Re: Anti-semitism and the crucifixion

[pjkeeley]

A thought:

Anit-semitism is a prejudice with a pretty complex background and has had many different guises over the centuries. One consistent basis for Christian anti-semitism however seems to be the fact that "the Jews killed Our Lord", or something or other. Disregarding the scriptual arguments for or against this interpretation of the Jesus narrative, isn't it a little absurd to be mad about that, given what Christians are supposed to believe about the crucifixion? Jesus died for our sins, which had to happen in order for people to get to heaven, amiright? So what's to be mad about? Plus, it happened a long friggin' time ago, even for medieval Christians. Jesus being human would have had to have died at some point, surely, even if he wasn't inevitably going to sacrifice himself to redeem humanity. Get over it! Then there's the issue of causation: even if the Jews influenced the decision, it was still the Romans who crucified Christ. Shouldn't Christians be mad at Italians then?

Another contradiction to add to the religion pile.

[Will]

Jesus was a Jew. I would hope the argument would stop there.

[myleviathan]

Currently there's a huge trend in pop Christianity toward appreciating its Jewish roots - especially in the more Charismatic denominations. There has been a revived interest in language, cultural events, even financially supporting persecuted Jews in other countries (such as certain former Soviet states). The 'Jews Killed our Lord' mentality is pretty much long gone. At least it is in the main stream.

[susangail]

A thought:

Anit-semitism is a prejudice with a pretty complex background and has had many different guises over the centuries. One consistent basis for Christian anti-semitism however seems to be the fact that "the Jews killed Our Lord", or something or other. Disregarding the scriptual arguments for or against this interpretation of the Jesus narrative, isn't it a little absurd to be mad about that, given what Christians are supposed to believe about the crucifixion? Jesus died for our sins, which had to happen in order for people to get to heaven, amiright? So what's to be mad about? Plus, it happened a long friggin' time ago, even for medieval Christians. Jesus being human would have had to have died at some point, surely, even if he wasn't inevitably going to sacrifice himself to redeem humanity. Get over it! Then there's the issue of causation: even if the Jews influenced the decision, it was still the Romans who crucified Christ. Shouldn't Christians be mad at Italians then?

Another contradiction to add to the religion pile.

I haven't heard it in a while (I remember hearing people talk about it in church when I was a kid). But it does seem dumb. Jesus had to die and rise from the dead in order for there to be a Christian religion. It's really just another thing to talk about. In one of my small groups, we spent a good chunk of the hour discussing how everyone assumes the fruit in Genesis 3 is an apple, when it might very well be an orange.

Jesus was a Jew. I would hope the argument would stop there.

I concur.

[myleviathan]

In one of my small groups, we spent a good chunk of the hour discussing how everyone assumes the fruit in Genesis 3 is an apple, when it might very well be an orange.

That discussion would make me want to rip out my tounge with my bare hands, just to see how much of my insides I could pull out along with it.

[susangail]

In one of my small groups, we spent a good chunk of the hour discussing how everyone assumes the fruit in Genesis 3 is an apple, when it might very well be an orange.

That discussion would make me want to rip out my tounge with my bare hands, just to see how much of my insides I could pull out along with it.

Good one! I think I'm gonna try that next time my dad or my sister get all Godly on me...

[pjkeeley]

Currently there's a huge trend in pop Christianity toward appreciating its Jewish roots - especially in the more Charismatic denominations. There has been a revived interest in language, cultural events, even financially supporting persecuted Jews in other countries (such as certain former Soviet states). The 'Jews Killed our Lord' mentality is pretty much long gone. At least it is in the main stream.

Modern attitudes to Judaism have indeed changed, it hasn't dissappeared from the mainstream completely. Consider Mel Gibson's portrayal of the Jews in the Passion of the Christ, and the controversy surrounding it when that movie came out. Then consider his antisemitic comments following that...

[myleviathan]

Currently there's a huge trend in pop Christianity toward appreciating its Jewish roots - especially in the more Charismatic denominations. There has been a revived interest in language, cultural events, even financially supporting persecuted Jews in other countries (such as certain former Soviet states). The 'Jews Killed our Lord' mentality is pretty much long gone. At least it is in the main stream.

Modern attitudes to Judaism have indeed changed, it hasn't dissappeared from the mainstream completely. Consider Mel Gibson's portrayal of the Jews in the Passion of the Christ, and the controversy surrounding it when that movie came out. Then consider his antisemitic comments following that...

Mel F-ing Gibson. What an assface. I'm not sure if he counts as reflecting mainstream beliefs of Christianity, not that I'm defending them. I hope those comments were a drunken attempt at a publicity stunt. I agree with you that anti-semitism hasn't disappeared completely, but from what I've witnessed it seems like it's getting better?? Maybe??

[susangail]

Currently there's a huge trend in pop Christianity toward appreciating its Jewish roots - especially in the more Charismatic denominations. There has been a revived interest in language, cultural events, even financially supporting persecuted Jews in other countries (such as certain former Soviet states). The 'Jews Killed our Lord' mentality is pretty much long gone. At least it is in the main stream.

Modern attitudes to Judaism have indeed changed, it hasn't dissappeared from the mainstream completely. Consider Mel Gibson's portrayal of the Jews in the Passion of the Christ, and the controversy surrounding it when that movie came out. Then consider his antisemitic comments following that...

Whoa. I saw the Passion but I guess it was awhile ago... How were the Jews portrayed? And what did Gibson say after??

[myleviathan]

Currently there's a huge trend in pop Christianity toward appreciating its Jewish roots - especially in the more Charismatic denominations. There has been a revived interest in language, cultural events, even financially supporting persecuted Jews in other countries (such as certain former Soviet states). The 'Jews Killed our Lord' mentality is pretty much long gone. At least it is in the main stream.

Modern attitudes to Judaism have indeed changed, it hasn't dissappeared from the mainstream completely. Consider Mel Gibson's portrayal of the Jews in the Passion of the Christ, and the controversy surrounding it when that movie came out. Then consider his antisemitic comments following that...

Whoa. I saw the Passion but I guess it was awhile ago... How were the Jews portrayed? And what did Gibson say after??

Here's a link to the Wikipedia page about Mel's post-Passion of the Christ DUI. Enjoy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson_DUI_incident

[susangail]

Here's a link to the Wikipedia page about Mel's post-Passion of the Christ DUI. Enjoy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson_DUI_incident

Much appreciated!

[pjkeeley]

Whoa. I saw the Passion but I guess it was awhile ago... How were the Jews portrayed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_of_the_christ -- scroll down until you get to critical perceptions, has a section on anti-Semitism allegations. I haven't seen the movie but if the description of Jewish characters there is anything to go by it sounds as if he used every racial stereotype of Jews in the book, not to mention portraying Pontius Pilate as a good guy in comparison.

I agree with you that anti-semitism hasn't disappeared completely, but from what I've witnessed it seems like it's getting better?? Maybe??

Nah I totally agree, to be honest I was just grasping at straws trying to save my thread, after I realised it wasn't exactly a topical issue and therefore probably wasn't going to spur much discussion. Poking holes in religious arguments is one thing, poking holes in outdated and abandoned arguments is just too easy... but when I thought of it I couldn't help myself.  

[myleviathan]

I haven't seen the movie but if the description of Jewish characters there is anything to go by it sounds as if he used every racial stereotype of Jews in the book, not to mention portraying Pontius Pilate as a good guy in comparison.

You bring up an interesting point. In my opinion the Passion pretty accurately displayed the account of the death of Jesus in the Gospels. It's no secret that the Gospels and their representations (like the Passion) have cause wide-spread anti-Semitism. The question is: was it intentional?

The whole character of Pontius Pilate is one of great interest here because it shows a despised Roman official showing more compassion on Jesus than his own people did. That's not just the attitude of the Passion, that's the attitude of the Gospels. That sentiment was not placed there by accident. The authors intended to show the cruelty of the Jewish religious leaders by comparing them, Jesus' own people group, to to a cold occupier who normally wouldn't think twice about crucifying a possible threat to Roman rule. Although this isn't outright Jewbashing, it has caused a widespread distrust, loathing and scorn of Jews. I think it helps set up the framework for Jewbashing.

Christians have really attempted to shed themselves from their stereotypes as anti-Semites, especially since the Holocaust. But I think you're onto something. The coals of racism are still smoldering deep in the hearts of main-stream Christians.

[Vichy]

Just a note, most of what's called 'anti-semitism' in the Fascist States of America is actually anti-zionism, a complete mischaracterization which mainly rests of the fact that Israel is the single largest lobbying group in the American government (and thus American media).  Not that a lot of people haven't harassed jews entirely unjustly, and for all sorts of retarded reasons including fairy tales about zombie kings, but it's only fair to remember that the prime thing most people in the Judaic tradition (religious and non-religious) have against muslims and Christians is that they aren't the ones doing the harassing.  People who believe in these crazy fairy tales or who bend to it through family, social and economic pressure always complain about persecution until they're the ones holding the whip.  Judaism and Zionism are no more tolerant or rational than Islam or Arab Natioanlism.

[Will]

You can hate jews without including Israeli politics.