The Quran & Science

[risky]

Now before you spam this with hate (If that was your intention).. lol READ it   to provide the information, from the book: "The Qur’aan and Modern Science: Compatible or Incompatible?")

*~(I did not know if this should go into the Religion Forum or the Science... So i choose Religion~)*

*~Thoughts..?

[Source: http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf] (dankje btw : )

[Tom62]

I don't see any point why the Quran would contain a verse that  â€œIt is not permitted To the Sun to catch up The Moon, nor can The Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along In (its own) orbit (According to Law).”. Nor do I see what you'd like to prove with it?

[curiosityandthecat]

Seriously, though... it's not unheard of for fears derived from and observations made by purely narrative means (stories passed down, anthropomorphized natural occurrences, etc) to actually reflect hard science. You don't need a degree in chemistry or physics to make this leap of a syllogism:

1. The sun looks like fire.
2. Fires burn out eventually.
3. The sun will burn out eventually and we will die.

Simple, and yes, it's scientifically true.

1. The sun is a giant atom-smashing machine which needs fuel.
2. Eventually, it will exhaust its fuel supply.
3. When this happens it will become a red giant and we will die.

It proves nothing other than the fact that occasionally non-scientific observations can be relatively similar to scientific truth.

/thread.  

[myleviathan]

“It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.” [Al-Qur’aan 21:33]

This verse seems to suggest that the author believed the sun is in orbit around the earth, along with the moon and all of the other celestial bodies that can be seen from earth.

[Whitney]

Risky, if you notice that I had a couple edits on your post it is because I wasn't reading closely enough and thought you hadn't listed your source; I was going to add a note asking you to do so.  

Here's the source:

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf

[risky]

Seriously, though... it's not unheard of for fears derived from and observations made by purely narrative means (stories passed down, anthropomorphized natural occurrences, etc) to actually reflect hard science. You don't need a degree in chemistry or physics to make this leap of a syllogism:

1. The sun looks like fire.
2. Fires burn out eventually.
3. The sun will burn out eventually and we will die.

Simple, and yes, it's scientifically true.

1. The sun is a giant atom-smashing machine which needs fuel.
2. Eventually, it will exhaust its fuel supply.
3. When this happens it will become a red giant and we will die.

It proves nothing other than the fact that occasionally non-scientific observations can be relatively similar to scientific truth.

/thread.  

Alright, understandable that could have been the case.

(Just for my knowledge, how many other religions believed the sun would 'die'/burn out if any)

@Tom62: I don't understand your question about the verse, could you clarify?

This verse seems to suggest that the author believed the sun is in orbit around the earth, along with the moon and all of the other celestial bodies that can be seen from earth.

“It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.” [Al-Qur’aan 21:33]

O.o Now i don't see how you can fit the sun orbiting around the earth in that verse nor all the other celestial bodies. Really lol could you explain how it would seem the author suggests it?

@laetusatheos To tell you the truth i hadn't noticed until you told me. lol..

[myleviathan]

myleviathan wrote:
 
This verse seems to suggest that the author believed the sun is in orbit around the earth, along with the moon and all of the other celestial bodies that can be seen from earth.

“It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.” [Al-Qur’aan 21:33]

O.o Now i don't see how you can fit the sun orbiting around the earth in that verse nor all the other celestial bodies. Really lol could you explain how it would seem the author suggests it?

lol - sure. It seems fairly clear from the passage.The verse says: "And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course."

The sun doesn't revolve around anything, though the verse suggests it has a 'rounded course'. The author was able to observe the sun appearing to circle the earth, and wrote erroneously that it must be in movement, 'swimming along in its rounded course' - around the earth like the other celestial bodies. The fact he links the sun with the other astrological features is the giveaway. The author's reference point is the earth, and all celestial bodies, including the sun, swim through the heavens around it.

There's no other way to explain why the author might have believed the sun has a rounded course.

[risky]

myleviathan wrote:
 
This verse seems to suggest that the author believed the sun is in orbit around the earth, along with the moon and all of the other celestial bodies that can be seen from earth.

“It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.” [Al-Qur’aan 21:33]

O.o Now i don't see how you can fit the sun orbiting around the earth in that verse nor all the other celestial bodies. Really lol could you explain how it would seem the author suggests it?

lol - sure. It seems fairly clear from the passage.The verse says: "And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course."

The sun doesn't revolve around anything, though the verse suggests it has a 'rounded course'. The author was able to observe the sun appearing to circle the earth, and wrote erroneously that it must be in movement, 'swimming along in its rounded course' - around the earth like the other celestial bodies. The fact he links the sun with the other astrological features is the giveaway. The author's reference point is the earth, and all celestial bodies, including the sun, swim through the heavens around it.

There's no other way to explain why the author might have believed the sun has a rounded course.

But the Sun does revolve around something... "The Sun does revolve around the Milky Way on an almost circular orbit with a speed of about 220km/s. The Sun completes one revolution in about 230 million years."

Source: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=96

So i guess the verse is still credible.

[myleviathan]

The verse is vague at best. It's impossible to know what the author intended by the celestial bodies "swimming along their rounded courses". It's easy to take verses and apply them to known scientific facts. Theists do the same thing with prophecy to historical events. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. If the author was truly inspired to write about the nature of the universe, for the great glory of Allah, it would be much more impressive if he went into just a little more detail.

[Whitney]

As they say, hindsight is 20/20. If the author was truly inspired to write about the nature of the universe, for the great glory of Allah, it would be much more impressive if he went into just a little more detail.

That's my opinion on these things too.  If, for instance, I felt that a deity was telling me that in the future a virus would evolve which creates zombism in  humans and that I knew the cure.

I would not write:  "When the rooster crows on the eve of the darkest hour will the dead come to see day.  Woe is he that does not kill the rooster with pungent grasses."

I would just say, "God told me that a virus will eventually evolve which mimics what we currently refer to in sci fi as zombism.  I beg that we all take this seriously and be prepared to develop an anti-virus using the cure god has revealed to me, skunk weed."

The more vague you are when writing the more likely it is to be able to be interpreted to fit future knowledge and events.  It's in this same way that poetry often means different things to different people.

[Tom62]

@Tom62: I don't understand your question about the verse, could you clarify?

What I mean is that the verse only states the obvious. There is no revelation in it, no science, no nothing. The funny thing is that in the verse, someone (I assume it is Allah) forbids the sun to do certain things because it is the law. That sounds rather funny to me, because the sun is not a living person, whom you could forbid anything.

I don't think that the Quran (or any other religious book) contains any  scientific fact that would truly astound  us. I understand that there are many religious people are desperately looking for any scientific "approval" of their holy books. To me it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. It is as well a futile, meaningless goal. because these books are not intended to be scientific study books. Even if you would find a a couple of phrases that are scientific correct, it doesn't mean that the whole book is correct.  The problem with this kind of argumentation is that you can apply the same method to any book ever written in human history. I am sure that you can find scientific correct facts in Greek and Roman mythology, just like in Harry Potter and the Brother Grimm's fairy-tales as well.

[Jolly Sapper]

The cut and paste job is nice but there is at least one thing that I'm curious about. How many verses are there in the Quran which make claims that are directly contrary to what has been proven through science?  

The Quran's verses aren't compatible with scientific thought just because statements made by both seem to be similar (if not the same).  The Quran didn't state that Allah gave Muhammad some divine insight in developing a means by which to measure, record and analyse an event in the universe so that Muhammad could come to the conclusion that, "Yes, celestial bodies tend to have orbits that can be observed and measured," or, "No, the celestial bodies of the universe revolve around the Earth because Allah gave me the insight to develop a means by which to measure and record data that proves my point."

Now, I'm no student of the Quran, only if there are verses where Allah or Muhammad states a method of testing, measuring the results of the tests, AND THEN comes to a conclusion could we say that the Quran could be compatible with science.

[risky]

Opps, lol i was not* done editing. bottom one is what i wanted posted. haha ^_^

[risky]

The more vague you are when writing the more likely it is to be able to be interpreted to fit future knowledge and events.  It's in this same way that poetry often means different things to different people.

Vague? It seemed to me to be pretty specific & it does coincide with what we know today. The only thing someone can point out is that well perhaps he got lucky. lol

What I mean is that the verse only states the obvious. There is no revelation in it, no science, no nothing. The funny thing is that in the verse, someone (I assume it is Allah) forbids the sun to do certain things because it is the law. That sounds rather funny to me, because the sun is not a living person, whom you could forbid anything.

It is not permitted to the Sun to do anything other then what I command... It sounds funny when human says it.. lol but if you know 'God' said it, it makes more sense...

I can tell you it wasn't obvious 1,400 years ago, the night and day of course was obvious, but the orbits.. not so lol unless the text that is being related to history of people guessing/theories is incorrect and they did in fact know for thousands of years.. lol Because they were incorrect hundreds of years after the verse was 'revealed'. While the verse specifically mentions what is a fact now. lol again all someone can say is he got lucky

The verse is vague at best. It's impossible to know what the author intended by the celestial bodies "swimming along their rounded courses". It's easy to take verses and apply them to known scientific facts...

"All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course." We know what was intended, the author says it plainly lol if I'm misreading the text let me know and help me out.

Now, I'm no student of the Quran, only if there are verses where Allah or Muhammad states a method of testing, measuring the results of the tests, AND THEN comes to a conclusion could we say that the Quran could be compatible with science.

That goes against the whole reason for having a 'God' If God had to tell you how he figured something out LoL It doesn't make much sense. It is compatablie with what man has measured tested/etc in todays world. So again the only thing that is possible is that the verse is just clear luck. Muhammed couldn't have possible known that it was fact on his own, but to say he merely guessed/was lucky is plausible.

How many verses are there in the Quran which make claims that are directly contrary to what has been proven through science?

I'm not aware of any, If you bring up 'miracles' that is called 'faith' ; ) & if you say they can be disproved well you weren't around at the time of the 'miracle' so you cant debunk what happened to that person at that time. But of course belief in those 'miracles' is called 'faith'.  

If you find anything else besides that, let me know ^^

*~ I'll post the next one when i get home ; )

[myleviathan]

Here's a couple of links for information about Aristarchus (310 BC) - who first proposed the earth revolves around the sun. The idea that celestial bodies revolved predated Aristarchus. However it's clear that the idea of orbits predated the Quaran.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biograp ... rchus.html
http://www.varchive.org/ce/orbit/arisam.htm
http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/gre ... archus.htm