What someone said to me today..

[Kevin]

For some reason, during 6th hour (I don't have one, so I wait somewhere when I got to stay after), me and about 3 other people that were just in the room with me started talking about religion.
This one girl REALLY knew what she was talking about.. In a sense. But she wouldn't really let me talk, you know, like she always wanted to talk, saying her beliefs, not really discussing, and mentioned the Bible a lot? (Now that I think about it, I should of gotten more into it with her.. Probably will when I stay after again on Thursday)

But she said that this is really why she believes:
"My mom put it to me this way when I was younger: Ignorant people believe in God because they just don't see how the Earth could of just gotten here. Smart people don't believe in God because they don't see how one could exist. Geniuses believe in God because they don't see how the Earth and Universe could be so perfect."
Or something like that.. That was the basic idea.

I got to thinking: In a way, that's true. But again, that's my problem with logic like that to try and prove God: That is all, ASSUMING. Then her next response was, "How is it so perfect, Kevin"? And honestly, I could barely get what I was going to say it.. She sucks trying to talk to about this.

But I do see the logic behind it. But think about it: The Universe is believed to be about 13.5-14 billion years old. I would sure damn hope that in those BILLIONS of YEARS, that the Universe, over time, would adapt to itself how it needs to be. That right there is kind of the explanation.
But then, I was glad when this other kid said, "Then where did your God come from"?
I then pointed out, though, that those 2 arguments are counter arguments out of ignorance from without knowing what you are talking about, and they stopped.

But her statement had me thinking for a bit.. I am not going to convert, of course, from that one statement. I know what I believe. But she had a good point. Me and her need to talk a bit more about religion sometime, and at some point, I'll probably have to say, "Seriously stfu and let me talk!"
:p

[curiosityandthecat]

Teleological argument.  

[Arthur Dent]

"X is too complex, orderly, adaptive, apparently purposeful, or beautiful to have occurred randomly or accidentally."

All things seek their lowest energy state or stability. This can break down a system's symmetry, forcing it to become asymmetrical, or complex. The best example of this is the unified theory, wherein as the energy levels of early particles decreased, stability was found, suddenly, in the form of atoms, and the forces that once were unified broke into distinct, new forces that acted in unique ways. Reality has it's own way of settling into order and becoming complex.

Furthermore, if something seems "too perfect" or "too convenient", like the structure of water, simply ask yourself, "well, why should I expect it to be any different?" Surely you will find that that these coincidences are just that, and that ice floats on water because it should, and don't ever think it shouldn't.

We humans have this strange affinity for thinking that we, in our exact form, are the only way a conscious being could exist. The reality though is that we have no idea how perfect things really are because we don't know how unique we really are. We could be one example of a conscious observer in an infinite sea of universes where other forms of consciousness have emerged.

And as we all know, evolution is a highly NON-random process.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Kevin,

I would answer something like this.

Yes the universe is complex, yes it could be argued to be perfect or even appear to be designed but that is is why we (science) are studying it, that is why we are trying to explain it and the fact is that no currently accepted scientific explanation either requests or requires the action of deity and the best that we can do with unanswered (presumed currently unanswerable) questions that science or anyone else might have is to leave them until evidence that does increase our understanding is uncovered, until then they remain what they were, unanswered questions. It may well be that a god created the universe and all within it but the fact that no current explanation has required the action of deity suggests that such answers, once found, will be naturalistic rather than otherwise and until there is evidence to support the existence of said god it is not unreasonable to accept that we don't know. Until then you have my (ahem) blessing to believe as you wish

And the question the girl asked rather suggests that she believes (something you seem to be almost buying into) that if you can't answer she must be right  and that is utterly preposterous ... to use the the words of biologist Richard Dawkins, "I don't want to sound callous. I mean, even if I have nothing to offer, that doesn't matter, because that still doesn't mean that what anybody else has to offer therefore has to be true."

Kyu

[Zarathustra]

"How is it so perfect, Kevin"? And honestly, I could barely get what I was going to say it..
But her statement had me thinking for a bit.. I am not going to convert, of course, from that one statement. I know what I believe. But she had a good point

What was the point, do you think?
Do you think that poor afro-american people from New Orleans consider the universe to be "perfect", for instance? It is still more assuming. It is a common argument though, and here is my favorite quote on the subject:
"...imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for." - Douglas Adams

Me and her need to talk a bit more about religion sometime, and at some point, I'll probably have to say, "Seriously stfu and let me talk!"
:p

Or just say in a calm voice: "Dominating the conversation like that, makes you seem rude and closed minded, do you know that? Others might also have a valid opinion on the subject." That usually does the trick with that sort.

[Sophus]

But a "genius" can believe that god just happened? And that the conditions were just right to support Him? Whenever this argument comes up I always like to refer to the Douglas Adams comment: "The puddle is certain that the hole in the ground he occupies must have been designed specifically for him because it fits him so well. The puddle exists under the sun until he has entirely evaporated."

Not to mention there's more than likely many, many universes which we haven't seen. So what exactly are we comparing our universe to that makes it so "perfect?"

As a matter of fact, it is probably more so that life is the way it is because it works around these conditions. It adapts. Life takes advantage of what the environment has to offer and works around it's negative attributes. In a universe with different natural laws we may still discover life, but it would look much different because it had different requirements it had to meet.

[Arthur Dent]

As a matter of fact, it is probably more so that life is the way it is because it works around these conditions. It adapts. Life takes advantage of what the environment has to offer and works around it's negative attributes. In a universe with different natural laws we may still discover life, but it would look much different because it had different requirements it had to meet.

I totally said this! lol...

[Sophus]

As a matter of fact, it is probably more so that life is the way it is because it works around these conditions. It adapts. Life takes advantage of what the environment has to offer and works around it's negative attributes. In a universe with different natural laws we may still discover life, but it would look much different because it had different requirements it had to meet.

I totally said this! lol...

Ha ha, really? I only read what you wrote after the marvelous Jesus picture    ....great minds think alike I suppose...  

[Kevin]

For some reason I get the idea you guys think I started to think this =\

I am really just wondering what you guys think of it.. I do see what's wrong with it, you know :p

But thanks for your responses. I got something to say to it now

[Arthur Dent]

For some reason I get the idea you guys think I started to think this =\

I am really just wondering what you guys think of it.. I do see what's wrong with it, you know :p

But thanks for your responses. I got something to say to it now It's one of the more compelling argument though, and if you're not familiar with cosmology or evolution, etc it sounds fairly solid. There are certain things in the universe which permit our existence or even the existence of stars, but we don't know if this universe is all there is. Even if it is, it's not that perfect, it's rather indifferent.

[youtube:3jmzyhsy]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mij4DYYnkF8[/youtube:3jmzyhsy]

[Kevin]

Yeah.

Well I got to stay after school tomorrow, so I will see her in the room during 6th hour, since she helps out in there and I hang out in there during 6th hour.we will probably have a nice little chat.

[Arthur Dent]

I just realized your location; Kentucky. An atheist in Kentucky.   You'll need all the firepower you can get.

[Kevin]

OMG, That video is great :p
He makes a GREAT point

And yep, Kentucky.. Home of the Creationist Museum... Or at least close enough to it, not sure where it is.
But my town isn't THAT bad, don't worry about it.. We just got 2 Christian clubs in our school.. No big deal -.-

[Whitney]

Kevin...I would have asked her why she thought the universe is perfect.  Perfection implies that someone had a goal for the universe and it achieved that goal.  So, by claiming perfection she is concluding a creator before she even started thinking about it.

[Kevin]

Yes,  I know.. When I look back on it, there is stuff I wished I had said.