Organize to Evangelize

[rlrose328]

My son went to Sunday School with a friend on Sunday.  I've gotten to know the family and while dad is a fundie, Mom seems reasonable, former atheist, science-minded, believes in evolution and abiogenesis, etc.  They go to what I THOUGHT was a non-denominational church but turns out it's Baptist.

The kid said he had a great time (accidentally punching his friend in the nose notwithstanding)... they played games, had a snack, etc.  He said all he remembered from the religious stuff is "Jesus, obey, thee and thy" and some bible verse.  He said he wants to go back in October on a special day they are having where the kid who brings in the most guests to Sunday School gets to toss a pie in "Brother John's" face.  We said Maybe.

Well, today, we get an email to our son at his own email address that only his cousins in Arizona have.  NO ONE ELSE has this email address, not even Grandma.  It's from someone at the church and it's titled "Organize to Evangelize" and it's about some big campaign-like Sunday School they're going to have where there will be two candidates, a smear campaign, voting, etc., all in "fun" for the kids.

First, I didn't know the Kid had given his email address to them, so it was a surprise to get this.  Second, I didn't approve of them sending anything to my son.  A search for "Organize to Evangelize" is a book about getting more creative with geting people to attend your church, a big tenet of which is building your Sunday School program.  Gotta get 'em in early (and we all know why).  And third, a "smear campaign"?  Why do kids as young as Kindergarten need to know what a smear campaign is?  Isn't it bad enough that, as voting adults, we have to be exposed to that?  They're probably doing it in a "here's what it is and why it's bad" way... with a little "this is what Jesus said would happen to us as Christians" thrown in as well.  But I don't think it's appropriate.

If they want to brainwash their own children, fine.  But not mine.

I called my friend... she said it's all in jest, just a fun activity for the kids.  The smear campaign thing is just for fun, too.  I just asked her to make sure that all traces of my son are removed from that church.  I don't know if he left his phone number or any other identifying information, but I want it to be like he never went there.  How DARE they.

I know, I know... I'm probably getting all upset for nothing... but I hate how the religious prey on children to build their ranks.  

Yes, we're atheists... and we'll be seen that way at this church.  Fine.  But I didn't send my son there to collect THEIR email addresses.  We don't send out anything atheistic to the children at his school or from any churches.  We didn't send him there with atheistic or secular themed handouts.  If I had, all hell would have broken loose.

Why do I just have to sit back and say, "Oh well, no harm done."  And THEY claim THEY'RE discriminated against.

[HeStoppedTheRain]

Well, since he's just in kindergarten, I'd say not to let him go. He's so young that he'd probably be easily brainwashed. But... and, now, this is just my opinion, but I am a firm believer of it. I know it'll make you suicidal/homicidal, but when he gets older, I say you should let him get involved with Christianity. Despite your beliefs, he needs to figure out for himself if he is atheist or whatever else. Otherwise YOU'D just be brainwashing then. It really sucks, but you gotta let people be themselves, try and let him see both sides of the issue on a non- biased level. Ya dig? I hope this helps you somewhat...

[dodgecity]

Wow, rlrose328, that sucks! I suggest that you muster all the love you can for your child and decline the "pie in the face" day.

Also, I can't agree with HeStoppedTheRain. The whole "let your children decide" sounds nice, but you don't let your son decide to believe in nonsense. You don't let him harm himself in any other manner, do you? You wouldn't let him go to a cult. Baptists are no different. Being a parent is about teaching your son about REALITY. I feel the Angelina Jolie approach is pushed on us atheists as a social constraint.

[rlrose328]

Well, since he's just in kindergarten, I'd say not to let him go. He's so young that he'd probably be easily brainwashed. But... and, now, this is just my opinion, but I am a firm believer of it. I know it'll make you suicidal/homicidal, but when he gets older, I say you should let him get involved with Christianity. Despite your beliefs, he needs to figure out for himself if he is atheist or whatever else. Otherwise YOU'D just be brainwashing then. It really sucks, but you gotta let people be themselves, try and let him see both sides of the issue on a non- biased level. Ya dig? I hope this helps you somewhat...

My son is 8yo, gifted, and in 4th grade.  The program has activities in this Evangelize program for those as young as kindergarten.

He has attended church with his grandma on numerous occasions, we read the bible on occasion (have read the majority of a Children's Bible with him), and he knows what Christianity is.  While is knows full-well what I and my husband believe, he's far from brainwashed by us.  LOL!  He is his own person and has expressed a desire to explore Christianity.  But we haven't yet taken him to church on a regular basis in order to let him do so.

My problem with this email isn't that they want to expose him to Christianity... he's welcome to do that when he wishes.  My problem is that if we weren't screening his email in the spam program, we'd never have known he got it or that they were trying to gain another soul for god behind our backs.  Yes, they had no idea where that email address would go, but that's not the point.  If the parent is not with the child (i.e., a guest of a church member), they have no right to mine said child for personal information in order to evangelize to them.

A friend of mine in another state found out that the local churches were purchasing the contact information for all local school children from the school district... and the district was selling it to them!  She received letters from many of the local churches addressed directly to her daughters (kindergarten and 3rd grade) telling them about all the fun to be had while learning about Jesus.  THis family is Jewish.  

She complained and was told it was standard procedure and no one even thought twice about it.  Why is that okay?  What if I bought the contact information to send out a little letter about how there is no such thing as god?  All hell would break loose, as I said earlier.  They would be innundated with complaints and I'd be featured in the newspaper for trying to destroy the beliefs of small children.

My point... and I do have one, yes... is that they have no right to send out their propaganda to my son after his visiting their church just once.  And if they can, I should be able to send out stuff to their children declaring there is no god... and they have no right to complain.  (But we all know that wouldn't be the case.)

Persecution works both ways.

[rlrose328]

Wow, rlrose328, that sucks! I suggest that you muster all the love you can for your child and decline the "pie in the face" day.

Thanks, dodge... he won't be going to the pie face day... though *I* might pop by with a few pies of my own.  

Also, I can't agree with HeStoppedTheRain. The whole "let your children decide" sounds nice, but you don't let your son decide to believe in nonsense. You don't let him harm himself in any other manner, do you? You wouldn't let him go to a cult. Baptists are no different. Being a parent is about teaching your son about REALITY. I feel the Angelina Jolie approach is pushed on us atheists as a social constraint.

I agree with Rain to a point.  I don't believe any children under the age of 10 (or 13... arbitrarily chosen based on my son's temperament) should be subjected to any type of religion.  Science, yes... it has a basis in fact and reality.  But religion, no.  Exposure to science, fact, and reality isn't brainwashing, it's educating.

I feel that exposure to religion before the age of 10 or 13 IS brainwashing... they don't have the ability to reason what is fact, and what is truth presented by an adult which should be believed.  My son still "believes" in Santa despite KNOWING that Santa isn't real because we told him at such a young age that Santa IS real and brings presents.  He'll even grab a gift labeled "To Mom From Santa" and tell me it's from Dad, but he stubbornly refuses to acknowledge that Santa isn't real.

If we TELL our children that there is or isn't a god at such a young age, it is brainwashing either way because they will believe what a trusted adult tells them, regardless of facts.  Of course, our son has heard my husband and I talk (rant, more accurately) and is now confused because all of his school friends are believers and we're not... and he's going through a MASSIVE "want to belong" phase.

After the age of 13, they are free to explore because their minds have some life experience and they are more likely (not always, but a good percentage of them) to reason out what they are being told, separate fact from fiction and fairy tales.  We can guide, but we can't dictate.  In the end, a person will believe what they feel is true or them, unfortunately.  Some of choose reason... some of us choose fantasy and mythology.  My mom is a mythology person... and she couldn't survive any other way.  Reality is so terrifying to her, she clings to her belief like armor.

I wish I could return to the pre-knowledge days... when I could believe everything that I was told without question.  It was so much easier to trust everyone.

[dodgecity]

Again, you have an automatic win here because it's your child. But I simply do not agree with your definition of brainwashing. If you teach your child to look both ways to cross the street, would you call that brainwashing? Do you see what you're doing? You're putting religion in a special place where it's wrong to teach your child that nonsense is nonsense! (especially harmful nonsense) Teaching your child reality is not brainwashing, no way, no how.

[rlrose328]

Dodge, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

A belief in god IS separate.  Religion IS separate.  You can't compare crossing the street or playing with fire with a belief in god or religion.  Those things are physical and easy to prove to be dangerous.

It's the difference between fact and faith.  It is a fact that my child can possibly be injured if he crosses the street at the wrong time or if he plays with fire.  I don't have to have faith it may happen... it's a fact.

I define brainwashing as indoctrinating without facts to back up what is being presented.  THAT is exactly what religion is, from my point of view.  In that way, education is much different from brainwashing.  I educate my son to not cross the street or play with fire.  This church wants to brainwash my son with fun activities that god is real.  I will not tolerate that and that's why this email pissed me off.

Once he's old enough, he's more than welcome to explore that on his own, when I'm certain he can't be brainwashed as easily.

[dodgecity]

Sounds good to me.  :hail:

[rlrose328]

Sounds good to me.  :hail:

Aw. thanks...  :raised:  

I do see your point of view.  And before I had a child, that's exactly what I said, nearly verbatim.  Our points of view change at times in our lives and believe me, I do a LOT of things now that I said I wouldn't do before I had a child.     I sure do wish kids came with a manual!!