Aren't we just God's puppets?

[Kevin]

I was thinking about this today in school, forgot what class, but it was probably insignificant.. Maybe Geometry? I forgot. But me and my friend were preaching to these 2 people in front of us the Flying Spaghetti Monster... It was hilarious :p
But I digress.
(NOTE: I will just specifically talk about Christianity. I usually do)

Ok, here was my thought: Ok, so, God created us? Alright, well, I have read that one of the "leaps of faith" for a Christian is that they have to accept that God DECIDED to create this universe. Another is that they have to accept that we (Humans) are God's special creation. OK, so, God wanted to create the Universe, and decided that we (Above all other estimated 10 million species) are his special ones, the ones that we will live on..

Ok, so Christians got that down. But then they start to learn about you HAVE to follow God's and Jesus's word and believe in them, or you burn in agony in Hell for all ETERNITY after you die. But if you do, you will go to paradise for all ETERNITY. (I capitalize ETERNITY for a reason.) At that point, you do have complete control over people, but then at that point, God has complete control over the believers.

Not just that, people also claim that they have known what to do because God or Jesus told them to. Well, that just adds on what I am going to say.

Well, it sounds like we are God's little puppets then, doesn't it? He controls his believers with an iron fist, making sure that they believe or go to Hell (Even though he doesn't like to show up TOO OFTEN, you know, he likes believe to "just believe".). That basically means that he controls their actions, like a puppeteer. And if people claim to have heard what to do from them, that just adds on. Like how God told Abraham to kill his son, Abraham became his puppet then, because of how he just did, well, was going to do, what God told him to.

I may not have explained well, I can't really unless I'm actually talking to you in person. But don't you see? It seems as if basically this God guy exists, then we are his puppets. He controls his believers thoughts and actions. If he/she/it or whatever exists, we are just his puppets, playing a little game of cops and robbers in his own way.

[curiosityandthecat]

[youtube:3eck5kut]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpA47o8E46U[/youtube:3eck5kut]

 

[Kevin]

I have seen that video
:p
It is honestly what got me started on really questioning my beliefs.

But I don't see the relavence in that :p

[curiosityandthecat]

But I don't see the relavence in that :p

It's basically an agreement.  

The faithful would counter and say that God has given us free will. We would counter that that goes against the concept of omniscience, as free will implies choice, and omniscience implies knowing the future, thus, in reality, there is no real choice as the end is predestined. They would, in turn, counter with the fact that God works in mysterious ways and we are evil. Or something along those lines.

The concept you're discussing is called a theodicy. Definitions and discussions (from both sides) can be found here, here and here. Specifically, it is the free will theodicy.

This fundamental problem with (specifically the Christian) religion is one of the main reasons many atheists are nonbelievers: it just doesn't make any sense.

So, in short, yes, you are right. Were there a Biblical, Christian God, we would be his puppets, which flies in the face of free will; alternatively, we have free will, and can make arbitrary, random choices, thus proving God not omniscient.

There are some theologians who claim God is like a giant quantum computer, thus the idea of knowing an infinite number of "threads" of action is not out of the question (think quantum superposition). I find it unconvincing.

[Kevin]

I find that computer thing weird, also. You could take the smart-ass response to that and say that computers were just recently invented :p

But thank you for agreeing with me. I like how you mentioned free-will. About 4 years ago, I guess when I believed, even though I have never been "religious", as people see it, and I would still say to myself, "God says that we must obey him and have no god's before him, but then why did he give us free will"?
Free will is the enemy of religion, as I see it.

[curiosityandthecat]

Free will isn't necessarily the enemy of religion, but it's definitely not it's best friend.   It just causes problems when the faithful try to concede to those they're trying to convert that their entire lives aren't already written in stone. If hey had stuck by their guns in the beginning--keeping faithful to the "God knows all" deal--it wouldn't be an issue. Still, when you try to bring in outsiders, you have to make concessions and sometimes, like with free will, it backfires.

The "You shall have no other gods before me" commandment is an interesting one: it implies the existence of other gods, of which the Christian god is just one. We know, of course, that many gods have been worshiped over the years, but the original writers of Exodus and Deuteronomy knew that, since they were promoting a monotheistic religion, they couldn't have people worshiping "God" as well as a god of the sun, a god of the ocean, etc. The old gods used to play with people, toying with their pitiful, human emotions. The new Christian god would relieve that drama, so long as he is worshiped exclusively (which, in turn, gives the religious figures ultimate power).

Criminals, the lot of 'em.

[Kevin]

I've seen a video on the commandment about that commandment; it does acknowledge the existence of other gods.
I don't know what to say right now

You really know what you are talking about

[MariaEvri]

[youtube:aoebf33s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpA47o8E46U[/youtube:aoebf33s]

 

I have seen that video
I dont know the man but I love him yep
Back to subject
Just the notion taht god knows all, even before you are born, does make man some sort of a puppet. Because no matter what you do in your future, god would have known all alone no?

[Kevin]

Yeah, I see it from your way, too.
Kind of like his "Divine Plan" for all of us.
We are already mapped out in what we are going to do.. Even more of a puppet.

[MariaEvri]

Yeah, I see it from your way, too.
Kind of like his "Divine Plan" for all of us.
We are already mapped out in what we are going to do.. Even more of a puppet.

so with that in mind, free will just doesnt exist!