished to discuss with other members of this forum? Should they not wish to discuss this online, or perhaps find a message board for whatever past movie has introduced this exact philosophical conclusion? I guess I'm just confused as to what, if any, point you were trying to make with your post.

Thanks for be being my advocate, Ihateyoumike, and a good one at that. You saved me quite a bit of typing, and said everything better than I might have, ha ha. I am kind of young, 27, but a fairly well read 27, and I, too, find it kind of odd how my post was interpreted. And what WOULD age have to do with it, I know younger people who have seen and read many cinematic and literary works from many different eras, and know older people who don't pay attention to anything unless its contemporary. Couldn't I just as easily be an ignorant 50 year old?

I will say that I don't believe the Joker (or even the film in general) offered any new philosophical ideas, but as any well made film or literary work should, it did a great job of creatively integrating philosophical themes in a way that seemed new, or rather "fresh". The way "The Matrix" did with the "brain in a vat" argument. To be honest, I don't think there really are any "new" philosophical ideas, per se, just variations and new applications; I even stated that my idea was just a variation of "if a tree falls in the forest..." I'd challenge Loffler to name a character or film from the past twenty years that HAS introduced a new philosophical idea to the world or cinema.

[Loffler]

I am kind of young, 27,

I was wrong about your age.

[Loffler]

You must be very young to think the Joker introduced any new philosophical ideas to the world or to cinema.

Interesting. Your comment made me go back and re-read the OPs post. I could not find any part of the post that stated that the Joker portrayed by Heath Ledger introduced any new philosophical ideas to the world or to cinema. I did, however, notice that the OP used the words "I" and "me" when speaking of the ideas that they thought of. In fact, this person clearly states that it led them to an odd philosophical conclusion with this quote:

This led me to an odd philosophical conclusion

Seemed like a put down. Why would this person's age have anything to do with an idea that they got watching a movie which they wished to discuss with other members of this forum? Should they not wish to discuss this online, or perhaps find a message board for whatever past movie has introduced this exact philosophical conclusion? I guess I'm just confused as to what, if any, point you were trying to make with your post.

All of his observations about the Joker were observations one could make about thousands of other movie villains. Heath Ledger's Joker was unique and fun. But the psychopathic direction they took is actually closer to the original Joker than other recent portrayals have been. He was originally a complete psychopath. But more to the point, there is no shortage of nihilist villains who exist outside of good and evil. This is why I suspected the poster was young. I'm also curious who these other people are he's been speaking with who idolize the Joker. I'm not familiar with that phenomenon. In my world people enjoyed the Dark Knight and that was that.

[Miss Anthrope]

You must be very young to think the Joker introduced any new philosophical ideas to the world or to cinema.

Interesting. Your comment made me go back and re-read the OPs post. I could not find any part of the post that stated that the Joker portrayed by Heath Ledger introduced any new philosophical ideas to the world or to cinema. I did, however, notice that the OP used the words "I" and "me" when speaking of the ideas that they thought of. In fact, this person clearly states that it led them to an odd philosophical conclusion with this quote:

This led me to an odd philosophical conclusion

Seemed like a put down. Why would this person's age have anything to do with an idea that they got watching a movie which they wished to discuss with other members of this forum? Should they not wish to discuss this online, or perhaps find a message board for whatever past movie has introduced this exact philosophical conclusion? I guess I'm just confused as to what, if any, point you were trying to make with your post.

All of his observations about the Joker were observations one could make about thousands of other movie villains. Heath Ledger's Joker was unique and fun. But the psychopathic direction they took is actually closer to the original Joker than other recent portrayals have been. He was originally a complete psychopath. But more to the point, there is no shortage of nihilist villains who exist outside of good and evil. This is why I suspected the poster was young. I'm also curious who these other people are he's been speaking with who idolize the Joker. I'm not familiar with that phenomenon. In my world people enjoyed the Dark Knight and that was that.

Since you've decided to persist in your pointless analysis of my ignorance:

True, there are plenty of other movie villains who I could have made similar observations of, or even "good guys" for that matter. In fact, I tend to be bored if my notions of right and wrong, good and evil aren't being challenged to some degree. Heath Ledger's Joker was particularly entertaining to me, and as I said he was "ONE of the most....", not "the greatest, most philosophically challenging ever...".I wouldn't even know where to begin with all of the great villains to choose from, Apocalypse Now's Colonel Kurtz, Nurse Ratchet, hell, Darth Vader even. Like you said, the Joker was unique, and because of  his "uniqueness" I thought about certain philosophical themes, which I NEVER said were "new", a little differently, and these thoughts led me to the conclusion that part of the reason even the mainstream audience could laugh at and "take sides" with the Joker was because of his utter lack of bias. Hence my little analysis about how it's more "acceptable" to go against all of humanity than just a selected portion. That film started a train of thought, I'm sorry if that train wasn't started by something that you think is more relevant.

I very clearly stated that I encountered Joker worshippers in other forums, here's a link to one I just found at random which should prove that things unknown to you do happen outside of "your world" : http://lounge.moviecodec.com/topics/52404p3.html

A few quotes from the that thread in case you don't feel like reading it:
"He’s awesome & I can absolutely relate to him & his philosophy."
"Yes, I fully agreed with the joker’s philosophy"

The above thread wasn't the worst I witnessed, but as you can see, YES, there are people out there who come close to seeing him as some kind of hero, and I wanted an on-line place to discuss the character, among other things, with intelligent people. And by the way, I never said people I spoke "with", I referred to forums I VIEWED. Serioulsy, did you actually READ my OPs?! It would be nice of you to do so before making false assumptions and half-hearted challenges.

Your entire rebuttal is nothing more than a deflection from the fact that your made an assumption about my age which was based on something I didn't even say.You didn't "suspect" that I was very young, by the way, you "assumed". If you had suspected, you would have asked my age or said "I'm guessing..." , no, you said "You must be...". I assure you that there are people out there who are older than myself who watch movies like "Dark Knight" and think that it introduced new themes, the same way that while working as a bar-back at age 18 I used to have to listen to people in their 30's+ who thought the themes in "The Matrix" were completely original. Your assumption was narrow-minded.

You still haven't provided an example of a character who introduced "new philosophical ideas to the world or to cinema", and you should since that's apparently your criteria for discussing a character.

[Loffler]

I very clearly stated that I encountered Joker worshippers in other forums, here's a link to one I just found at random which should prove that things unknown to you do happen outside of "your world" : http://lounge.moviecodec.com/topics/52404p3.html

This is exactly what I wanted.

[curiosityandthecat]

Speaking of the Joker...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/4326830/Joker-knifeman-kills-children-and-worker-in-Belgian-creche.html

'Joker' knifeman kills children and worker in Belgian daycare

A man resembling the Batman villain The Joker killed two children and a child care worker during a knife attack on a creche in the Belgian town of Dendermonde on Friday.

The 20-year-old assailant had a painted white face, eye shadow and ginger hair, and was wearing a bullet proof vest, witnesses said.

He tricked his way into the Fabeltjesland day care centre at 10am by claiming to have a meeting with one of the members of staff. He then drew a 12in knife and began to slash at children aged between a few months and two years old.

There were 21 infants in the creche and six supervisors. All of the victims were stabbed in the throat or head. Parents gathered in the Dendermonde town hall and, with psychologists in support, identified the victims using photographs.

Nine children escaped unharmed. Three of the creche's child care workers were injured as they tried to fend off the attacker.

Theo Janssens, Dendermonde's deputy mayor, said that the man "just went crazy".

"There was blood everywhere, it was unbelievable, real carnage. He went straight for the babies and attacked them. The smallest ones were in their beds, they were probably asleep."

Marita Blindeman, the adult who was killed, raised the alarm.

"She called the ambulance and died," said Peter Cleymans, 47, a paramedic.

"She was falling down as she was on the telephone. When we got there the phone was covered with blood, it was hanging in the little kitchen."

After the attack, the man, who has yet to be named by police but is from the town, calmly left on his bicycle. Police sealed off all local schools as panic spread throughout the town.

The knifeman was pursued by a police helicopter and arrested in a nearby supermarket still in possession of the weapon used in the attack. Alphonso De Baaker, a retired teacher, said the attacker had a history of mental illness.

Khris Kieckens, the proprietor of the Pertotal bar on the same street as the creche, described how sobbing parents rushed to the scene.

"There was hysteria," he said. "One of my friends saw the attacker cycle off. His eyes were running with black ink, he was thin, tall and ginger haired."

Belgian television said that witnesses described the attacker as looking like The Joker from the Batman films. Parents were taken to a social centre nearby where police showed them digital photographs of infants and toddlers by police, and asked them to identify the children who had identification numbers on their foreheads.

Police and hospital sources said six children, between one and three, were seriously injured, another four suffered minor injuries.

Last night they were all out of danger after surgery.

Paramedics said that when they arrived it was unclear whether the attacker had left. "It is very difficult to do your job when you think that in two minutes he could be on my back and put a knife in my back," said Filip Mannaert.

"You can't imagine what we saw at that time. The babies were hurt not in the arms, not in the legs, not in the stomach, always the head or the neck. It is something you don't forget."

Carl Haentjens, 30, an ambulance co-ordinator said: "When we arrived, the attack was over and the building evacuated but none of us was sure if he had left. The injuries were bad, the worst I'd ever seen, especially because it involved very young babies."

Dr Ignace Demeyer, the director of the local hospital, said: "This was a particularly violent attack."

Piet Buyse, the mayor of Dendermonde, said: "An act of great brutality has happened here against our weakest citizens.

"The parents are in great shock and so is our city.

"The only thing we can do now is help with the aftermath, with our minds, our hearts and thoughts with the parents.

"We will do everything to support them."

While the attacker was still on the loose Anna Lies Eckhout collected her children aged eight and 10 from the local school, Bijenkorf, just 200 yards from the creche.

"There was mass panic," she said.

"The school was sealed off. The headmaster was in the schoolyard with a megaphone calling the children inside."

Mrs Lies Eckhout said that lessons returned to normal after the attacker was caught.

She said the creche was popular with parents, many of whom commuted 20 miles to Brussels for work.

"Fabeltjesland has a really good reputation. No school can prepare for this," she said.

Nathalie Francois, came with her four year old daughter Tiani, to Vufde Januarui Straat, the scene of the attack, to place flowers in driving rain and bitter winds.

"We are all very shocked. No one can believe that something like this could take place anywhere, especially a small place like here," she said.

Belgium's Crown Prince Phillipe and his wife Princess Mathilde visited the families of the injured children at a local community centre last night.

[Miss Anthrope]

That's horrible. I can't say I'm surprised, though. Even as I was watching the movie, it crossed my mind that someone would probably try to imitate the Joker in a tragic way.

[parllagio]

Just wanted to jump into the discussion. I was a huge fan of The Dark Knight and I did love Heath's portrayal of the joker, but I thought the brilliance of the movie lied within the relationship between joker/batman/dent.

I have a hard time understanding the "worship" of The Joker though. He is easily one of my favorite villains but that is due more to his twisted sense of humor as well as his charisma.

But, anyway to agree with or even talk about The Joker's "philosophy" is just beyond me because I don't think he really has any "philosophy" to speak of. Maybe... maybe you could argue he is an anarchist, or some deranged discordian, but I think  people are looking to closely into the character. I would argue that The Joker is not that complex.

To begin with there are multiple origin stories for The Joker as with most comic book characters but the one I am familiar with and also the one I feel like the Joker in the movie represented was The Killing Joke by Alan Moore, yes the Alan Moore.

Basically it can be argued that The Joker and Batman are one in the same, they just have two very different perspective. It's this duality that makes The Joker the greatest of the Batman villains. Both have been shaped by some tragic event that defines there life. Both have decided that they are "above the law" so to speak and have removed themselves from society. Both feel that they are the ultimate moral authority... the difference is Batman believes that deep down we are all good while The Joker believes that deep down we are all evil. Batman hopes to inspire people that goodness will overcome evil. The Joker tries to tear down the society restraints that people have to show that they are evil.

If your not familiar with The Killing Joke a quick summary goes like this. The Joker is an average man fallen on hard times, he agrees to help the mob rob the plant where he was laid off out of desperation to support his pregnant wife. His wife dies in a tragic accident, later that day he tries to back out  from his deal with the mob. They don't let him, the robbery goes wrong and he is horriably scared. This breaks him, he loses his shit so to speak. He feels that deep down we are all standing on the brink of insanity, that all we need is "one bad day" (this is referred to often in The Killing Joke).

In The Killing Joke the Joker sets out to destroy Commissioner Gordon by terrorizing him but fails, in The Dark Knight he successfully breaks Harvey Dent, who was the "white knight" or the best Gotham had to offer. In both cases he has a need to "break" people to justify his own insanity.

To sum The Joker up, he is a man who was faced with a tragic event and lost it, he terrorizes people to push them over the edge so he can justify his own insanity. In other words he needs to believe that if any of us were in his shoes we would of lost our shit too, this then makes him "normal". People worship him as some kind of hero cause he goes against the flow, and has disregard for society, but his motivations are to prove to himself that he is normal. This is well, pathetic in a sense, I mean it's his desire to prove that he is just like everyone else that drives him.

[Loffler]

I'm surprised a person who massacres a day care center has the mental function to paint his face like the Joker.

If the movie can be blamed at all for this, I'd say it made the guy commit the crime maybe a day, two days earlier than he would have anyway. This guy was an atrocity waiting to happen.

[Miss Anthrope]

How nice, something we can agree on!

Yeah, the Killing Joke was a great comic, it was the first Batman graphic novel I ever read. The Dark Knight seemed to have taken some inspiration from some of the themes within it. I wouldn't be surprised if the comic was part of their reference material. I would also say that the comic was better in the sense that it actually invoked a feeling of sympathy and understanding for the Joker.

And as cheesy as joke was, it was absurd enough that I actually did laugh out loud.

On a loosely related note, I hope the Watchmen movie doesn't suck. I'm not going to jump to the conclusion it will, but I'm skeptical about even coming close the "literary" territory the comic did, if for no other reason than the 2-3 hour limitations of a big screen film.

[parllagio]

On a loosely related note, I hope the Watchmen movie doesn't suck. I'm not going to jump to the conclusion it will, but I'm skeptical about even coming close the "literary" territory the comic did, if for no other reason than the 2-3 hour limitations of a big screen film.

The Watchmen could deserve its own thread as I would be interested to see what people thought of Ozymandias and his motivations. But to respond to your statement, me and a buddy had this discussion earlier, and we both would agree with you, the movie can't be as good as the novel, because as you said of the limitations of the film. That being said I am still looking forward to the movie and as long as they don't change the overall theme, or themes I will be satisfied.

On another note, since you started this thread and have read the Killing Joke I would be interested to hear your thoughts on my take of The Joker.