Proving that the observed Universe is not all

[Messenger]

Messenger, are you AFadly?  You are probably going to get banned anyway (for ignoring my request to not start any more topics), but if you are not AFadly (and I can ask him at wwgha) you will be definately be banned for plagarism.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum ... 295.0;wap2

You got it right  
If most of you go to the other site, there is no need to repeat topics

[Messenger]

Messenger, are you AFadly?  You are probably going to get banned anyway (for ignoring my request to not start any more topics)

You created that thread yourself, but called it God Vs. Odin

[Squid]

Messenger, are you AFadly?  You are probably going to get banned anyway (for ignoring my request to not start any more topics)

You created that thread yourself, but called it God Vs. Odin

Ahem:

http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2585

[karadan]

Messenger, are you AFadly?  You are probably going to get banned anyway (for ignoring my request to not start any more topics)

You created that thread yourself, but called it God Vs. Odin

Ahem:

http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2585

[Whitney]

Messenger/AFaldy has been banned.  The official reason is trolling.

-admin

[Ihateyoumike]

Messenger/AFaldy has been banned.  The official reason is trolling.

-admin

I won't waste any tears. Good for you, laetusatheos.  

[Whitney]

I won't waste any tears. Good for you, laetusatheos.  

Don't thank me, McQ was ready to get rid of him a long time ago. I was running a small (unsuccessful) experiment to see if I could get Messenger to turn around.

[Ihateyoumike]

Don't thank me, McQ was ready to get rid of him a long time ago. I was running a small (unsuccessful) experiment to see if I could get Messenger to turn around.

Then, good for you McQ, laetusatheos, and the rest of the admin that do a great job on this site.  :hail:  :hail:  

[VanReal]

Anyone else do this when reading the original post?

Yes Curio!  Actually that began occuring before I got to the pretty colors of the OP, hehe

[SSY]

End of an era

[Whitney]

End of an era

Do you mean error?

[toadhall]

Messenger seems to have unnecessarily obfuscated his main points; they are relatively simple and can be expressed in simple ways. This is what I could surmise as the crux of his argument:

1. Something may or may not exist outside the universe.
2. If the universe had a beginning: it must have been the result of an action perpetuated by the above "something".
3. If the universe did not have a beginning, then the universe exists in an infinite amount of time; therefore states the universe can be in are numbered.
4. The universe, therefore, is cyclic (cyclic in this sense meaning a sequence of events, or states, recurring over and over).
5. The universe being cyclic can only be true if willed so by a creator.

My take on these, be they or be they not Messenger's intended message:

My first objection is at 3. I don't feel you've adequately proved that states are finite. If your definition of "state" is as I take it, a given position of all matter in space (not time), then you've made the quick assumption that space itself is finite. If it is not, then by definition "states" cannot be finite.

My second objection is at 4. Of course, it assumes 3 is true for the sake of the argument, but if there are finite "states" it does not lead to the universe being "cyclic". A good example would be pi - there are an infinite amount of decimal places, each only allowed to take the form of ten "states", while having no recurring sequence.

My third objection is at 5. I see no way of proving that a cyclic universe must have been created - besides, the idea was first reached under the assumption that time was infinite and there was no need for anything apart from the universe to exist.

[Sophus]

3. If the universe did not have a beginning, then the universe exists in an infinite amount of time; therefore states the universe can be in are numbered.

It would be infinite but infinity is not always account for everything because infinity can run in only one direction or both. Who's to say the universe won't end?

[toadhall]

3. If the universe did not have a beginning, then the universe exists in an infinite amount of time; therefore states the universe can be in are numbered.

It would be infinite but infinity is not always account for everything because infinity can run in only one direction or both. Who's to say the universe won't end?

Well, I don't know how you'd define "end" - the destruction of the universe would mimic a "de-creation" that could only mean two things. One, it caused its own end and therefore was a ticking time bomb to start with - but since we are working with the premise that the universe had no beginning (therefore the time-frame being infinite), this has to be false. Or two, an independent force or will caused this sudden unprecedented finish, much like what must have happened if the universe had a beginning. The only conclusion is that, because the universe by itself cannot cause its own beginning, neither can it be ultimately responsible for its own demise.