The Quran & Science

[risky]

Wonderfully easy, History has shown that muslims have done their share of scientific discoveries; in anatomy,medicine,math,astronomy etc etc

I don't disagree that Muslims have made advances. But if the Quran is the most scienfically accurate religious text, as you claim, it seems there should be more scientific advances from those who follow it 'as it should be followed'. Although there have been 'cherry pickers', shouldn't there also have been Muslims who would make the best and most exciting advances for the glory of Allah?

Could it be that the Quaran is no more scientifically accurate than any other ancient religious texts, as Muslims have had 'their share' of advancements but have not taken any significant lead in this arena?

“But if the Quran is the most scienfically accurate religious text, as you claim”

I have never claimed that, if I did could you direct me to the post?

“it seems there should be more scientific advances from those who follow it 'as it should be followed'.”

[spoiler:tptwf5p1]8th century
•   700s - [petroleum; civil engineering] The streets of the newly constructed Baghdad are paved with tar, coming from the petroleum that oozes in natural oil fields in the region.
•   700s - 800s - [cosmetics] Ziryab (Blackbird) starts a beauty institute in Spain.
•   740 - 828 - Al-Ama'i, Zoology, Botany, Animal husbandry.
•   770 - 840 - [mathematics] Kharazmi (Persian: خوارزÙ...ÙŠ, in Arabic became اÙ,,خوارزÙ...ÙŠ al-Khwarizmi, Latinized name Algorithm). Developed the "calculus of resolution and juxtaposition" (hisab al-jabr w'al-muqabala), more briefly referred to as al-jabr, or algebra. [1] gives an idea on the utility of this development: "Algebra was a unifying theory which allowed rational numbers, irrational numbers, geometrical magnitudes, etc., to all be treated as "algebraic objects". It gave mathematics a whole new development path so much broader in concept to that which had existed before, and provided a vehicle for future development of the subject. Another important aspect of the introduction of algebraic ideas was that it allowed mathematics to be applied to itself in a way which had not happened before. As Rashed writes in [2] (see also [3]):- Al-Khwarizmi's successors undertook a systematic application of arithmetic to algebra, algebra to arithmetic, both to trigonometry, algebra to the Euclidean theory of numbers, algebra to geometry, and geometry to algebra. This was how the creation of polynomial algebra, combinatorial analysis, numerical analysis, the numerical solution of equations, the new elementary theory of numbers, and the geometric construction of equations arose."
•   776 - 868 - [zoology; language] 'Amr ibn Bahr Al-Jahiz. Zoology, Arabic grammar, rhetoric, lexicography.
•   late 700s - early 800s - [music] Mansour Zalzal of Kufa. Musician (luth) and composer of the Abbasid era. Contributed musical scales that were later named after him (the Mansouri scale) and introduced positions (intervals) within scales such as the wasati-zalzal that was equidistant from the alwasati alqadima and wasati al-fors. Made improvements on the design of the luth instrument and designed the Luth. Teacher of Is-haq al-Mawsili.

9th century
•   800 - 873 - [various] Ibn Ishaq Al-Kindi (latinized, Alkindus.) Philosophy, Physics, Optics, Medicine, Mathematics, Cryptography, Metallurgy. Worked at the House of Wisdom which was set up in 810.
•   803 - [chemistry; glass] d. Abu-Moussa Jabir ibn Hayyan (Latinized name, Geber,). Famous Persian chemist. First chemist known to produce sulfuric acid, as well as many other chemicals and instruments. Wrote on adding color to glass by adding small quantities of metallic oxides to the glass, such as manganese dioxide (magnesia). This was a new advancement in glass industry unknown in antiquity. His works include "The elaboration of the Grand Elixir"; "The chest of wisdom" in which he writes on nitric acid; Kitab al-istitmam (translated to Latin later as Summa Perfectionis); and others.
•   ca. 810 Bayt al-Hikma (House of Wisdom) set up in Baghdad. There Greek and Indian mathematical and astronomy works are translated into Arabic.
•   820 - [mathematics] Mahani (full name Abu Abdollah Muhammad ibn Isa Mahani - in Arabic Al-Mahani). Conceived the idea of reducing geometrical problems such as duplicating the cube to problems in algebra. [1]
•   836 - 901 [anatomy; astronomy; mathematics; mechanics] Born Thabit Ibn Qurra (latinized, Thebit.) Studied at Baghdad's House of Wisdom under the Banu Musa brothers. Made many contributions to mathematics, particularly in geometry and number theory. He discovered the theorem by which pairs of amicable numbers can be found; i.e., two numbers such that each is the sum of the proper divisors of the other.[1] Later, al-Baghdadi (b. 980) and al-Haytham (born 965) developed variants of the theorem.
•   838 - 870 - Tabari (full name: Ali ibn Sahl Rabban Al-Tabari). Medicine, Mathematics, Calligraphy, Literature. [4]
•   mid 800s - [chemistry] Al-Kindi writes on the distillation of wine as that of rose water and gives 107 recipes for perfumes, in his book Kitab Kimia al-`otoor wa al-tas`eedat (book of the chemistry of perfumes and distillations.)
•   850 - 930 [mathematics] born Abu Kamil of Egypt (full name, Abu Kamil Shuja ibn Aslam ibn Muhammad ibn Shuja) Forms an important link in the development of algebra between al-Khwarizmi and al-Karaji. Despite not using symbols, but writing powers of x in words, he had begun to understand what we would write in symbols as  .[1]
•   858 - 929 - [astronomy - mathematics] Al-Battani (Albategnius) Works on astronomy, trigonometry etc.
•   ca. 860 - Al-Farghani (Al-Fraganus) Astronomy, Civil engineering.
•   864 - 930 - [chemistry; medicine; ...] Razi (Rhazes) Medicine, Ophthalmology, Smallpox, Chemistry, Astronomy. Al-Razi wrote on Naft (naphta or petroleum) and its distillates in his book "Kitab sirr al-asrar" (book of the secret of secrets.) When choosing a site to build Baghdad's hospital, he hung pieces of fresh meat in different parts of the city. The location where the meat took the longest to rot was the one he chose for building the hospital. Advocated that patients not be told their real condition so that fear or despair do not affect the healing process. Wrote on alkali, caustic soda, soap and glycerine. Gave descriptions of equipment processes and methods in his book Kitab al-Asrar (book of secrets) in 925.
•   870 - 950 - Farabi (Al-Pharabius) Sociology, Logic, Philosophy, Political science, Music.
•   888 - [various] Died 'Abbas Ibn Firnas. Mechanics of Flight, Planetarium, Artificial Crystals. Ibn Firnas investigated means of flight and was apparently injured due to a trial in which he attempted to fly off of a cliff using wings. One of the earliest records of attempts at flight.
•   800s - [chemistry; petroleum] Oilfields in Baku, Azerbaijan, generate commercial activities and industry. These oilfields, were wells are dug to get the Naft (or naphta, or crude petroleum) are described by geographer Masudi in the 10th century and by Marco Polo in the 13th century, who described the output of those wells as hundreds of shiploads.

10th century
•   900s [mathematics; accounting] By this century, three systems of counting are used in the Arab world. Finger-reckoning arithmetic, with numerals written entirely in words, used by the business community; the sexagesimal system, a remnant originating with the Babylonians, with numerals denoted by letters of the arabic alphabet and used by Arab mathematicians in astronomical work; and the Hindu-Arabic numeral system, which was used with various sets of symbols [1]. Its arithmetic at first required the use of a dust board (a sort of handheld blackboard) because "the methods required moving the numbers around in the calculation and rubbing some out as the calculation proceeded." Al-Uqlidisi (born 920) modified these methods for pen and paper use [1]. Eventually the advances enabled by the decimal system led to its standard use throughout the region and the world.
•   903 - 986 [astronomy] Al-Sufi (latinized name, Azophi).
•   920 [mathematics] Born al-Uqlidisi. Modified arithmetic methods for the Indian numeral system to make it possible for pen and paper use. Hitherto, doing calculations with the Indian numerals necessitated the use of a dust board as noted earlier.
•   936 - 1013 [medicine] Al-Zahrawi (latinized name, Albucasis) Surgery, Medicine. Called the "Father of Modern Surgery." [4]
•   940 - 997 [astronomy; mathematics] Muhammad Al-Buzjani. Mathematics, Astronomy, Geometry, Trigonometry.
•   940 [mathematics] Born Abu'l-Wafa al-Buzjani. Wrote several treatises using the finger-counting system of arithmetic, and was also an expert on the Indian numerals system. About the Indian system he wrote: "[it] did not find application in business circles and among the population of the Eastern Caliphate for a long time." [1] Using the Indian numeral system, abu'l Wafa was able to extract roots.
•   953 [mathematics] Born al-Karaji of Karaj and Baghdad (full name, Abu Bekr ibn Muhammad ibn al-Husayn Al-Karaji or al-Karkhi). Believed to be the "first person to completely free algebra from geometrical operations and to replace them with the arithmetical type of operations which are at the core of algebra today. He was first to define the monomials x, x2, x3, ... and 1 / x, 1 / x2, 1 / x3, ... and to give rules for products of any two of these. He started a school of algebra which flourished for several hundreds of years" [1]. Discovered the binomial theorem for integer exponents. [1] states that this "was a major factor in the development of numerical analysis based on the decimal system."
•   957 [geography; cartography; exploration; chemistry] died Abul Hasan Ali Al-Masudi, best known as a cartographer, was also a traveler historian, etc. Al-mas`oudi described his visit to the oilfields of Baku. Wrote on the reaction of alkali water with zaj (vitriol) water giving sulfuric acid.
•   965 - 1040 [mathematics; optics; physics] Born ibn al-Haitham (full name, ; latinized name, Alhazen). Possibly the first to classify all even perfect numbers (i.e., numbers equal to the sum of their proper divisors) as those of the form 2k âˆ' 1(2k âˆ' 1) where 2k âˆ' 1 is prime number [1]. Al-Haytham is also the first person to state Wilson's theorem. if p is prime than 1 + (p âˆ' 1)! is divisible by p. [1] says "It is called Wilson's theorem because of a comment by Waring in 1770 that John Wilson had noticed the result. There is no evidence that Wilson knew how to prove it. It was over 750 years later that Lagrange gave the first known proof to the statement in 1771.[1]
•   972 - 1058 [humanities] Al-Mawardi (Alboacen) Political science, Sociology, Jurisprudence, Ethics.
•   973 - 1048 [mathematics; physics] Abu Raihan Al-Biruni; Astronomy, Mathematics. Determined Earth's circumference.
•   980 [mathematics] Born al-Baghdadi (full name, ). Studied a slight variant of Thabit ibn Qurra's theorem on amicable numbers.[1] Al-Baghdadi also wrote texts comparing the three systems of counting and arithmetic used in the region during this period. Made improvements on the decimal system.
•   981 - 1037 [astronomy; mathematics; medicine; philosophy] Ibn Sina (Avicenna); Medicine, Philosophy, Mathematics, Astronomy.Is considered to be the father of modern medicine

11th century
•   1000s - [related] First wave of devastation of Muslim resources, lives, properties, institutions, and infrastructure over a period of one hundred years: Fall of Muslim Toledo (1085), Malta (1090), Sicily (1091) and Jerusalem (1099). Several Crusades.
•   1028 - 1087 - [astronomy] Al-Zarqali (Arzachel.) Invented the Astrolabe.
•   1044 or 1048 - 1123 [mathematics] Omar Al-Khayyam. Persian mathematician and poet. "Gave a complete classification of cubic equations with geometric solutions found by means of intersecting conic sections. Khayyam also wrote that he hoped to give a full description of the algebraic solution of cubic equations in a later work: 'If the opportunity arises and I can succeed, I shall give all these fourteen forms with all their branches and cases, and how to distinguish whatever is possible or impossible so that a paper, containing elements which are greatly useful in this art will be prepared.' " [1]. Extracted roots using the decimal system (the Indian numeral system). There is dispute whether the Maqamat, a famous diwan of poetry translated to English are actually his work.
•   1058 - 1111 [law; theology] Al-Ghazali (Algazel), judge and prolific thinker and writer on topics such as sociology, theology and philosophy. He critiqued the so-called Greek philosophers Ibn Sina, aka Avicenna and al-Farabi, aka Farabius. Wrote extensive expositions on Islamic tenets and foundations of jurisprudence. Also critiqued the Muslim scholastics (al-mutakallimun.) Was associated with sufism but he later critiqued it as well.
•   1091 - 1161 [medicine] Ibn Zuhr (Avenzoar) Surgery, Medicine.
•   1099 - 1166 [cartography;geography] Muhammad Al-Idrisi (Dreses). Among his works are a world Map and the first known globe.

12th century
•   1100 - 1166 (AH 493 - 560) [cartography, geography] Muhammad al-Idrissi, aka Idris al-Saqalli aka al-sharif al-idrissi of Andalusia and Sicily. Said to draw the first correct map of the world "lawh al-tarsim" (plank of draught). His maps were used extensively during the explorations of the era of European renaissance. Roger II of Sicily commemorated his world map on a circle of silver weighing about 400 pounds. Works include Nozhat al-mushtaq fi ikhtiraq al-&agrav;faq dedicated to Roger II of Sicily, which is a compendium of the geographic and sociologic knowledge of his time as well as descriptions of his own travels illustrated with over seventy maps; Kharitat al-`alam al-ma`mour min al-ard (Map of the inhabited regions of the earth) wherein he divided the world into 7 regions, the first extending from the equator to 23 degrees latitude, and the seventh being from 54 to 63 degrees followed by a region uninhabitable due to cold and snow.
•   1106 - 1138 [polymath] Abu Bakr Muhammad Ibn Yahya (Ibn Bajjah) Philosophy, Medicine, Mathematics, Astronomy, Poetry, Music.
•   1110 - 1185 [literature, philosophy] Abdubacer Ibn Tufayl of Spain. Philosophy, medicine, poetry, fiction. His most famous work is Hayy ibn Yaqzan, which is a spiritual investigation into the reality of the world narrated by a man who was raised from infancy by a roe or gazelle.
•   1128 - 1198 [philosophy] Ibn Rushd (Averroes) Philosophy, Law, Medicine, Astronomy, Theology.
•   1130 [mathematics] Born al-Samawal. An important member of al-Karaji's school of algebra. Gave this definition of algebra: "[it is concerned] with operating on unknowns using all the arithmetical tools, in the same way as the arithmetician operates on the known." [1]
•   1135 [mathematics] Born Sharafeddin Tusi. Follows al-Khayyam's application of algebra of geometry, rather than follow the general development that came through al-Karaji's school of algebra. Wrote a treatise on cubic equations which [3] describes thus: "[the treatise] represents an essential contribution to another algebra which aimed to study curves by means of equations, thus inaugurating the beginning of algebraic geometry." (quoted in [1]).

13th century
•   1200s - [related] "Second wave of devastation of Muslim resources, lives, properties, institutions, and infrastructure over a period of one hundred and twelve years. Crusader invasions (1217-1291) and Mongol invasions (1219-1329). Crusaders active throughout the Mediterranean from Jerusalem and west to Muslim Spain. Fall of Muslim Córdoba (1236), Valencia (1238) and Seville (1248). Mongols devastation from the eastern most Muslim frontier, Central and Western Asia, India, Persia to Arab heartland. Fall of Baghdad (1258) and the end of Abbasid Caliphate. Two million Muslims massacred in Baghdad. Major scientific institutions, laboratories, and infrastructure destroyed in leading Muslim centers of civilization."
•   1200s - [medicine; scientific method] Ibn Al-Nafis b. ca. 607AH, d. ca. 689AH. Damascene physician and anatomist. Discovered the lesser circulatory system (the cycle involving the ventricles of the heart and the lungs), and described the mechanism of breathing and its relation to the blood and how it nourishes on air in the lungs. Followed a "constructivist" path of the smaller circulatory system: "blood is purified in the lungs for the continuance of life and providing the body with the ability to work". During his time, the common view was that blood originates in the liver then travels to the right ventricle, then on to the organs of the body; another contemporary view was that blood is filtered through the diaphragm where it mixes with the air coming from the lungs. Ibn al-Nafis discredited all these views including ones by Galen and Avicenna (ibn Sina). At least an illustration of his manuscript is still extant. William Harvey explained the circulatory system without reference to ibn al-Nafis in 1628. Ibn al-Nafis extolled the study of comparative anatomy in his "Explaining the dissection of [Avicenna's] Al-Qanoon" which includes a prefaces, and citations of sources. Emphasized the rigours of verification by measurement, observation and experiment. Subjected conventional wisdom of his time to a critical review and verified it with experiment and observation, discarding errors.
•   1200s - [chemistry] Al-Jawbari describes the preparation of rose water in the work "Book of Selected Disclosure of Secrets" (Kitab kashf al-Asrar).
•   1200s - [chemistry; materials; glassmaking] Arabic manuscript on the manufacture of false gemstones and diamonds. Also describes spirits of alum, spirits of saltpetre and spirits of salts (hydrochloric acid).
•   1200s - [chemistry] An Arabic manuscript written in syriac script gives description of various chemical materials and their properties such as sulfuric acid, sal-ammoniac, saltpetre and zaj (vitriol).
•   1201 - 1274 - [astronomy; mathematics] Nasir Al-Din Al-Tusi; Astronomy, Non-Euclidean geometry.
•   1204 [astronomy] Died, Al-Bitruji (Alpetragius.)
•   1207 - 1273 [sociology; poetry; spirituality] Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi, one of the best known Persian passion poets, famous for poignant poetry on the theme of spiritual enlightenment and passion.
•   1213 - 1288 [anatomy] Ibn Al-Nafis al-Damishqui.
•   1248 - [pharmacy; veterinary medicine] Died Ibn Al-Baitar. Studied and wrote on botany, pharmacy and is best known for studying animal anatomy and medicine. The Arabic term for veterinary medicine is named after him.
•   1260 [mathematics] Born al-Farisi. Gave a new proof of Thabit ibn Qurra's theorem, introducing important new ideas concerning factorization and combinatorial methods. He also gave the pair of amicable numbers 17296, 18416 which have also been joint attributed to Fermat as well as Thabit ibn Qurra [1].
•   1273 - 1331 [astronomy; geography; history] Abu al-Fida (Abulfeda).
•   1277 - [materials; glass and ceramics] A treaty for the transfer of glassmaking technology signed between the crusader Bohemond VII, titular prince of Antioch and the Doge of Venice leads to the transfer of Syrian glassworkers and their trade secrets and the subsequent rise of Venetian glass industry, the most prominent in Europe for centuries. The techniques henceforth, closely guarded by Venitians only become known in France in the 1600s.

14th century
•   1301 - [ceramics] Al-Kashani promotes a center for ceramics. He also writes a book on Islamic ceramics techniques. His name is still associated with ceramics in the Muslim Orient today.
•   1304 - 1369 [exploration; travel] Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Battuta; World Traveler. 75,000 mile voyage from Morocco to China and back.
•   1332 - 1395 [history; political science; humanities] Ibn Khaldun. Sociology, Philosophy of History, general science, Political Science. His most famous work, al-Muqqadima (Prolegomena), encyclopedic in breadth, surveys the state of knowledge of his day, covering geography, accounts of the peoples of the world and their known history, the classification and aims of the sciences and the religious sciences.
•   1380 [mathematics] Born al-Kashi. According to [1], "contributed to the development of decimal fractions not only for approximating algebraic numbers, but also for real numbers such as pi. His contribution to decimal fractions is so major that for many years he was considered as their inventor. Although not the first to do so, al-Kashi gave an algorithm for calculating nth roots which is a special case of the methods given many centuries later by Ruffini and Horner."
•   1393 - 1449 - [astronomy] Ulugh Beg commissions an observatory at Samarqand in present-day Uzbekistan.

15th century
•   1400s - 1500s - [related] Third wave of devastation of Muslim resources, lives, properties, institutions, and infrastructure. End of Muslim rule in Spain (1492). More than one million volumes of Muslim works on science, arts, philosophy and culture were burnt in the public square of Vivarrambla in Granada. Colonization began in Africa, Asia, and the Americas. Refer to "A Chronology of Muslim History Parts IV, V (e.g., 1455, 1494, 1500, 1510, 1524, and 1538)"
•   1400s [mathematics] Ibn al-Banna and al-Qalasadi used symbols for mathematics in the 15th century "and, although we do not know exactly when their use began, we know that symbols were used at least a century before this." [1]
•   1400s - [astronomy and mathematics] Ibn Masoud (Ghayyathuddin Jamshid ibn mohamed ibn mas`oud, d. 1424 or 1436.) First to use the decimal point in arithmetic. Wrote on the decimal system. First to introduce the zero (Indian mathematicians had used only nine glyphs for numerals). Computed and observed the solar eclipses of 809AH, 810AH and 811AH, after being invited by Ulugh Bek, based in Samarqand to pursue his study of mathematics, astronomy and physics. His works include "The Key of arithmetics"; "Discoveries in mathematics"; "The Decimal point"; "the benefits of the zero". The contents of the Benefits of the Zero are an introduction followed by five essays: On whole number arithmetic; On fractional arithmetic; on astrology; on areas; on finding the unknowns [unknown variables]. He also wrote a "Thesis on the sine and the chord"; "thesis on the circumference" in which he found the ratio of the circumference to the [[[radius]] of a circle to the 16th decimal; "The garden of gardens" or "promenade of the gardens" describing an instrument he devised and used at the Samarqand observatory to compile an ephemeris, and for computing solar and lunar eclipses; The ephemeresis "Zayj Al-Khaqani" which also includes mathematical tables and corrections of the ephemeresis by Al-Tusi; "Thesis on finding the first degree sine"; and more.
•   1411 [mathematics] Al-Kashi writes Compendium of the Science of Astronomy [5].
•   1424 [mathematics] Al-Kashi writes Treatise on the Circumference giving a remarkably good approximation to pi in both sexagesimal and decimal forms [5].
•   1427 [mathematics] Al-Kashi completes The Key to Arithmetic containing work of great depth on decimal fractions. It applies arithmetical and algebraic methods to the solution of various problems, including several geometric ones and is one of the best textbooks in the whole of medieval literature [5].
•   1437 [mathematics] Ulugh Beg publishes his star catalogue Zij-i Sultani. It contains trigonometric tables correct to eight decimal places based on Ulugh Beg's calculation of the sine of one degree which he calculated correctly to 16 decimal places [5].

17th century
•   1600s [flight; rocketry] Turkish scientist Hezarfen Ahmet Celebi took off from Galata tower and flew over the Bosphorus. Lagari Hasan Çelebi, another member of the Celebi family, sent the first manned rocket, using 150 okka (about 300 pounds) of gunpowder as the firing fuel. This is more than two hundred years before similar attempts in Modern Europe and the United States.
•   1600s [mathematics] The Arabic mathematician Mohammed Baqir Yazdi joint discovered the pair of amicable numbers 9,363,584 and 9,437,056 along with Descartes (1636) [2].
  Galata or Galatae is a district in Istanbul, the largest city of Turkey. ...      November 5, 1605 ââ,¬â€ The Gunpowder Plot to blow up the British Parliament. ... Amicable numbers are two numbers so related that the sum of the proper divisors of the one is equal to the other, unity being considered as a proper divisor but not the number itself. ...  

18th century
•   1783 - 1799 - [rocketry] Tipu, Sultan of Mysore [1783-1799] in the south of India, was an experimenter with war rockets. Two of his rockets, captured by the British at Srirangapatana, are displayed in the Woolwich Royal Artillery Museum in London. The rocket motor casing was made of steel with multiple nozzles. The rocket, 50 mm in diameter and 250 mm long, had a range performance of 900 meters to 1.5 km. (src: http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/).

Source:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... amic-world[/spoiler:tptwf5p1]

__________________________________________________________________________________________
''Why did Muslim science decline?'' he said. ''That's a very Western question. It flourished for a thousand years -- no civilization on Earth has flourished that long in that way.''

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... gewanted=3

__________________________________________________________________________________________


(What the rest of the world produced during that time period (not much diversity lol... Probably why they called it the "Dark Ages" ) -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_invention )

[myleviathan]

“But if the Quran is the most scienfically accurate religious text, as you claim”

I have never claimed that, if I did could you direct me to the post?

Do you disagree? Do you think there is a religious text that is more scientifically accurate than the Quran? C'mon (lol)! That's been a major theme in each of your posts.

Regarding your lengthy list of Muslim contributions - no one disagrees with you. Muslims made contributions. They should get credit for those.

But to claim the hard work of others as part of your own religious heritage is morally wrong. You're attempting to glorify your God (and yourself, in essense) with advancements made by non-muslims. It seems that Allah is the type of God that would want His own people to discover the wonderful things that you say he prophesied in the scriptures of old. Why would he include prophecies in His sacred text, just to have infidels make the actual discoveries? And furthermore to have His own people attempt to convince atheists that Allah knew all along? It doesn't make sense.

[risky]

Do you disagree? Do you think there is a religious text that is more scientifically accurate than the Quran? C'mon (lol)! That's been a major theme in each of your posts.

I don't know you tell me. ; )

But to claim the hard work of others as part of your own religious heritage is morally wrong. You're attempting to glorify your God (and yourself, in essense) with advancements made by non-muslims. It seems that Allah is a God that would want his own people to discover these things that you say he prophesied in the scriptures of old. Why would he make a prophecy and then have infidels make the true discoveries, and then have his people try to convince atheists that Allah knew all along? It doesn't make sense.

Really it took me a while to understand what you were saying (a few seconds lol it didn't register)... Do you not understand the Concept of God? That should really answer your question, I don't think i have to explain it lol... but i guess i kinda will.. lol as for people who don't believe in Islam making the 'true' discoveries, lol i could argue they were never discoveries but merely uncovering the way the universe works... and God has already stated that for us.. we're just reaffirming what God has already revealed to us.. lol i mean come on does it matter who uncovered/'discovered' it? It has been there for 1,400 years does it make a difference who realized that it was really so and the Quran was right/correct all along with its verses...? Seriously just consider the fact that it is in this book of "old" ; )

you say he prophesied in the scriptures of old

Prophesied in the "scriptures" of old? (Its one Book btw, its not a set of 'books' like the bible)

Prophesy: "to predict a future event under the influence of divine guidance."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de ... tnG=Search

'To predict a future event'... O_O it was not predicted/prophesied BY Allah (God) lol it was stated...  But to everyone else here it was a 'guess', by Muhammed; not even a prophecy but a 'guess', that was by chance 'correct'

It seems that Allah is a God that would...

This Allah is the same God, Jews and Christians worship. (Well in the matter of Christians, i guess it would be considered past tense b/c they now add Jesus and the holy ghost into the mix, that was not always the case though...mmm nvm just b/c they attribute to god doesn't mean..well.. they don't kinda worship God.. lol hmm... lol good Q : )  Like Jesus who came to 'guide' the Jews after they became corrupted/deviated from the Religion, Muhammed came after 'Christianity' (Jesus never called Christianity, Christianity you can thank Emperor Constantine for that & the trinity) became corrupted.. (If you don't think it has lol look into the origins of Christmas; &, mithrism and Christianity) and there was no 'guidance' lol sooo as muslims we do believe in the prophets david,abraham,isaac, jesus, etc.. lol enough of that.. Allah is the same God. (Allah can never be plural/etc no such thing as Allah's; like God can become Gods lol...) [I think i drifted to much lol]

[curiosityandthecat]

i mean come on does it matter who uncovered/'discovered' it?

Obviously, it does; your entire point is based upon this.

[risky]

i mean come on does it matter who uncovered/'discovered' it?

Obviously, it does; your entire point is based upon this.

Fantastic your right; so your telling me what they discovered/uncovered is false? Because i could dispute you on that matter.

In any case it only strengthens the validity if someone who is not Muslim discovered it lol.. one would only wonder.. if a Muslim had discovered it, it would be to much of a coincidence... ; ) your right it matters and it only fortifies my position

[curiosityandthecat]

Postdiction is not scientific discovery.

[myleviathan]

In any case it only strengthens the validity if someone who is not Muslim discovered it lol.. one would only wonder.. if a Muslim had discovered it, it would be to much of a coincidence... ; ) your right it matters and it only fortifies my position

No offense, Risky - but this statement doesn't make sense. You're saying that your religious text contains forknowledge of highly advanced scientific discovery. Wouldn't Allah wish to be glorified by his followers making the discoveries He stated in the Quran? Why would it be too much of a coincidence for this to happen? I think that would strengthen your case.

[risky]

No offense, Risky - but this statement doesn't make sense. You're saying that your religious text contains forknowledge of highly advanced scientific discovery. Wouldn't Allah wish to be glorified by his followers making the discoveries He stated in the Quran? Why would it be too much of a coincidence for this to happen? I think that would strengthen your case.

Does it disprove anything I've posted? Tell me that?

Postdiction is not scientific discovery.

Show me how what I've posted is Postdiction.

(According to Wiki: "According to critics of paranormal beliefs, postdiction (or post-shadowing, retroactive clairvoyance, or prediction after the fact) is an effect of hindsight bias that explains claimed predictions of significant events, such as plane crashes and natural disasters. In religious contexts it is frequently referred to by the Latin term vaticinium ex eventu, or foretelling after the event. Through this term, critics claim that many biblical prophecies (and similar prophecies in other religions) that may appear to have come true were in fact written after the events supposedly predicted, or that their text or interpretation were modified after the event to fit the facts as they occurred." Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postdiction)

Please go through each one of the verses I've posted and show how it's considered postdiction; rather then state it's Postdiction/Vague show me; enlighten me.

[curiosityandthecat]

"He hath loosed the two seas. They meet. There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other)."
55:19-20
_______________________________________________________________

"Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them." (1)

"It is a necessity that seas intermingle through straits between them. The Koran however is aware of a very unusual phenomenon, which scientists discovered only recently. The Mediterranean and Atlantic oceans differ in their chemical and biological constitution. The French scientist Jacques Yves Cousteau conducted various undersea investigations at the Strait of Gibraltar and explaining these phenomena concluded:

"Unexpected fresh water springs issue from the southern and northern coasts of Gibraltar. These mammoth springs gush towards each other at angles of 45 degrees forming a reciprocal dam. Due to this fact the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Oceans cannot intermingle (as quoted by Nurbaki)." (2)

According to the Cousteau Society; Jacques Yves was born on 11 June 1910 & Died on 25 June 1997. (3)


Sources:
1- http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf
2- http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistgr ... ence.shtml
3- http://www.cousteau.org/jyc.html
___________________________________________________________________________________
For more on Jacques Yves visit:  http://www.infoplease.com/biography/var ... steau.html

Taken from a website you yourself have cited (in the quote above), http://www.bigissueground.com:

The Qur’an has other errors of nature, where 51:49, says of life in creation, "And of everything we have created pairs that ye may reflect" (see also 43:12; 50:7). So for all animals they are created in pairs. This is an obvious denial of the fact that numerous species produce asexually, not in pairs.

The Qur’an also contains scientific anachronisms of longevity. The Qur’an 18:25 tells the story of some men who slept in a cave for 309 years. Why they did not die very soon due to dehydration and lack of sunlight is not explained.

The Qur’an has many genetic myths about how humans are born, etc. The Qur’an 86:6-7 says that semen comes from between a man's backbone and ribs. We know today from biology studies that semen comes from the male genitalia, so once again, a very inaccurate statement coming from the Qur’an.

Qur’an 2:261 tells us that every ear of corn has 100 grains. This has not been proven scientifically and is more than obviously false. It brings into question the scientific accuracy of the Qur’an and whether the Qur’an is really addressing scientific issues

Qur’an 27:18, tells the story of a talking ant in the time of King Solomon. Ants do not communicates with words, but with scent and smell, etc. This is a scientific error, regarding nature.

The Qur'an is not a scientific text. Do not labor under the apprehension that verses interpreted as such can prove anything, short of interesting coincidences. Nostradamus may have made some startlingly accurate predictions, but that does not give him credence as a conduit for God.

Let's continue with your quoting from the Wikipedia definition of "postdiction."

After the event has occurred, however, details are shoehorned into the prediction by the psychics or their supporters using selective thinking â€" emphasize the "hits", ignore the "misses" â€" in order to lend credence to the prophecy and give the impression of an accurate "prediction". Inaccurate predictions are simply not mentioned.

The defines your account of the scientific "accuracies" of the Qur'an.

You may have all the arguments laid out, spread before you, ready to pick and present to us. I can imagine you've done this a dozen times; that you probably have some formal education involving Qur'an apologetics. I do not. What I do have is an honest and sincere view of science, history, and the English translation of the Qur'an. You may say, as has been said before, that any translation is no longer the Qur'an, as the Qur'an is the divine word of Allah and cannot be altered. Indeed, the Qur'an itself is akin to Christ in the Christian tradition: the personification, the living, tangible God. And I understand: if the Qur'an is the unfailing, unchangeable, pure word of God, then any inaccuracy or mistake brings the whole house of cards down. There is a lot to lose. It must all be correct or none of it is.

Well, we do not believe it is such a holy book. We do not believe it is the word of any god, save man, who so truly wishes to be god. We believe it is an honest, if misguided, attempt to understand the world and control a population. Likewise, the attempt to turn (admittedly poetic and rather beautiful) phrases into something more than an antiquated moral guidebook is offensive to both any modern thinker's sensibility and to anyone who properly understands the definition of science:

In modern use, often treated as synonymous with ‘Natural and Physical Science’, and thus restricted to those branches of study that relate to the phenomena of the material universe and their laws, sometimes with implied exclusion of pure mathematics. This is now the dominant sense in ordinary use.

In order to bring the Qur'an into the realm of science it must necessarily be removed from the realm of metascience, i.e., religion. One does not study The Origin of Species as a spiritual text; nor does one study The Watchtower as scientific text.

Have your cake or eat it; do not attempt both.

[risky]

Taken from a website you yourself have cited (in the quote above), http://www.bigissueground.com:

I don’t see what this proves lol ( fyi the link isn't working  )

The Qur’an has other errors of nature, where 51:49, says of life in creation, "And of everything we have created pairs that ye may reflect" (see also 43:12; 50:7). So for all animals they are created in pairs. This is an obvious denial of the fact that numerous species produce asexually, not in pairs.

The Qur’an also contains scientific anachronisms of longevity. The Qur’an 18:25 tells the story of some men who slept in a cave for 309 years. Why they did not die very soon due to dehydration and lack of sunlight is not explained.

The Qur’an has many genetic myths about how humans are born, etc. The Qur’an 86:6-7 says that semen comes from between a man's backbone and ribs. We know today from biology studies that semen comes from the male genitalia, so once again, a very inaccurate statement coming from the Qur’an.

Qur’an 2:261 tells us that every ear of corn has 100 grains. This has not been proven scientifically and is more than obviously false. It brings into question the scientific accuracy of the Qur’an and whether the Qur’an is really addressing scientific issues

Qur’an 27:18, tells the story of a talking ant in the time of King Solomon. Ants do not communicates with words, but with scent and smell, etc. This is a scientific error, regarding nature.

I’ll take care of each one for you.

“The Qur’an has other errors of nature, where 51:49, says of life in creation, "And of everything we have created pairs that ye may reflect" (see also 43:12; 50:7). So for all animals they are created in pairs. This is an obvious denial of the fact that numerous species produce asexually, not in pairs. “

“We know from elementary particle physics that EVERY THING,or EVERYTHING, depending on the translation used, that is visible or invisible to the naked eyes, is made up of matter (or antimatter), which is in turn made up of particles. We also know that for EVERY TYPE of particle there is an antiparticle. This is one possible explanation on how "OF every thing" or "OF everything", we get pairs: Particles and antiparticles. "All things" or "everything" , can be seen as belonging to one those groups: Particles or their corresponding antiparticles, such as a proton and an antiproton (same mass but of opposite electric charge), an electron and a positron (same mass but of opposite electric charge), a neutron and an antineutron, and more recently scientists have known about quarks, and anti-quarks!

Here is a link for a proof of what i am saying (it is quite technical, from Stanford University): http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/vvc/theor ... uarks.html"

( Source: http://commonsensemessiah.blogspot.com/ ... s-are.html )

“The Qur’an also contains scientific anachronisms of longevity. The Qur’an 18:25 tells the story of some men who slept in a cave for 309 years. Why they did not die very soon due to dehydration and lack of sunlight is not explained.”

Did you bother to read how they were put to sleep? Who put them to sleep for that number of years? God put them to ‘sleep’ for that long, if he could do that; couldn’t he sustain their lives? Not science but a miracle, but wait your source doesn't tell you that.. hmm.. deceitful.. (Also the Quran does not state that it was 309 years, your source is again flawed)

“The Qur’an has many genetic myths about how humans are born, etc. The Qur’an 86:6-7 says that semen comes from between a man's backbone and ribs. We know today from biology studies that semen comes from the male genitalia, so once again, a very inaccurate statement coming from the Qur’an. “

“7… ‘Let now man think from what he is created - he is created from a drop, emitted from a space between the backbone and the ribs’.

Today we have come to know, the genital organs- the testes, in the males, and the ovaries in the female, in the Embryonic stage - they develop from a space, where the kidney is present today, between the backbone and the 11th and 12th rib. Later on the testes they descend to the inguinal canal, into the scrotum - and the ovaries in the female to the true pelvis.

But in the embryonic stage, it is in the space, which the Qur'an speaks about…‘between the backbone, the spinal column and the 11th and 12th rib’. Even in the adult life after the Genital organs they descend - yet they receive the blood supply - the nerve supply and the lymphatic drainage from the same space between the spinal column and the 11th and 12th rib

http://www.hmc.psu.edu/childrens/health ... hidism.htm “

Source: http://www.answering-christianity.com/b ... buttal.htm

“Qur’an 2:261 tells us that every ear of corn has 100 grains. This has not been proven scientifically and is more than obviously false. It brings into question the scientific accuracy of the Qur’an and whether the Qur’an is really addressing scientific issues”

“The parable of those who spend their substance in the way of Allah is that of a grain of corn: it groweth seven ears, and each ear Hath a hundred grains. Allah giveth manifold increase to whom He pleaseth: And Allah careth for all and He knoweth all things.” (2:261)

Your source is taking this verse out of context.  

“Qur’an 27:18, tells the story of a talking ant in the time of King Solomon. Ants do not communicates with words, but with scent and smell, etc. This is a scientific error, regarding nature.”

“
A.   "At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it," (27:18).
B.   "Till, when they reached the Valley of the Ants, an ant exclaimed: O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving," (27:18, Pickthal, trans.).

In verse 18, the Quran says
At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."

The Quran doesn’t say how the ant said it, but it just said that it said it. Somehow, the ant communicated to the other ants. …ants indeed do communicate.

The Quran does not say that the ant communicated by sound.

In verse 19, the Quran says
He smiled and laughed at her statement, and said, "My Lord, direct me to be appreciative of the blessings You have bestowed upon me and my parents, and to do the righteous works that please You. Admit me by Your mercy into the company of Your righteous servants."

The verse does not say that Solomon heard the statement; it basically shows that he understood the statement (not by speech) of the ant.
When the verses are closely examined, there are no scientific errors.”

Source: http://www.answering-christianity.com/b ... buttal.htm

“Let's continue with your quoting from the Wikipedia definition of "postdiction."

 

After the event has occurred, however, details are shoehorned into the prediction by the psychics or their supporters using selective thinking â€" emphasize the "hits", ignore the "misses" â€" in order to lend credence to the prophecy and give the impression of an accurate "prediction". Inaccurate predictions are simply not mentioned.

Wonderful, you haven’t posted any “misses”.

"formal education” in this matter?

Lawl I’m considered self trained ; )

[myleviathan]

Does it disprove anything I've posted? Tell me that?

You cannot prove that the Quran has special forknowledge of advanced scientific principles any more than I can disprove it. Therefore I don't think proof is the most important element of our discussion. What I do feel is important is whether your claim is likely or not. In other words I'm not as interested in proof as I am in the likelihood that what you claim is true. Your claim is that the Quran contains forknowledge of advanced scientific acheivements.

To judge the likelihood of your claim, first I would ask what support can you demonstrate that proves the author of the Quran is on the same wave-length as you are. Would he have any concept of the things you have posted here? Since he lived so long ago I doubt you have any such support. This hurts the likelihood of your claim. It doesn't disprove it, but it does hurt the likelihood.

Supposing he did have the knowledge you say he did, then he would have had knowledge of orbits, fingerprints, oceanology, atoms, etc... So why wouldn't he have written it more explicitly, and in more detail? It's always been the pleasure of highly observant and scientifically productive men to explain every minute detail of their theories. The verses you have quoted here are merely quips taken out of context. This blatant lack of detail further hurts the liklihood of your claim.

Continuing to suppose the author of the Quran had the knowledge you propose, why wouldn't he or others have made use of it? Either to advance Muslim culture or of humanity as a whole? Since those studying the Quran should have had access to such superior divinely-revealed knowledge, it's a wonder Muslims weren't flying to the moon at the time of Crusades!

With this knowledge, it follows logically that Muslims should should have been been, and remained far more scientifically advanced than Western nations. I realize for a time the East was more advanced - but that changed dramatically during the Rennaissance. The West began to far outshine the world in scientific and industrial development. Again, the liklihood of your claim just doesn't hold up.

Remember, we'll never be able to prove eachother wrong. But we can evaluate information as likely or not by employing a bit of reason.  

Your really attempting to grasp at air to make an 'argument' I mean it can't even be called an argument... lol..

You're right - to someone who believes in fantasy, it can't be called an argument. Until you let reason begin to influence your thoughts, I may as well be speaking to a wall.

[risky]

Does it disprove anything I've posted? Tell me that?

You cannot prove that the Quran has special forknowledge of advanced scientific principles any more than I can disprove it. Therefore I don't think proof is the most important element of our discussion. What I do feel is important is whether your claim is likely or not. In other words I'm not as interested in proof as I am in the likelihood that what you claim is true. Your claim is that the Quran contains forknowledge of advanced scientific acheivements.

To judge the likelihood of your claim, first I would ask what support can you demonstrate that proves the author of the Quran is on the same wave-length as you are. Would he have any concept of the things you have posted here? Since he lived so long ago I doubt you have any such support. This hurts the likelihood of your claim. It doesn't disprove it, but it does hurt the likelihood.

Supposing he did have the knowledge you say he did, then he would have had knowledge of orbits, fingerprints, oceanology, atoms, etc... So why wouldn't he have written it more explicitly, and in more detail? It's always been the pleasure of highly observant and scientifically productive men to explain every minute detail of their theories. The verses you have quoted here are merely quips taken out of context. This blatant lack of detail further hurts the liklihood of your claim.

Continuing to suppose the author of the Quran had the knowledge you propose, why wouldn't he or others have made use of it? Either to advance Muslim culture or of humanity as a whole? Since those studying the Quran should have had access to such superior divinely-revealed knowledge, it's a wonder Muslims weren't flying to the moon at the time of Crusades!

With this knowledge, it follows logically that Muslims should should have been been, and remained far more scientifically advanced than Western nations. I realize for a time the East was more advanced - but that changed dramatically during the Rennaissance. The West began to far outshine the world in scientific and industrial development. Again, the liklihood of your claim just doesn't hold up.

Remember, we'll never be able to prove eachother wrong. But we can evaluate information as likely or not by employing a bit of reason.  

Your really attempting to grasp at air to make an 'argument' I mean it can't even be called an argument... lol..

You're right - to someone who believes in fantasy, it can't be called an argument. Until you let reason begin to influence your thoughts, I may as well be speaking to a wall.

What does everyone think about whats stated?

What do you think about it? What would you say to what he's written (In your own shoes or in mine)?

*~Sharing Thoughts?

[Faithless]

Well, I've read this entire thread, including all of your arguments, Risky.  And you really want to know what I think?  You asked for it.

I think that, like any religious text, you can read the Quran to say anything you want it to say.  So basically I think that, like the Bible, it's full of metaphors, fables, flat out untruths and inconsistencies.  You can say anything you want to say about what you believe certain verses to say.  But until you are able or willing to look at those verses with anything approximating reason or critical thinking, you're just blowing smoke.

You will never convince any of us that there is any kind of scientific truth or prediction whatsoever in this or any other religious text.  If you were able to quote verses that said something like "at the beginning of the 21st century scientists and believers will argue over the moral implications of stem cell research," you'd have much more of an argument.  But quoting verses about talking ants or how many legs all the critters have (while omitting most of the critters on earth which have more than four legs) just makes you look gullible, credulous, and uneducated.

I appreciate the effort you've gone to to try to present your argument convincingly.  But frankly, like so many other people on this board and others, merely quoting these verses and attaching your own personal interpretation doesn't hold water.  If you are hoping someone will read them and all of a sudden think, "Wow, that's amazing!  How come I never saw it that way before?  There really is a God, or Allah," it ain't gonna happen.  We like proof, not mysticism.  I realize you can't prove it any more than I can disprove it.  But there is proof that ants don't talk (I'm not talking communication by scent, but talking as told in the Quran), which just makes the Quran less likely to have any grain of truth in it.  There is proof that semen comes from male genitals, not somewhere in the back by the kidneys, regardless of the spin you put on that dubious description.

Good try, though.  Better luck next time.

[Faithless]

Risky?  Oh, Risky!  Here Risky Risky Risky!  Where'd you go?

Was it something I said?  

[curiosityandthecat]

Risky?  Oh, Risky!  Here Risky Risky Risky!  Where'd you go?

Was it something I said?  

Don't get too excited. Risky is very good at using creative rhetoric to give the appearance of beating your arguments. It's rather disappointing.