Re: God is not Conscious

[Miss Anthrope]

I'm essentially an agnostic atheist, but I still enjoy playing with the concept of god.

One of the things I find so ludicrous about the traditional god(s) is the very limitations that seem to be imposed, unknowingly by the believers, on an allegedly omni-everything being.

I put this in Philosophy becasue I think it's more fitting than Religion, since it vaguely skirts issues about time and consciousness than God. If I've made a mistake please feel free to chastise me accordingly.

I present the idea that God would not be a conscious being, not in the same sense we are conscious. Imagine if every part of your brain became active simultaneously. I could only imagine that things we attribute to being conscious, like the ability to think, recognize patterns, experience isolated qualia, linear time, etc would become moot. The very idea of "you" would become moot.

If God is "all" and simultaneously aware of everything, everywhere throughout time, then "he" would have no need to think or experience any "thing", he would just "be all". Alpha-Omega implies an infinite, timeless cycle, so it could also be said that  god is perpetually dying and being re-born, and within such an ambiguous "zero time" state of being, his consciousness would simulatenously be experiencing everything in an instant, which nullifies the idea of being conscious, and super "slow", which also doesn't make much sense in the context of possessing consciousness.

So God would be an all encompassing "super process", not an actual thinking being.

[gwyn428]

If God is "all" and simultaneously aware of everything, everywhere throughout time, then "he" would have no need to think or experience any "thing", he would just "be all". Alpha-Omega implies an infinite, timeless cycle, so it could also be said that  god is perpetually dying and being re-born, and within such an ambiguous "zero time" state of being, his consciousness would simulatenously be experiencing everything in an instant, which nullifies the idea of being conscious, and super "slow", which also doesn't make much sense in the context of possessing consciousness.

Have you checked out the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads? There is alot of stuff in there about God or Brahman being all three times (past, present, future) and existing in every single place while aware of everything. The interesting thing is that everything that we know is actually just a transformation of Brahman. One of the Upanishads, called the Chandogya, gives an example using clay. It basically says that we learn what clay is and then we come to know that all things made of clay (utensils, bowls, sculptures, etc.) are of the same substance; they differ only in name and form. This means that the monitor that you are looking at, the seat you are sitting on, the grass outside, the moon in the sky, you, myself, all beings, the stars, etc. is all one thing and it is eternal.

The whole Aleph-Omega thing in Hebrew would be Alef-Taw, which actually spells eth, meaning "ether." Alef's corresponding Tarot card is the Fool, which itself is the Babe in an Egg, the source of all things. Taw's correspond card is the World, which itself has a Western depiction of Nataraja (the dancing Shiva), the destroyer of all things who eventually sends it all back into existence (he comes the Fool).

So God would be an all encompassing "super process", not an actual thinking being.

I used to be into the mysticism of the Upanishads and the thing that I liked most is the meditation on the sound of the syllable Aum (or OM). Those texts claim that Aum is the very form/shape of Brahman/God, whom has no shape/form. Every morning and night I did a session of meditation of Aum (mentally intoning it with each flowing breath) and one night my own stream of consciousness disappeared. All what remained was the vibration of Aum and it was the omnipresent consciousness that does not think... it's just aware of everything. The experience lasted for a couple of seconds. Within my brain I experienced being aware of everything and dwelling everything with no gaps. But I have always been skeptical of what that really was and I still don't know, but I do wish to know. The Upanishads say that Brahman/God is the same exact thing as the Atman/Soul. What this means is that under all of our layers of body, mind, ego, etc. we are a contraction (each being identical) of God. What I still don't understand then is why the Upanishads emphasized reincarnation and control of the senses. You can only realize yourself as Brahman if you control your senses, but I never got into that.

All of this, I think, implies Monistic Idealism; that consciousness is the ground of all existence. From what I've read, consciousness arises from matter and so Monistic Idealism is not true. What I want to know is what was it that I really experienced during meditation on Aum... the truth or just a chemical of the brain?

One of the things I find so ludicrous about the traditional god(s) is the very limitations that seem to be imposed, unknowingly by the believers, on an allegedly omni-everything being.

I think that an omni-everything being imposes limitations on itself by being omni-everything. Check out this thing I wrote, I would like some comments...

Many people believe that God is someone who is omniscient (all-knowing, all-seeing, etc.), omnipotent  (all-powerful, capable of all things, etc.), and that he is the Supreme Being. These three attributes which make God who he is actually make him illogical, contradictory, and nonsensical.

Can God create a rock that is so heavy that not even he can lift it? If God can create such a rock, then the existence of such a rock would mean that God is not omnipotent and never was in the first place. If God cannot create such a rock, then God is not omnipotent and never was in the first place.

Can God create a button that is so small that not even he can see it? If God can create such a button, then the existence of such a button would mean that God is not omniscient and never was in the first place. If God cannot create such a button, then God is not omnipotent and never was in the first place.

Omniscience itself is a major problem for God. If God is really omniscient, then that means he knows everything about the future ad infinitum. Thus he cannot change his own mind about anything nor can he do anything by his own free will because the future is greater than him. This means that ultimately God is not the Supreme Being and never was in the first place.

[Miss Anthrope]

Damn, gwyn, once again you've displayed an impressive amount of knowledge about religions. I'm envious, it's all really interesting, hence my hesistation to actually research such things (I get kind of obsessive when I start learning things  

[gwyn428]

Damn, gwyn, once again you've displayed an impressive amount of knowledge about religions. I'm envious, it's all really interesting, hence my hesistation to actually research such things (I get kind of obsessive when I start learning things  

The latest holy book should start with "My name is God, I'm 400 light-years old, and I do not make any sense. I am a tool of men who think women should be under their control. That part is what actually makes sense."

[Miss Anthrope]

About your Aum experience, I'd say it could be both. As any Oneiranaut knows, all subjective experiences have some shred of truth.

I think it was just a weird chemical of the brain. People see the Virgin Mary all the fracking time, but I know she's not real.

Ha ha, yeah I didn't mean it like that. My fault for being so vague. I really meant like some sort of philosophical truth, or some kind of significance.

What is salvia? A drug?


That's interesting about the chord thing. These things about the astral really get me. I wonder just what it really is that these astral travelers are experiencing. I have never had an astral experience.. yet I had the omnipresence experience and another experience about eternity, omnipresence, and pure ecstasy. I am very skeptical about this "spiritual" crap and I want to know what it really is.. so badly.

Salvia divinorum is a legal herb which is something like 100x more powerful than LSD (when taken in extracted form).I think one of the reasons it hasn't been targeted is that its not habit forming. I mean, I'd be AFRAID to meet the type of person who could be addicted to something like salvia. I've read experiences on-line from people who do all the crazy stuff like peyote and DMT and its pretty unaninimous, salvia's the one they think twice about. The experience I described was the second and last time I did it; the first time was truly insane. I wouldn't describe it as spiritual or astral, though some people might. More like a quick plunge into the mouth of madness. First the room around me dissolved like watercolors, smearing as I reached my hand out. Then I was just floating over a house I lived in as a kid, the only serene part of the experience. Next I was "flying" through a tunnel of colors, suspiciously and almost mockingly like the steretypical movie "tripping" sequences. Then, and this is the part that made me fear salvia, I started to come back to reality. My friends were leaning over me and the living room came back into focus, but then my friends started smiling evilly and twisting themselves into the shapes of letters. I started to get nervous, my voice breaking as I asked "wh-what are you guys doing?" Then everything fell apart, literally: The entire living room came apart, it was made of people all intertwined in such a way that the colors of their clothes and hair had given the illusion of a living room and the things in it (in retrospect, it was an awe inspiring scene), even the couch was made of guys in black sweaters with black hair hiding their faces. I threw myself off the couch and was pulled into the floor down a tunnel of people as I screamed in terror and watched my friends laugh at my descenet. the next thing i rememebr is kneeling on the floor staring at a candle as reality (I hope, who knows, maybe I still haven't come out of it, haha) came back into focus for real. What's really funny is that when I asked if I had thrown myself off the couch screaming, my friends said all i did was calmly get down on the floor and look around. When they asked me what I was looking for I said "I'm part of the O, I'm looking for the T." Weird, huh?

Yeah, I don't think I'd recommend salvia for spiritual enlightenment, haha (I wouldn't recommend drugs at all, anyway). If you want a similar but more bearable "astral" experience I'd  say lucid dreaming is the way to go. I've never really had the patience to practice it much, I just wait for the occassional random lucid dream nowadays, but back when I did make some attempts for a short period it wasn't really that hard.

One good thing I'll say about salvia, it had a lot to do with my not getting into drugs. For one, it made me nervous about them, and at the same time bored in advance.

The latest holy book should start with "My name is God, I'm 400 light-years old, and I do not make any sense. I am a tool of men who think women should be under their control. That part is what actually makes sense."

Hilarious!

[Kyuuketsuki]

Sounds a bit like my friends argumnet.

He reckons that if god is omnipotent & omniscient it is effectively immutable (never changing).

I never quite got it.

Kyu

[Miss Anthrope]

Sounds a bit like my friends argumnet.

He reckons that if god is omnipotent & omniscient it is effectively immutable (never changing).

I never quite got it.

Kyu

Yeah, i don't really get that either. Well, sort of, vaguely, like if something is so "100%" or "perfect" it can't be altered. Like if you had a pie that could not be cut or eaten, it would always remain a full pie. Wow, that was a pretty dumb analogy. time for me to get some sleep.

[Wechtlein Uns]

Lol, those astral projection thingies are completely false. If you wanted to experience and know what they actually mean, it's simple enough to just open your eyes. Sounds cheesy, I know, but that's the best way I can say it without coming off as a loony.  

[gwyn428]

Lol, those astral projection thingies are completely false. If you wanted to experience and know what they actually mean, it's simple enough to just open your eyes. Sounds cheesy, I know, but that's the best way I can say it without coming off as a loony.  

[McQ]

This is a really cool thread. I don't understand some of it, but I love it! Lot of new learning from you guys. Thanks for starting it up.

And that book, "The Unholy Legacy of Abraham".....where did I just learn about that? I heard of it very recently, but can't remember where. I was interested in picking it up. Glad to know someone is actually reading it.

Keep up this great thread!

[Miss Anthrope]

Lol, those astral projection thingies are completely false. If you wanted to experience and know what they actually mean, it's simple enough to just open your eyes. Sounds cheesy, I know, but that's the best way I can say it without coming off as a loony.  

I agree for the most part, though from personal experience I could see how, say, someone who lived 500 years ago could think that a lucid dream or similar experience was a form of "spiritual travel." I'm an intensely vivid dreamer, and if you count my frequent hypnogagic experiences while falling asleep, you could say my brain's default mode is "dream". I believe that such subjective experiences are the result of brain activity and not literally "going somewhere else", science has proved this. However, time and space (and thus even movement) are illusory to some degree (there is no Universal "Now" or "here/there"), so it could be argued that the mind doesn't actually have to leave the body. I don't believe we can discount certain seemingly "supernatural" experiences simlply because we can map the subjective experiences to brain activity until we have a better understanding of other things.

[gwyn428]

This is a really cool thread. I don't understand some of it, but I love it! Lot of new learning from you guys. Thanks for starting it up.

And that book, "The Unholy Legacy of Abraham".....where did I just learn about that? I heard of it very recently, but can't remember where. I was interested in picking it up. Glad to know someone is actually reading it.

Keep up this great thread!

You probably saw the advertisement on the Infidels website.

http://www.unholylegacy.woerlee.org
You can read about the book over there and even download the whole thing.

[McQ]

Thanks, for the link to the book, Gwyn. I downloaded it and I'm looking forward to reading it. And I must have heard about the download, because that's ringing a bell with me. Cool.

[Sophus]

I'll say. He's not even real!  

This is loosely related to my quasi-religious theory that I posted a while back explaining a God would be a creator and not a regulator. Meaning after creation of the universe God is sitting in a recliner watching as he inevitable is carried out. So I shot his title omnipotent "miracle-worker," and you killed omniscience being. Kudos.

[Miss Anthrope]

So I shot his title omnipotent "miracle-worker," and you killed omniscience being. Kudos.

"Damn it feels good to be a ganstah..."