Justified killing or murder?

[Firebird]

In real world, I suspect that very intellectual élite would be smart enough to know when to call for professional aid and keep a safe distance though.

For my part, if I was being mugged at gunpoint, the last thing I would want would be some wannabe John McClane tackling the mugger, potentially making his trigger finger twitch. The same applies to most, if not nearly all, other examples of amateur rescue from crime as well.

I would welcome interference by a passer by if someone was actively trying to kill or potentially fatally injure me and my capacity to hold my own was diminished (Either due to my own issues or the opponent being better armed and trained/having weight superiority/whatever)

I realize you're trying to make a distinction between a life-threatening situation and one where you're merely being robbed, but if someone is pointing a gun at your head, or forcibly pushing you down and violating you, at what point does it cross the line to life-threatening situation? In this situation, the rapist was potentially trying to kill the girl too, and she didn't have the capacity to defend herself because she was a child. Doesn't that fit into your second quote?

I'm not supportive of vigilante justice either. The "Stand Your Ground" laws in the southern US which allow someone to shoot first and ask questions later are a horrible idea that should be repealed. But this is not the same thing.

[Stevil]

Would you risk further endangering your child by improvised intervention then?

If I didn't announce my presence, by initiating dialogue first, but instead took him by surprise, I would have a better chance to subdue him.

...Thus turning what you are trying to do into a premeditated assault, yes?

Hmmm, I am struggling to understand your thinking. Maybe a walk through of court proceedings
[prosecutor] Mr Father, what did you do upon discovering your 10 year old being raped by the acused
[Mr Father] I asked the rapist to stop it
[prosecutor] Did he stop?
[Mr Father]Unfortunately not
[prosecutor] So then what did you do?
[Mr Father] I called the police
[prosecutor]What happened during the call
[Mr Father]Initially it was IVR, I pressed 1 for police
The operator answered and asked if I was in immediate danger,
I said no,
They asked me what the problem was
I said that my daughter was being raped.
They asked if it was still happening
I said yes
They asked for my address
I told them and they said it would take about 20 minutes for the police to get there.
[prosecutor]After the phone call what did you do?
[Mr Father] I decided to block the exit so at least the rapist would still be around when the police arrived.
[prosecutor]Was he still raping your daughter?
[Mr Father] yes
[prosecutor] How was your daughter fearing?
[Mr Father]Not too well, she was screaming and crying, she was yelling out to me, Dad, help me?
I told her that the police would be there soon
[prosecutor]So what did you do next?
[Mr Father]There wasn't much else I could do except continue to block the exit and wait for the cops to arrive.
[prosecutor]Did you think to try and stop the rapist yourself
[Mr Father]The thought crossed my mind, I figured I didn't want to make matters worse, better to be safe than sorry, you know!

[Asmodean]

Not bad at all. At least you would not be put in jail for excessive use of force.

As for "the thought crossed my mind" line, well, if it did, you could share it with the emergency response operator and see if they recommended you getting violent or hanging back.

[Stevil]

Not bad at all. At least you would not be put in jail for excessive use of force.

As for "the thought crossed my mind" line, well, if it did, you could share it with the emergency response operator and see if they recommended you getting violent or hanging back.

If I was on the jury I would want to find the father guilty of accessory to the crime.

What father in his right mind would need permission from a telephone operator with regards to intervening to prevent or stop the rape of his own daughter?

Come on Asmo, surely you would take physical action to help your daughter, surely.

[Asmodean]

I would. If her life/health was in immediate danger, my attempts to make my presense known and come in contact with the perp failed or were ignored and if I did not think I'd make the situation worse by acting that way.

If, on the other hand, the police were only a few minutes away and there already was a penis in her, my attempt to stop the act would probably just make a bad situation worse. After all, if the perp goes on as if nothing happened upon discovery, he's either desperate, well-armed, high, crazy or otherwise confident in his abilities to shrug off an attack by me, making any physical confrontation ill-advised in my book.

Should I lose the confrontation, what does it accomplish? Nothing except my death or serious injury, quite possibly accompanied by the death of third party victim. I can not count on winning for the abovementioned reasons and thus, the risks are pretty much twice as high as the benefits.

[Sweetdeath]

I would. If her life/health was in immediate danger, my attempts to make my presense known and come in contact with the perp failed or were ignored and if I did not think I'd make the situation worse by acting that way.

If, on the other hand, the police were only a few minutes away and there already was a penis in her, my attempt to stop the act would probably just make a bad situation worse. After all, if the perp goes on as if nothing happened upon discovery, he's either desperate, well-armed, high, crazy or otherwise confident in his abilities to shrug off an attack by me, making any physical confrontation ill-advised in my book.

Should I lose the confrontation, what does it accomplish? Nothing except my death or serious injury, quite possibly accompanied by the death of third party victim. I can not count on winning for the abovementioned reasons and thus, the risks are pretty much twice as high as the benefits.

I find it hard to believe anyone, even you, would do nothing to stop a rape in progress....

[Asmodean]

I find it hard to believe anyone, even you, would do nothing to stop a rape in progress....

I would not do nothing - I would attempt to communicate with the perpetrator and get him/her to stop. I'd also inform the law enforcement and aid the victim to the best of my ability. However, the best of my ability does not automatically mean a violent physical response with further danger to self and others.

[En_Route]

I would. If her life/health was in immediate danger, my attempts to make my presense known and come in contact with the perp failed or were ignored and if I did not think I'd make the situation worse by acting that way.

If, on the other hand, the police were only a few minutes away and there already was a penis in her, my attempt to stop the act would probably just make a bad situation worse. After all, if the perp goes on as if nothing happened upon discovery, he's either desperate, well-armed, high, crazy or otherwise confident in his abilities to shrug off an attack by me, making any physical confrontation ill-advised in my book.

Should I lose the confrontation, what does it accomplish? Nothing except my death or serious injury, quite possibly accompanied by the death of third party victim. I can not count on winning for the abovementioned reasons and thus, the risks are pretty much twice as high as the benefits.

I find it hard to believe anyone, even you, would do nothing to stop a rape in progress....

I think the issue is whether having overpowered the rapist, the father  lost his self- control and proceeded to beat him so badly that he died. On the basis that he did not intend to kill him and the intense provocation he was suffering, this looks like manslaughter with very  significant mitigating circumstances, not meriting a jail sentence.

[Asmodean]

I think the issue is whether having overpowered the rapist, the father  lost his self- control and proceeded to beat him so badly that he died. On the basis that he did not intend to kill him and the intense provocation he was suffering, this looks like manslaughter with very  significant mitigating circumstances, not meriting a jail sentence.

If he killed the rapist after having overpowered him, I'd call it murder 2, although I do see how involuntary manslaughter could apply. If it was demonstrated conclusively that he killed a downed opponent who no longer posed any immediate danger, I'd toss him in jail for a few years unless his actions were indicative of a psychiatric disorder.

[Ali]

What does "a penis already in her" have to do with waiting for the police?  Like, oh well, she's already raped, may as well wait for the cops. 

[Asmodean]

What does "a penis already in her" have to do with waiting for the police?  Like, oh well, she's already raped, may as well wait for the cops.  

When the damage is done, I'd like to think I'd choose a path that aggravates it the least - not at all, if I could.

Admittedly not being an expert on the issue, I think being raped for two minutes and witnessing your would-be rescuer getting a knife to the throat is more traumatising than being raped for five or seven minutes.

[Ali]

What does "a penis already in her" have to do with waiting for the police?  Like, oh well, she's already raped, may as well wait for the cops.  

When the damage is done, I'd like to think I'd choose a path that aggravates it the least - not at all, if I could.

Admittedly not being an expert on the issue, I think being raped for two minutes and witnessing your would-be rescuer getting a knife to the throat is more traumatising than being raped for five or seven minutes.

The damage is not "done" at the moment of penetration.  It continues for as long as the rape continues, and then for long, long, long after that.

I would say that knowing that someone else (particularly someone you trust to take care of you like your dad) was there and didn't do a whole lot to stop the rape would be at least as damaging as the rape itself.  Rape damages your ability to trust and have relationships with people anyway, even people that you previously loved and trusted like your parents.  Actually having your dad there and having him not do much to stop it would be....unthinkable.  I don't know how you would get past that. 

[Asmodean]

The damage is not "done" at the moment of penetration.  It continues for as long as the rape continues, and then for long, long, long after that.

Poor wording on my part. Let's try again:

When the damage is already being done at the point of discovery...

I would say that knowing that someone else (particularly someone you trust to take care of you like your dad) was there and didn't do a whole lot to stop the rape would be at least as damaging as the rape itself.  Rape damages your ability to trust and have relationships with people anyway, even people that you previously loved and trusted like your parents.

That depends on a multitude of factors, age, personality and nature of the rape among them. However, I do not disagree with you on that point and it does not contradict mine.  

Actually having your dad there and having him not do much to stop it would be....unthinkable.  I don't know how you would get past that.  

Attempting to communicate with the attacker and calling the police isn't exactly "not doing much" - it is doing what one is supposed to in such a situation. The bare minimum would be running for the hills and THEN calling the police. Depending on the exact circumstances, even that may be enough and by far the wisest course of action.

[Asmodean]

I realize you're trying to make a distinction between a life-threatening situation and one where you're merely being robbed, but if someone is pointing a gun at your head, or forcibly pushing you down and violating you, at what point does it cross the line to life-threatening situation? In this situation, the rapist was potentially trying to kill the girl too, and she didn't have the capacity to defend herself because she was a child. Doesn't that fit into your second quote?

I'm not supportive of vigilante justice either. The "Stand Your Ground" laws in the southern US which allow someone to shoot first and ask questions later are a horrible idea that should be repealed. But this is not the same thing.

Sorry, I missed it.

An immediately life-threatening situation would be one where death or life-threatening injury could occur in very near future and prior to the arrival of emergency response agencies. For example someone actively choking someone else, having them at gun- or knifepoint, threatening to release dangerous toxins, using blunt weapons (Boots as well as baseball bats and the like), beating a downed opponent, etc.

If the rapist was "only" in the process of raping her (as opposed to simultaneously bashing her head against the wall or the like), I would hesitate to call that situation immediately life-threatening and/or make it such by intervention. So, highly damaging to all involved, the victim especially? Sure. Life-threatening? Not if the conditions for that classification are unmet.

[Firebird]

If the rapist was "only" in the process of raping her (as opposed to simultaneously bashing her head against the wall or the like), I would hesitate to call that situation immediately life-threatening and/or make it such by intervention. So, highly damaging to all involved, the victim especially? Sure. Life-threatening? Not if the conditions for that classification are unmet.

I have a major issue with this. You seem to think there's a well-defined line between life-threatening and not. Maybe after the fact, when charges are being filed, that can be determined, but not at that moment. The rapist is using excessive force to pin the girl down and violate her; how do you know he won't decide to suddenly smash her head against the floor so she'll stop screaming, or pull out a knife and stab her? His actions already constitute a threat to her life, not to mention a violation of her body. You have no way of knowing what the violent perpetrator will do next.

I would say that knowing that someone else (particularly someone you trust to take care of you like your dad) was there and didn't do a whole lot to stop the rape would be at least as damaging as the rape itself.  Rape damages your ability to trust and have relationships with people anyway, even people that you previously loved and trusted like your parents.

That depends on a multitude of factors, age, personality and nature of the rape among them. However, I do not disagree with you on that point and it does not contradict mine. 

Again, I think this points to a major flaw in your logic, namely some kind of cold calculation when seeing this violent act about whether it's life-threatening or not. Does that really matter? If violence is being inflicted upon a loved one like this, I don't think the distinction matters anymore. There's already being harm done, and you have no way of knowing if it could potentially get worse.