calling all smarty pants

[Wraitchel]

I have a history question. A Christian friend, trying to support Prop 8, said that our First Amendment and its purpose of creating a wall between church and State was meant to keep government our of religion, and not the other way around. I KNOW Jefferson was against organized religion in any form, but I need more. I need to understand the dynamics of our early country. Who was here? How many different religions were represented at the time of the addition of the First Amendment? How can I support my argument that keeping religion out of government was equally important (anyone thinking about those old Reese's commercials about the chocolate and the peanut butter?)

Thanks.

[LARA]

Th term wall of separation between church and states is derived from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists:

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html


"...Religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

The wall of seperation exists to protect religion form the state but as Jefferson said,  "Religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God."  This wall like any other, protects both sides.  Religion is a private thing and for the government to start to stepping in to institute policies based solely on one religion's opinions or declare one religion for the country is violating the rights of anyone who does not accept that religion.  The Supreme Court has interpreted the first amendment to mean that all religious viewpoints have valid protection under it in past precedents.

Landmark cases according to the ACLU regarding the Supreme Courts opinion on religion are:

Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421The requirement by the state that a non-denominational prayer be recited in public schools at the beginning of each school day, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion in violation of the Establishment Clause.

Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203
The First Amendment Establishment Clause forbids state mandated reading of the bible or recitation of prayer in public school.

Epperson v. Arkansas, 393 U.S. 97
The Court overturned an Arkansas law, which prohibited the teaching of evolution because the theory of evolution conflicted with the account of the origin of man set forth in the Book of Genesis, on the ground that it violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

McDaniel v. Paty, 435 U.S. 618
A Tennessee law barring members of the clergy from public office was overturned on the ground that the law was in violation of the First Amendment right to the free exercise of religion because it conditioned the right to free exercise of religion on the surrender of the right to seek office.

Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668
The Establishment Clause does not prohibit the display of a creche in a municipal Christmas display.

Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578
A state cannot condition teaching evolution on the teaching of "creation science" at the same time because it violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

Allegheny County v. Greater Pittsburgh ACLU, 492 U.S. 573
The Court upheld the right of states to celebrate the Christmas holiday with a joint Menorah and Christmas tree display, but a nativity scene could not be displayed alone on the courthouse steps.

Employment Division v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872
Oregon had a compelling state interest in prohibiting sacramental peyote use, and thus could deny unemployment benefits to anyone who was dismissed from a job for smoking peyote.

Lee v. Weisman , 505 U.S. 577
Clergy-led prayer as part of an official public school graduation ceremony is in violation of the Establishment Clause.

Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520
Florida's ordinances, banning animal sacrifice, violated the First Amendment's Free Exercise of Religion Clause because they were not neutral and were targeting Santeria religion.

Rosenberg v. University of Virginia, 515 U.S. 819
When a public university provides funds for the printing costs of a variety of student publications, it cannot withhold the funds to a students' group that would otherwise qualify on the ground that their newspaper has religious content.

City of Boerne v. Flores, 521 U.S. 507
The enactment of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 (RFRA) was not a proper exercise of Congress' enforcement power because it contradicts vital principles necessary to maintain separation of powers and the federal state balance.

Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290
Permitting student-led and student-initiated prayer on state run school ground at football games violates the Establishment Clause
 

Cases from http://aclu.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=306


These cases illustrate the exceptional freedom of religious expression that we are granted under the establishment clause of the United States, but also the limitations of governmental authority to impose any religious exercise on citizens, especially in the area of public education.  The law really does protect us from having to follow laws based on a religious belief, and at the same time protects an individuals right to religious expression whole-heartedly.  It does not however protect the government in enforcement of religion.  The real test of gay marriage is whether or not the proponents of proposition 8 can find a believable non-religious reason for their establishing a definition of marriage as solely between a man and a woman.

[DennisK]

Look up quotes of our Founding Fathers (Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Washington) related to separation of church and state.  I always thought John Adams was a devote Christian and that most of the elite minds were the same until actually educating myself.  It's criminal how their views have been misconstrued by the Christians.

http://www.atheistempire.com/greatminds/index.php

[curiosityandthecat]

Don't forget about the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

[Wraitchel]

Wow, thanks for the responses. It is an interesting subject, isn't it. I would say I wish I had paid more attention to history in school, but in the seventies, history textbooks were rather biased toward the white christian. Perhaps it is better to seek out this learning now, when access to better information is so freely available.

Curio, that is an extra cool tidbit from the Treaty of Tripoli. I'll be discussing that one, for sure.

[Tanker]

We today are used to a society where in the western world religions are seperate for the governments of the countries they exist in. In the founding fathers time religion and goverenment were often different facets of the same whole. Religion and government were so intermingeled it would have been hard to tell where one started and one ended. At the point of the American revolution there had been litealy over 1000 years of state sponsered religious wars and I'm not just refering to the crusades. The 30 years war, various peasent revolts, the saxon wars, the French wars of religion, The constant battels of the holy roman empire (basicly the germans) against the turks (muslims) constant battles of different sects of christianity over shisms, ect, ect, ect. Not to mention all the religiously sposered injustices (they're different so lets persecute them) . Our founding fathers saw religions having influence or direct control over government as probably the greatest threat to mans pursuit of happieness and justce for all people. The seperation of church and state is more for the protection of the government and the people it serves then to protect religion. While war will probably always be a part of the human condition, in the western world, killing others for having a different faith, except for a few state sponsered exceptions, all but died off.

Faith having control of state = state sponsered religious war.