So what?

[NearBr0ken]

I tried to see both sides of the issue...and I did.  My conclusion is a total of two words:  "So what?"  It goes something like this:

"There's overwhelming evidence for evolution."
"So what."

"Science suggests that the universe came about by natural causes not divine intervention."
"So what."

"The more educated a person is, the more likely they are to be an atheist."
"So what."

And so on.  The point is, you can say all these things and they may be true, but what do they have to do with God existing or not?  So what that there's overwhelming evidence for evolution?  How does that affect God's existence one way or the other?  I want some real arguments before I go at this again.

[Will]

Let me address these by finishing the sentences you posted:

There's overwhelming evidence for evolution, and there is no evidence whatsoever for creationism, therefore evolution is almost certainly right and creationism is almost certainly wrong. All creationists are wrong in that they are not using science at all in what they propose is science.

Science suggests that the universe came about by natural causes not divine intervention, therefore all of those who believe that god or gods created the universe are almost certainly wrong.

The more educated a person is, the more likely they are to be an atheist, which strongly suggests a causal relationship between ignorance and religion.

How does that affect God's existence one way or the other? I want some real arguments before I go at this again.

The argument is never that god doesn't exist. That's an impossible argument because you can't disprove something for which there is no evidence. The argument is that the faithful are unreasonable in their belief because they do so in spite of overwhelming evidence that they are wrong. Believing in god is unreasonable. That's the point.

[Asmodean]

Yes, what Will said.

One can not disprove gods, however, that is not the point, now is it? The burden of proof rests on those making the claim. If I say "there are aliens" and you say "I don't think so", it's up to me to prove me right, not up to you to prove me wrong.

[EvolutionCalling]

Chicken butt?

[susangail]

Chicken butt?

Nice.


I can see where you're coming from NearBr0ken. But "so what" IMO isn't a good... motto if you will, to live by.

I want some real arguments before I go at this again.

Real arguments for what? God's existence (or lack thereof)? I think you're going to be disappointed if you try to find decent arguments beyond the current ones. Do you know what you're looking for?

[Evolved]

So what?  There are solid reasons why it's good to not believe in god.

A belief in the afterlife can change the value that we place on this life.  Atheists understand well that we have but one go around in life, and we do not get a second chance.  We can't be bitches all of our lives and then get excused at the end because we profess faith in a ghost.  If we're unhappy with the way that we've done things at the end of life, we realize that we are up shit creek.

A belief in a god gives a lot of folks the 'authority' in their minds to do god's work, which has in the past included killing in the name of god.  Still goes on, ya know...do some research into wars.  Even modern wars have religious overtones.

A belief in god removes self-reliance for achievement, and it falsely shifts the praise for success to a non-existent entity.  You belittle yourself if you think that god is responsible for your accomplishments.

I could go on and on...these are but a few reasons why belief in a god can be hazardous to your health.  So what?

[Will]

Was this just another hit and run? I don't want anyone to waste energy trying to teach shadows.

[Evolved]

Was this just another hit and run? I don't want anyone to waste energy trying to teach shadows.

He's been around before.  Could be a hit and run, though.  Good to give it at least one shot.

[NearBr0ken]

A belief in the afterlife can change the value that we place on this life. Atheists understand well that we have but one go around in life, and we do not get a second chance. We can't be bitches all of our lives and then get excused at the end because we profess faith in a ghost. If we're unhappy with the way that we've done things at the end of life, we realize that we are up shit creek.

Which is why I reject reincarnation.  Belief in an afterlife increases the value of this life because if a person is "eternity-minded" they realize the futility of grudges and the temporality of situations.

A belief in a god gives a lot of folks the 'authority' in their minds to do god's work, which has in the past included killing in the name of god. Still goes on, ya know...do some research into wars. Even modern wars have religious overtones.

Have you ever heard of identity theft?  Say someone steals your checkbook and forges your signature for a lot of purchases that you never really wanted.  Same idea.  Who's to say that killing children (in McVay's case) was the will of God.  He metaphorically stole God's identity and did some things in God's name that God probably didn't want to happen.  He could've been psycho.  You can't take isolated incidents and stereotype from them.

A belief in god removes self-reliance for achievement, and it falsely shifts the praise for success to a non-existent entity. You belittle yourself if you think that god is responsible for your accomplishments.

So...pride and egoism are good things?  Hardly so.  The best way to make yourself happy is not to revel in your own achievements, but to make others happy first.  Humbleness is not having a low opinion of yourself, it is having no opinion of yourself at all.

[Will]

Which is why I reject reincarnation.  Belief in an afterlife increases the value of this life because if a person is "eternity-minded" they realize the futility of grudges and the temporality of situations.

What about leaving interpersonal relationship work for the afterlife? Say I believe in heaven. Why would I need to visit my grandmother on her deathbed when I'll see her as soon as I die? No reason, really.

Have you ever heard of identity theft?  Say someone steals your checkbook and forges your signature for a lot of purchases that you never really wanted.  Same idea.  Who's to say that killing children (in McVay's case) was the will of God.  He metaphorically stole God's identity and did some things in God's name that God probably didn't want to happen.  He could've been psycho.  You can't take isolated incidents and stereotype from them.

Atheists don't blame god for anything (from our perspective it would be like blaming santa for not getting the right present). We blame those who claim to follow god. And yes, all of the blame for the genocide, murder, rape, molestation, and subjugation all carried out in god's name would be the responsibility of the believers.

So...pride and egoism are good things?  Hardly so.  The best way to make yourself happy is not to revel in your own achievements, but to make others happy first.  Humbleness is not having a low opinion of yourself, it is having no opinion of yourself at all.

This makes no sense. The best way to make one's self happy is entirely subjective. It makes me very happy to exercise, but some other people absolutely hate it. It likely makes you happy to pray, but I would find prayer to be not only a waste of time but a practice in self deception.

Making others happy can sometimes make one happy, but what about making other happy at your expense? That's called codependency and is very unhealthy.

Humbleness is to not proud or arrogant. It's no more than that.

[Whitney]

"There's overwhelming evidence for evolution."
"So what."

So...that means that makes biblical creationism much less likely.  But no, it doesn't disprove gods, just some concepts of god.

"Science suggests that the universe came about by natural causes not divine intervention."
"So what."

So...that basically is a statement that we are able to explain existance without having to involve a deity.  The more we know about the universe the less god can be used as a gap filler.  All people who say that are trying to do is make it obvious that god doesn't explain anything nor have we found reason to assume supernatural involvement.

"The more educated a person is, the more likely they are to be an atheist."
"So what."

The studies, if I remember correctly, say that educated people are less likely to be religious.  Not that they are necessarily more likely to be atheist.  So?  Well, it demonstrates a negative correlation between religiousity and intelligence.   This may not prove a god wrong, but it does show that those who have a greater capacity for rational thought are much less likely to accept religion as true.

I don't consider any of the 'so what" statments you mentioned to be arguments against a deity.  They are, however, very common talking points to use when trying to get a fundamentalist to open their mind a little more.

[Whitney]

Have you ever heard of identity theft?  Say someone steals your checkbook and forges your signature for a lot of purchases that you never really wanted.  Same idea.  Who's to say that killing children (in McVay's case) was the will of God.  He metaphorically stole God's identity and did some things in God's name that God probably didn't want to happen.  He could've been psycho.  You can't take isolated incidents and stereotype from them.

That's just the problem though.  Religion creates an environment where otherwise good people will do bad things simply because they think it is god's will.  McVey may not be a good example of an otherwise good person.  However, think of that woman who drowned her kids because she thought god had told her to essentially kill them to save them from the world's sinful nature.  She did a very bad act all because she thought she was doing God's work.  Really, if you think about it...if you are a theist who believes the world is a terrible place and that the only way to heaven is to avoid sin; killing your kids while they are still pure may not sound like a terrible idea.  

Another example of religion justifying war is those who think God gave them special rights to some random plot of land *cough, Israel.*  A whole bunch of people fighting over some dirt simply because of religious views.  I don't think I even have to explain how muslim jihadists wouldn't exist if it weren't for their religious beliefs.

So...pride and egoism are good things?  Hardly so.  The best way to make yourself happy is not to revel in your own achievements, but to make others happy first.  Humbleness is not having a low opinion of yourself, it is having no opinion of yourself at all.

Actually, it is very possible to have a healthy amount of pride while being appropriately humble.  Secular people have pride in themselves.  I don't think that humbleness or pride are bad things.  Anyway, it's not like you can't take pride in yourself while also caring about the happiness of others.  

The problem with people thinking god helps them do everything is that they end up with a god-crutch.  You start to think that you cannot do anything without god and many take that to mean they should just pray instead of working hard.   I've seen this happen to a lot of people, they are in a crappy situation but instead of pulling themselves together to do something about it they just say "I know things will get better because it's part of god's plan" and so on.  That may be a good outlet for those who have no other hope, say, those starving and dying of aids in Africa.  But it's not a good outlook for those who do have the ability and means to make their situations better.  If there is an involved god, i doubt it likes lazy people anyway.

[Atheist Mother]

I was going to respond, infact I was researching other threads/posts that near broken posted.  Now I am totally confused.  So can someone clue me in on this guy?  Was he an atheist and is now christian?  or is he a troll?  help.  PM me please.

[Evolved]

Thanks, Will and Laetus.  Excellent points.  I have a few things to add:

Belief in an afterlife increases the value of this life because if a person is "eternity-minded" they realize the futility of grudges and the temporality of situations.

I disagree.  Grudges are futile, indeed.  Situations are temporary, indeed.  You do not need to believe in an afterlife to know and appreciate these matters.  Belief in an afterlife decreases the value of life; it gives everyone a second chance.  If I gave you $50,000 and told you that this is all you have to live on for the rest of your (Earthly) life, you'd spend it far more wisely than if you knew that your uncle was going to leave you a $1 million dollar inheritance down the road.

Have you ever heard of identity theft?  Say someone steals your checkbook and forges your signature for a lot of purchases that you never really wanted.  Same idea.  Who's to say that killing children (in McVay's case) was the will of God.  He metaphorically stole God's identity and did some things in God's name that God probably didn't want to happen.  He could've been psycho.  You can't take isolated incidents and stereotype from them.

What about the war in Yugoslavia?  Imagine two majorities:  orthodox and catholic.  Both christian, living together side by side as neighbors and friends.  Then a war breaks out.  Catholic turn against orthodox, and orthodox turn against catholic.  I won't even mention the muslims.  Former friends and acquaintances betray eachother.  I am not talking about McVay, one loner looney tooney.  I am talking about ethnic majorities and nations.  Are they stealing god's identity, too?  You have to draw the line somewhere.

So...pride and egoism are good things?  Hardly so.  

Baloney.  You have been brainwashed into thinking that there is something wrong with being proud.  Pride is a very healthy emotion.

The best way to make yourself happy is not to revel in your own achievements, but to make others happy first.  Humbleness is not having a low opinion of yourself, it is having no opinion of yourself at all.

Also baloney.  It is unhealthy to try to make others happy without tending to your own needs.  It is absolutely critical to take care of yourself and, dare I say it, have pride in yourself in order to effectively take care of others.

You can not deny that you have an opinion of yourself.  Self awareness requires it.  Your opinion that you are humble is a handy example.

[Whitney]

I was going to respond, infact I was researching other threads/posts that near broken posted.  Now I am totally confused.  So can someone clue me in on this guy?  Was he an atheist and is now christian?  or is he a troll?  help.  PM me please.

I was trying to figure out the same thing.  I could have sworn his worldview field said either agnostic or atheist just a few days ago.  I don't know if that means he was toying with the thought of non-belief then changed his mind, converted, or we have bad memories and he never said anything about being non-religious.  I don't think he is a troll.

NearBr0ken...can you fill us in?  Thanks.