I am a Christian with some Questions.

[kels]

Hi, i am a born and raised christian and I am very interrested in learning a little about what and why you believe in what you believe or maybe what you dont believe in. im by no means not here to condemn or be converted, just to learn and understand.
I would greatly appreciate a response.
thank you.

[Will]

I believe in factual and verifiable evidence. I believe in seeking answers to all your questions, and accepting the answers whether you like them or not. I believe in writing your own philosophy, based on your own subjective experience. I believe in a healthy combination of knowledge and wisdom.

Why do I believe in these? They are my window into the universe. They allow me to access and process information which guarantees a better understanding of the universe and myself. It gives me the information necessary to decide where I'd like to fit in the universe. More than that, it also gives me great joy to learn.

[myleviathan]

Hi, Kels. Welcome.

I believe in the human family, that we might be able to look past our very subtle differences and work together to cause the precious life that exists on this planet, to flourish.

[kels]

Thank you for your replies and the welcome
in response to your comment that you believe in making your own philosophy based on subjective experience, do you think that it is impossible to
, from experience , require a belief in a god or in my case The God. And do you think it is really worth all the study and learning for the "right placement of yourself in the universe or this world" which only lasts about 90 years, so basically you dont believe in an after life ? i understand the desire to enjoy and work to perfect the world but is that really the goal of man, what happens next ? and also what do you think about the Bible ?

[myleviathan]

do you think that it is impossible to, from experience, require a belief in a god or in my case The God.

I think it's impossible, because I don't think any man has ever experienced God in reality.

And do you think it is really worth all the study and learning for the "right placement of yourself in the universe or this world" which only lasts about 90 years

I can't speak for Willravel, but I believe study and learning is always worth it.

so basically you dont believe in an after life

I don't.

i understand the desire to enjoy and work to perfect the world but is that really the goal of man

I wish that were the sole goal of man. The world would be a better place.

what happens next ?

The same that has happened before. The universe spins on.

and also what do you think about the Bible ?

The Bible is a great work of history. Parts of it are reliable and some are not.

[Will]

in response to your comment that you believe in making your own philosophy based on subjective experience, do you think that it is impossible to, from experience, require a belief in a god or in my case The God.

Needs are very basic for humans. I don't know if you're familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but it appears as follows:

It's important to separate wants from needs. No one really requires belief in a higher being, but many people want it. And there's noting inherently wrong with that, I suppose.

And do you think it is really worth all the study and learning for the "right placement of yourself in the universe or this world" which only lasts about 90 years, so basically you dont believe in an after life ?

I absolutely believe it's worth it because it enriches those 90ish years in ways that I can't even begin to describe. I'm only 24 now, and I already have found great joy in learning about the reality I live in. I should make it clear, though, that this is MY joy. Your joy is something you have to explore and attain. It could be anything from music to maths to sports to family.

i understand the desire to enjoy and work to perfect the world but is that really the goal of man, what happens next?

What happens next is up to my posterity. I do what I can with the time that circumstance has allotted me. It's possible that something I do will echo on long after I've died. I hope it's something good. But that won't matter to me when I'm dead because, well, nothing will matter to me after I die because I will no longer have the ability to care.

and also what do you think about the Bible ?

The Bible is a very fascinating read. I have the NKJ and Hebrew versions on my shelf right behind me, sandwiched between the Torah and the Qu'ran.

[Whitney]

Hi Kels, welcome to the forum.

You have a lot of questions...but since my dog keeps running across the keyboard (she's small), my response will be short for now.  I believe in the pursuit of happiness through developing friendships with others and gaining knowledge about the world around me.  I don't believe in an afterlife simply because I have found no reason to expect one to exist...I don't believe in a deity for mostly the same reason.  I think the Bible is simply a collection of writings which shouldn't have ever been regarded at divine...much like how many other dead religious texts shouldn't have ever been considered divine, yet they were at one point or another.

[Whitney]

From this thread:
 

hi im new in this board so laetusatheos (sorry if i spelled your sn wrong)
 

A long time ago (back when I was still a Christian)

you said you used to be a Christian, what made you an atheist ?

As I grew older I was more free to research religion on my own...I actually started to increase my research in order to make my understanding of Christianity stronger and by also understanding why others do not believe (so I could help them).  The more I learned the more I realized that there is nothing special that makes Christianity stand out amongst other contemporary religions.  I also found out that many things I thought were historical facts, such as the very existence of Jesus, are actually highly debatable.  I didn't go straight from leaving Christianity into being an atheist...it was a transition from Christianity to what I'll just call Judaism (for simplicity, it was more something of my own making) to deism to a brief entertainment of pantheism to agnosticism to atheism...with a bit of back and forth along the way.  It was ultimately studying philosophy which allowed me to be more clear about what I believe and why I believe it.

[jcm]

Thank you for your replies and the welcome
in response to your comment that you believe in making your own philosophy based on subjective experience, do you think that it is impossible to
, from experience , require a belief in a god or in my case The God.

Funny you should say that you believe in the god as if you have a deep insight into the supernatural world. When you say “the god”, what evidence do you have to support the claim that you worship “the god”? Wouldn’t it be more correct to say you worship a god since all gods are invented my man? How does your god stand apart from the rest as being the true god, when others make the same claim about their god?

And do you think it is really worth all the study and learning for the "right placement of yourself in the universe or this world" which only lasts about 90 years, so basically you dont believe in an after life ? i understand the desire to enjoy and work to perfect the world but is that really the goal of man, what happens next ? and also what do you think about the Bible ?
 

Saying what is next is kind of like saying what came before? If I was not conscious before I was born, then I will not be conscious after I am dead. The term afterlife is makes no sense to me, because if you live in the afterlife after you die, then you never really died did you. Science however has demonstrated very clearly that our brain is the mechanism that allows us to experience the universe. Without the use of our brain we would not exist on a conscious level. The construction of me, does not extend beyond my brain. When my body dies, the me in my body is switched off.

It is sometimes difficult to think of the mind as something physical, when you can’t see it or touch it. However the mind is created through a physical process and there is nothing supernatural about it. Even saying that “you” is misleading, because it creates the notion that “you” exist without the aid of your body. You are you and you are different from me, because of your genes and your experiences in your environment, not due to the supernatural.

[Will]

jcm *hearts* the all gods created equal argument.

[Evolved]

Hi Kels.  Welcome to the forum!  Thank you for asking questions rather than jumping to conclusions about atheists.

And do you think it is really worth all the study and learning for the "right placement of yourself in the universe or this world"

It is this very studying that lead me to the firm belief that there is no god.  I was raised Catholic, and even though I questioned the existence of a god and an afterlife at an early age, my atheism didn't come to full fruition until I started exploring the sciences.  What is interesting to me is that I came to these conclusions on my own - I had no family members or peers that were atheist; in fact, most around me were quite religious.

I do not need more than a lifespan to feel like my life has meaning and purpose.  It seems a shame to me that many religious folks seem to spend their lives in preparation for the next.  There is no 'next', and to spend your life worshiping a nonexistent entity seems far more of a waste than spending it learning about the things that really do drive our universe.

i understand the desire to enjoy and work to perfect the world but is that really the goal of man, what happens next ?

Unfortunately this is not the goal of man, but it is within our grasp.  If you study evolution carefully, you will find that the goal of all species is to survive long enough to pass on as much genetic material as possible.  It may sound cold, but that it what has driven the evolution of species, and that is why you and I are here.  However, we are fortunate enough to be part of the only species on Earth that has a great chance of overcoming our basic drives enough for higher purpose.  We have the ability to see far enough into the future to know that our behaviors now can impact our entire species down the road.

I'm not sure where you are in your life, but being a man of science myself, I encourage you to engage in science in some way if you haven't already.  I do not mean to be condescending.  Google "bonobo" and learn about their fascinating behavior and culture.  Try "chimpanzee tool use" and see some amazing stuff.  Find someone who owns a telescope or buy one yourself and point it towards the sky.  Get a basic book on astronomy to go along with it.  See that there are galaxies out there right in our own backyard that are many times older than anything in the Bible.

Keep asking more questions.  Always ask questions.  That's what we do.

[SteveS]

Hello kels, welcome on board.

I am very interrested in learning a little about what and why you believe in what you believe or maybe what you dont believe in

Haha, well, I believe all sorts of things, and I don't believe all other sorts of things!  

I try to be rational, and believe things that stand to reason and are supported by evidence.  When I don't have first-hand knowledge of the evidence, I try to go with what the experts think, but I do judge that a person is only an expert if they can provide evidence/rational argument when requested to.  In other words, they're not experts because they say they're experts, but rather because they can demonstrate that they're experts.

Put all that together and I tend to have a very scientific outlook on the world.

Regarding religions, I don't find any terribly good reasons to believe them (any of them).  I don't find any good evidence or rational argumentation that there is a supernatural existence, that there are any gods, or that there is any afterlife.  Plus, I find the whole situation truly puzzling (and I mean this).  When we study ancient Greek mythology its very easy for all of us to feel that it is very likely not true.  But, to the ancient people, these religious convictions were just as strong as modern people's are now.  In fact, most religious believers don't find it very hard to discard/discredit all the other religions of the world.  Yet, they accept their own religion as true, and feel very strongly about it.  Why?  In other words, think about why all the other religions are false, and then ask what is the particular difference about your own religion that makes it seem true to you?  This can't be a very new thought, and people have had questions like this ever since different cultures, which had been geographically isolated and come up with independent religions (go figure), started coming into contact with one another.  If god reveals himself to people, then why hadn't the people in the new parts of the world heard of him?  It seems that ideas about god (or gods) were spread not by any gods to people, but rather by people to people.  Religions seem man-made.  They seem invented by people.  If we survive long enough, then likely in the future there'll be a college course on "Christian mythology".

So - I find it puzzling that given this situation religious belief perpetuates.  I just plain don't get it.  There is no decent evidence, the arguments are very poor, and everybody is convinced that their own particular faith, which conflicts with everyone else's faith, is true.  I'm part of a ridiculously small minority, and I can't fathom for the life of me how religion works for the other ~97% of the people.

Other than that I'm relatively typical of my demographic.  I'm not that different in most ways from my neighbors - I just don't pray before I eat and I don't go to church on Sunday mornings.

[Asmodean]

Why do I not believe in god(s)?

It's quite simple: I have yet to see any conclusive evidence to prove the existence of god(s) and I see no need to define myself through some magical "higher power" nor do I see the need to seek "salvation" because I don't quite understand what exactly I have to be saved from.
I consider myself a moral person, and my morals come from basic social contract, so why do I need an old book (in case of Abrahamic religions) to tell me how to live my life?

Why do I not believe in an afterlife?

Because there is no conclusive evidence to support afterlife. In case of Heaven and Hell, the fact that nothing in this world is that "black and white" ruins that belief's credibility utterly. On one end you have a place of supreme happiness, on the other a place of ultimate punishment. I'm sorry, but with no shades of gray, I'm not buying it. There is also the fact that in this "afterlife" of Abrahamic and pagan religions (with possible exceptions) you are aware of who you were when you lived after your death. As far as I know, conciousness is a mass of electric impulses and chemical reactions between our ears. When the impulses and reactions cease, so does the conciousness.
I think this sums up some points about afterlife.

Why do I not believe in Intelligent Design?

ID requires belief in a deity. Without such belief, it would be one hundred kinds of hypocricy to accept that everythign was created by a higher power. Evolution, on the other hand, is a scientific fact explained by scientific theory. If you are un-sure of the difference between scientific theory and lamen term theory, I suggest you look it up. As for how it all began, the most common theist argument against evolution that I have encountered is that "nothing living comes from something non-living." Well, the fact that up until this day scientists were un-able to produce a living organism from non-livign compounds does not mean that it can't be done. All in all, I think it a likely scenario.

Did I forget something..?

[thehunter325]

Greetings Kels. I am also a Christian with some of the same questions as you. I also once believed in evolution, as well as the gap theory, but now am a young Earth Creationist. I went to college for a long time and my degree (finally) is in Wildlife Science. I would like to say that this site offers a more civilized thread than the usual ranting and raving. It is also well designed and very user-friendly. In any case, I would just like to respond to a couple things with no judgment, just my personal ideas:

From Asmodean

ID requires belief in a deity. Without such belief, it would be one hundred kinds of hypocricy to accept that everythign was created by a higher power. Evolution, on the other hand, is a scientific fact explained by scientific theory. If you are un-sure of the difference between scientific theory and lamen term theory, I suggest you look it up.

In the case of scientific theory, I believe that all forms of science should follow the scientific method in order to actually be considered a 'science'. We developed the scientific method specifically to practice science. These would be things we can observe, test, experiment, document, re-test, etc. and anyone who uses our documentation should be able to complete the same experiment and gain the same results.  I don't believe it is possible to consider Evolution in this category, because the beginnings of everything according to Evolutionary thought cannot be explained through the scientific method. Of course, neither can Creation. No one observed or can test or re-test theories such as the Creation, the Big Bang, stellar evolution, elemental evolution, abiogenesis, or macroevolution.  Microevolution is readily available, observable and testable, and is supported by both Creation and Evolution. I believe microevolution (speciation) is a good scientific topic for either a Creationist or Evolutionist to study.

I don't believe either idea in itself can be considered a science.  However, I believe that the way we practice science will be determined on how we view Creation or Evolution.  Basically, what I mean is that if you are a Creationist, your scientific approaches will be based on Intelligent Design.  If you are an Evolutionist, your approaches will be directed towards abiogenesis and proving the theory to be true.

The only problem with this is the pre-assumption of one or the other to be true.  For example, let's take radiometric dating. Any scientist, (Creationist or Evolutionist) will admit that the acceptable scientific limit of dating is a total 10 half-lives.  Carbon dating then, can date to around 57000 years (half-life 5730 years).  So, say a scientist goes out to date a mammoth specimen.  If he is an Evolutionist, he automatically assumes the Earth to be millions of years old and cannot accept a date of 7000 years for the mammoth. If the results from his test do not support millions of years, then the results are discarded as anomalies.  A Creationist (young Earth) views the Earth as only 6-7 thousand years old, and will keep the same results and the anomalies are considered fact.

I personally believe in Creation and a young Earth and a global flood. There is no scientific evidence to refute Creation and there is ample evidence to support it. On the other hand, there are several holes in the evolutionary theory that cannot be explained with a scientific approach. This is why I went from being a Creationist to Evolutionist to Gap Theorist back to Creationist. I know you'll want examples, so I'll try some short ones. One would be the migratory path of the Pacific Golden Plover (I live in Alaska and like this bird) - flies from Alaska to Hawaii non-stop. It cannot have evolved this trait, because there are no stopover points between AK and HI. Also, the bird cannot ingest enough fuel to make the trip solo. It has to fly in a V-formation with a group for wind resistance. If it evolved over time, each successive generation hits the water, runs out of gas, or is not aware of the V-formation.  It cannot pass on the necessary adaptation or mutation since it would be dead.  Another quick one would be the giraffe drinking water. It's neck is long and it has a sponge in the base of its brain to slow blood flow. If it stoops to drink, without the sponge there is too much blood flow to the brain and it dies. If it is spooked and raises up fast, too much blood flows from the brain and it dies.  It cannot pass on this trait if it is dead so the sponge cannot have evolved over time.  Lastly is ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. Sadly, this is still taught as fact, even though its facilitator admitted to falsifying the information long ago. It is difficult for me to believe in evolution because people still have to create false concepts to support it.  

Using the scientific method, we test theories to see if they withstand our experiments. If they cannot support the results, the theory is discarded or remains hypothesis. If the results prove accurate, new tests are done over and over until the theory is accepted as law. I don't believe Evolution can ever be 'proven' with modern science, but just to be fair, neither can Creation. Creation is based on faith, or believing things you cannot see.  The same can be said about the beginnings of the universe according to evolution. No one saw the Big Bang, but some still believe it.

As for how it all began, the most common theist argument against evolution that I have encountered is that "nothing living comes from something non-living." Well, the fact that up until this day scientists were un-able to produce a living organism from non-livign compounds does not mean that it can't be done. All in all, I think it a likely scenario.

I see your point on this.  You can also explain things such as vestigal organs in the same sense. We assume some organs vestigal because we have not studied them enough. The more we learn about them, the more we realize that there are no vestigal organs, only a lack of study to understand them. This leads me personally to believe in Intelligent Design. Just because we don't understand it yet, doesn't mean that it is useless. There are too many things in this world with unique similarities and differences that are easily explained with ID. It is a little more difficult to do the same with evolution.

Sorry this is a long response.  I'll cut it short here and continue later.  Again, thanks for the opportunity to discuss these topics in a civilized forum.

[myleviathan]

There is no scientific evidence to refute Creation and there is ample evidence to support it.

I don't believe either idea in itself can be considered a science.

Hi, Hunter. Welcome to the forum. I am by no means an expert in biology or evolution. I was a communication major. Although I do have some science background before I changed my major.

Anyway, I see your point about not being able to recreate macro-evolution. You're saying it's a belief. I see where you're coming from, except it's not a belief as much as it is a theory. The difference is that a theory is built on a foundation of evidence. Beliefs generally develop over a period of time for reasons that are mostly superstitious. Creation is a superstitious belief held the world over. It's been around for as long as people have been around. And now, since the advent of scientific reasoning, there is a thing called Creation Science (or ID, or Young Earth or whatever) which tries to seek out evidence to support this superstitious age-old belief. So to say that there is ample evidence to support creation is mostly a contrived sort of evidence. The evidence wasn't gathered to seek truth, quite the opposite. Evidence was gathered to support an already sacred belief. Evolution was born out of the search for truth. So the efforts by evolutionary scientists  are only adding to the original scientific base of support. Creationists are trying to marry superstition and science, which will never stand for long.