Delusions

[Asmodean]

Freinds respect each other despite their different beliefs.

Some people just can't.

Cut those out of your life with a rusty butter knife and problem gone, yes?

[Sweetdeath]

Freinds respect each other despite their different beliefs.

Some people just can't.

Cut those out of your life with a rusty butter knife and problem gone, yes?

That's what I do.

[keithpenrod]

I just had a friend message me "I know that the church is true and I know that you know. And nothing you say will ever convince me otherwise" (ok, so that's a paraphrase, but it preserves his meaning). 

I think Amicale is right that such responses are based in fear -- he's just comforting himself, and that overrules understanding how asinine his statement is.  Me, I'd respond with "I'm fine with whatever makes you feel better", which is kind of snotty in a passive-aggressive way but I can be like that. 

Yeah, I'm kind of like that too.  I didn't really think of it as snotty, but I suppose that's me being nice to myself.  I've often said things such as "If it makes you feel better about yourself to say/think that, that's great.  I know how I feel and I believe that I've expressed it sufficiently well."

[xSilverPhinx]

I just had a friend message me "I know that the church is true and I know that you know. And nothing you say will ever convince me otherwise" (ok, so that's a paraphrase, but it preserves his meaning). 

I think Amicale is right that such responses are based in fear -- he's just comforting himself, and that overrules understanding how asinine his statement is.  Me, I'd respond with "I'm fine with whatever makes you feel better", which is kind of snotty in a passive-aggressive way but I can be like that. 

Yeah, I'm kind of like that too.  I didn't really think of it as snotty, but I suppose that's me being nice to myself.  I've often said things such as "If it makes you feel better about yourself to say/think that, that's great.  I know how I feel and I believe that I've expressed it sufficiently well."

I would be slightly more blunt and say something more like "look, don't confuse me for yourself, ok. Just because you feel you need it doesn't mean that I do."

But then again some people really test my patience.

[Sandra Craft]

Yeah, I'm kind of like that too.  I didn't really think of it as snotty, but I suppose that's me being nice to myself.  I've often said things such as "If it makes you feel better about yourself to say/think that, that's great.  I know how I feel and I believe that I've expressed it sufficiently well."

Well, when I thought about it I might as well be patting the person on his head.  Probably just be better to say "I understand", because I do -- I was raised in a religious family and I know the drill.

I would be slightly more blunt and say something more like "look, don't confuse me for yourself, ok. Just because you feel you need it doesn't mean that I do."

But then again some people really test my patience.

And then some people are just more out there. 

[xSilverPhinx]

I would be slightly more blunt and say something more like "look, don't confuse me for yourself, ok. Just because you feel you need it doesn't mean that I do."

But then again some people really test my patience.

And then some people are just more out there. 

Heheh it's an acquired habit.

[Beachdragon]

Freinds respect each other despite their different beliefs.

Some people just can't.

Cut those out of your life with a rusty butter knife and problem gone, yes?

That's what I do.

I do too.  In my circle of friends there is one who has become a Catholic Deacon.  I remember once he and his wife were at our Dungeons & Dragons game (He avidly plays D&D if you can imagine) and his wife launched into a Government is Against my Religion tirade.

I really wanted to rip her a new one but decided to excuse myself (she was doing this to a room full of Pagans and Athiests). 

Since then, I won't have anything to do with her and he's on the edge of my never wanting to ever deal with him again.  He's usually not in your face about it, but he's getting a little too pushy about asking us to come to his church on Sunday.  I'm just going to not associate all that much anymore.

[Amicale]

It occurs to me that both sides often do this, and it can hurt -- sometimes atheists drop Christian friends because of their pushiness, preachiness, etc... and sometimes religious people drop atheist friends because they tend to think we're going to hell. When I've had a "friend" in the past decide to drop me like a hot potato just because of what I do or don't believe, I shrug it off, and try and move on. It hurts for a bit, especially if we used to be close, but I figure someone who'll ditch me just because I don't happen to believe in God... well, they must not have been much of a friend, anyhow.

By the same token, I don't distance myself from religious friends just because they're religious. I can put up with different ideas and opinions, no problem. The time to drop a friendship or distance yourself from a friend though, I think, is when they stop respecting you for being who you are, and start seeing you as just one more hellbound person to save. I REFUSE to become anyone's project. I don't try to deconvert religious friends, so I ask that they not try to beat me over the head with whichever holy book they prefer. Fair's fair.

Beachdragon: It doesn't surprise me one bit that your guy friend, the Catholic, plays D&D. On the whole, even Catholics who are really religious/serious about their faith (including the radical traditionalist Catholics, or rad-trads) still have no problem fitting OK into the secular world. They play games, drink beer, etc. They're more balanced in that regard than, say, the Southern Baptists tend to be.

[keithpenrod]

It occurs to me that both sides often do this, and it can hurt -- sometimes atheists drop Christian friends because of their pushiness, preachiness, etc... and sometimes religious people drop atheist friends because they tend to think we're going to hell. When I've had a "friend" in the past decide to drop me like a hot potato just because of what I do or don't believe, I shrug it off, and try and move on. It hurts for a bit, especially if we used to be close, but I figure someone who'll ditch me just because I don't happen to believe in God... well, they must not have been much of a friend, anyhow.

By the same token, I don't distance myself from religious friends just because they're religious. I can put up with different ideas and opinions, no problem. The time to drop a friendship or distance yourself from a friend though, I think, is when they stop respecting you for being who you are, and start seeing you as just one more hellbound person to save. I REFUSE to become anyone's project. I don't try to deconvert religious friends, so I ask that they not try to beat me over the head with whichever holy book they prefer. Fair's fair.

Beachdragon: It doesn't surprise me one bit that your guy friend, the Catholic, plays D&D. On the whole, even Catholics who are really religious/serious about their faith (including the radical traditionalist Catholics, or rad-trads) still have no problem fitting OK into the secular world. They play games, drink beer, etc. They're more balanced in that regard than, say, the Southern Baptists tend to be.

(To be honest, I had never thought of D&D as a secular thing.  I played similar games when I was a child, as a faithful Mormon, and my parents didn't seem to be bothered by it.)

I have only dropped/blocked a few people, and it's only when they're being inappropriately aggressive or cruel and only after I've given a warning that I would do so unless they could be more civil.  I don't mind preachy people, but when they keep saying how I'm destroying their family and how they need to protect their children from me, etc, then I think that's going too far. 

On the other hand, I've had tons of people unfriend me.  Since I came out (as gay) a year ago, I've had nearly 100 people unfriend me--40 just within a week or two, 20 or 30 more when I said I had left Mormonism a few months later, and they've just been trickling out of my friends list since then.  To me that's just a sign that they're uncomfortable with people questioning their religious beliefs.  I figure what good is a belief if you can't stand to have it be questioned?  If it's true, then it will stand up against any scrutiny to which it is put.

[Amicale]

It occurs to me that both sides often do this, and it can hurt -- sometimes atheists drop Christian friends because of their pushiness, preachiness, etc... and sometimes religious people drop atheist friends because they tend to think we're going to hell. When I've had a "friend" in the past decide to drop me like a hot potato just because of what I do or don't believe, I shrug it off, and try and move on. It hurts for a bit, especially if we used to be close, but I figure someone who'll ditch me just because I don't happen to believe in God... well, they must not have been much of a friend, anyhow.

By the same token, I don't distance myself from religious friends just because they're religious. I can put up with different ideas and opinions, no problem. The time to drop a friendship or distance yourself from a friend though, I think, is when they stop respecting you for being who you are, and start seeing you as just one more hellbound person to save. I REFUSE to become anyone's project. I don't try to deconvert religious friends, so I ask that they not try to beat me over the head with whichever holy book they prefer. Fair's fair.

Beachdragon: It doesn't surprise me one bit that your guy friend, the Catholic, plays D&D. On the whole, even Catholics who are really religious/serious about their faith (including the radical traditionalist Catholics, or rad-trads) still have no problem fitting OK into the secular world. They play games, drink beer, etc. They're more balanced in that regard than, say, the Southern Baptists tend to be.

(To be honest, I had never thought of D&D as a secular thing.  I played similar games when I was a child, as a faithful Mormon, and my parents didn't seem to be bothered by it.)

I have only dropped/blocked a few people, and it's only when they're being inappropriately aggressive or cruel and only after I've given a warning that I would do so unless they could be more civil.  I don't mind preachy people, but when they keep saying how I'm destroying their family and how they need to protect their children from me, etc, then I think that's going too far. 

On the other hand, I've had tons of people unfriend me.  Since I came out (as gay) a year ago, I've had nearly 100 people unfriend me--40 just within a week or two, 20 or 30 more when I said I had left Mormonism a few months later, and they've just been trickling out of my friends list since then.  To me that's just a sign that they're uncomfortable with people questioning their religious beliefs.  I figure what good is a belief if you can't stand to have it be questioned?  If it's true, then it will stand up against any scrutiny to which it is put.

Keith, I'm sorry about the experiences you've had. I've had similar ones - although I don't think it was to the tune of a hundred people, but if we're just counting facebook 'friends', I've only ever had 25 to 30 peole on my facebook and I know them all well, and personally. Anyhow, when I came out as gay years ago, I certainly lost some friends. We were all young (late teens to early 20s) and some of them just couldn't handle me being different. I remember one old friend asking "so, you're gay." "yep!" "do you have a crush on me?" "hell no!" and so on, and so forth. My family and friends who stayed close with me handled it pretty well, mostly welcomed my then-girlfriend into the family, etc. It's the coming out as atheist that's more difficult, ironically. Some people know, some don't. A couple friends who know I don't believe in God chose to drop me like hot coal, so they ceased to be friends.

I totally agree with you, though -- what's so scary about having your beliefs questioned? Are they really so shaky that they'll collapse like a house of cards if you question too much? Anything worth believing should stand up to questions and scrutiny, just as you said. The ironic thing is, I wouldn't have challenged them on their beliefs. Some people are debaters, some people are peacemakers. We need both in the world, but I'm generally a peacemaker. It was just the act of saying 'I don't believe in God' that scared a couple of them off.

I've always found it funny that 'I'm a lesbian' went over far better.  Guess I can thank living in Canada for that one. Land of gay marriage, yet home to a wide majority of at least casual theists.

[Asherah]

I would say, "Well, if nothing I say will ever convince you otherwise, then I guess I won't say anything."

[Sandra Craft]

I've always found it funny that 'I'm a lesbian' went over far better.  Guess I can thank living in Canada for that one. Land of gay marriage, yet home to a wide majority of at least casual theists.

I've found that admitting to one often makes people assume the other around here.  While this is true in my case it seems like very sloppy thinking generally.

[Asherah]

Yea, my brother came out as gay, but won't come out as an agnostic!!

[Amicale]

I've always found it funny that 'I'm a lesbian' went over far better.  Guess I can thank living in Canada for that one. Land of gay marriage, yet home to a wide majority of at least casual theists.

I've found that admitting to one often makes people assume the other around here.  While this is true in my case it seems like very sloppy thinking generally.

Hmm, interesting. I wouldn't say this is generally the case here. Although a common perception in society here seems to be that if you're gay you're probably an atheist, I've still been asked which church I go to, just because in my area there are huge numbers of gay folks in the Unitarian Universalist as well as the Anglican church. I've gotta say, despite my disagreement on theological stuff with the Anglicans, I do think it's pretty cool that they're determined to be as inclusive as possible. There are pastors there who are gay, female, female and gay, any combination of the above.   My ex-girlfriend who I'm still good friends with is a lifelong Anglican, she loves the community there. They do seem to be pretty welcoming. Heck, once I went to church with her and told a couple people there that I wasn't Anglican. They asked what I was, and at the time, I said 'Agnostic'. Their response was 'Oh, cool. Want to grab coffee after church?' so 4 of us did. As for the UU's, well, there's any combination of beliefs and orientations there. I'd check them out for sure, sometime.

[keithpenrod]

I've always found it funny that 'I'm a lesbian' went over far better.  Guess I can thank living in Canada for that one. Land of gay marriage, yet home to a wide majority of at least casual theists.

I've found that admitting to one often makes people assume the other around here.  While this is true in my case it seems like very sloppy thinking generally.

Hmm, interesting. I wouldn't say this is generally the case here. Although a common perception in society here seems to be that if you're gay you're probably an atheist, I've still been asked which church I go to, just because in my area there are huge numbers of gay folks in the Unitarian Universalist as well as the Anglican church. I've gotta say, despite my disagreement on theological stuff with the Anglicans, I do think it's pretty cool that they're determined to be as inclusive as possible. There are pastors there who are gay, female, female and gay, any combination of the above.   My ex-girlfriend who I'm still good friends with is a lifelong Anglican, she loves the community there. They do seem to be pretty welcoming. Heck, once I went to church with her and told a couple people there that I wasn't Anglican. They asked what I was, and at the time, I said 'Agnostic'. Their response was 'Oh, cool. Want to grab coffee after church?' so 4 of us did. As for the UU's, well, there's any combination of beliefs and orientations there. I'd check them out for sure, sometime.

Yeah, there are some people that I don't know if I'll ever tell that I'm atheist.  I mean, I'm "out" on Facebook and on my blog, but many people don't use either one, so they won't know unless I tell them personally.  There's a really sweet old lady that I became friends with when I was Mormon, because I went with the missionaries to teach her about the church.  I've maintained my friendship with her even though I've left the church.  (Sadly, most Mormons won't talk to me anymore, but she's pretty cool.)  Anyway, when I told her I was gay and introduced her to my bf, she was all cool with it, and with me leaving the church.  She just said "Just as long as you don't stop believing in god."  She asks me to say grace when I have dinner with her.  I oblige, just because she's such a sweet lady and I don't think there's any harm in it.  It's not like she's pushing her beliefs on me, or that she'd judge me if I told her I was atheist.  It's just that she's so sweet about it and I feel like I'd break her heart if I did tell her. 

My grandma's another story.  She has been having increasingly severe memory loss over the last couple years.  I've never told her that I'm gay or atheist, and I don't know if I will.  We're going out to visit family next month, and I'm sure we'll go see her.  I think, though, that I'll just introduce my bf as a "friend".  I mean, I wouldn't have too much issue trying to explain it to her if I knew I'd only have to explain it once, but she'll forget bits of the conversation and end up asking the same question multiple times all within a few minutes.  I don't really want to explain it to her multiple times, so I think I'll just lay low. 

As for most of my family, I think for them the announcement that I'm atheist came as an aftershock to the announcement that I'm gay, so it was less severe.  Kind of like, they were already dazed by me being gay and therefore didn't really notice that I'm not a believer anymore.  Or maybe once they recover from the shock of me being gay, then they'll be able to address the shock of me being atheist.  I'm not sure.  But they're all excited to see me and meet my bf when we come, so I'm hopeful.