I am a Christian.

[mattreed]

If you've always lived made out of plastic in a plastic world, you'd never know flesh or wooden structures. Nothing seems artificial about it at all, we have no way, in this form, to understand it's materialization, we can describe the materialization beautifully.

I don't think I was clear. I apologize. What do you see in the natural world that can only be explained by the existence of a supernatural designer? I'd be glad to address these phenomena.

Blood circulatory systems, light into mental image via retina, light in general, love I experience, the particular placement of my hands, arms, eyes, nose, ears, sound. You can describe these functions in as many human descriptors as you want to, if it wasn't designed than it wouldn't remain intact, it would overwhelm and crumble itself, the perpetual balance of life in general, the 73% of unexplained universe, the amazing efficiently of the atom as a block of information, the variety of animal life that lives in ultimate harmony, the impossibility for water to exist in its quantity by random comets because of how close our planet is to the sun, and that comet ice is completely different from the water we have an abundance of, how we eat and drink and are alive from this without any conscious breaking down of food and conscious conversion into electrical energy. You can describe these functions to me all you want, but I will keep believing in the amazing ability of God until man can match Him.

[mattreed]

Dude, now it sounds like you are just making crap up how ever you want. What you are saying would only make sense if the message and story of the afterlife was exactly the same. There are different stories about god based on geographic location. Don’t you think if “god” talked to these different people, then the story would all be the same throughout the world?

If only one story is the right out of all of them, then why not the story of Allah and Mohammed? The Muslim religion is well documented and practiced by more people around the world than Christianity. Wouldn’t you want 72 virgins in the afterlife instead of some wings, a harp and no genitals?

I don't think that one story is right over another, I believe they are all coming from the same source and basically are telling the same story of morals and spirituality, but they have varying levels of man's corruption. I wouldn't want 72 virgins because I used to have a problem with lust, lust had power over me, and I don't want anything to have power over me. If I find something negative about a religion, I avoid it, its a personal journey, I feel its necessary. Jesus isn't above me, we were both flesh at one point in time, he's a great example for me to take examples from as I go on my own personal connection with my spirit, I know it exists. If Allah and Mohammad and Buddah allow for people to be spiritually satisfied, I would caution them in some of the subtleties of negativity I find in their choices, as I do with you and your belief, but I do not by any means want to force anything on anyone, because of how personal this experience is.

Honestly I feel as though I should stop responding to things because I realize my post was made as an effort to impose on your beliefs, and I feel I was being unfair to your beliefs, but I will continue what I started I suppose.

[Mister Joy]

I have always believed this, this is why I think it's designed.

You're banking a lot on the teleological argument's assertion that everything in the universe is ordered (even if it appears chaotic). The antithesis of chaos theory (something I'm much more interested in) which implies that a set of entirely chaotic circumstances and conditions will invariably amalgamate into an apparent pattern, or seeming 'order', or ecological system, etc - a prime example being the weather: it has patterns, can be predicted, and could be described as ordered but it's formed and affected by a vast array of random contributors from the mountains of Northern India to a single leaf on a tree somewhere in Brazil.

I'm still ok with the insinuation of universal order, owing to the fact that 'order' and 'chaos' are very abstract, entirely subjective and almost absurdist concepts, however that isn't all you're saying. You're making assumptions about what the overall 'sum' of that order is: a conscious, sentient being that you would call Yahweh. Why is it a mind? Why a he as opposed to a she or a they or - and this is what seems most likely to me - an it. A non-living, non-thinking, non-emotional, lifeless thing. Even if we run with the assumption that the universe is an example or product of a perfect order, what about this suggests the presence of a God? Experience? Experience, if this is the case, tells us that sentient conscious entities are a product and example of this order and complexity, not that order and complexity are a product and example of a working mind. So existence itself is liable to be about as sentient as a dinner plate, surely?

But then you could come along with the classic teleological definition of order:

order = functional - one thing or a network of things perpetrates another with that purpose, like the cogs in a clock.

And if something has a function or and intent behind it - a purpose to fulfil - then it implies a brain to hold that intent, thus an ordered universe implies the presence of a creator. This is how we distinguish order from chaos, isn't it? We can look at a clock and say "those cogs are as they are because a man made them with them with the express purpose of communicating the time, ergo they are ordered."

Notice though that the statement that there's a mind there, that there is an intent there, precedes the statement that the thing is ordered. If you go by the aforementioned definition of 'order' then you need to have either the knowledge (eg. that clocks are made by man) or the assumption (eg. that universes are made by Gods) of a conscious intent or purpose set up before you can make the statement that anything is 'ordered'. So the teleological argument is a very tight example of circular logic, in that case:

You assume that there is a God, use that assumption to find and point out 'order', then use the 'order' that you've found to support the existence of God.

[Will]

Excellent!

Blood circulatory systems,

I'm sure you've seen evolutionary models showing that life on Earth was once only microscopic (as is demonstrated through the fossil record). Over the billions of years that life has existed on this planet, the evolutionary route of certain species has led to larger and larger organisms. As organisms became larger and larger, the system by which they disperse nourishment had to change. If you look at the circulatory system in an ant, you see what's called an "open" circulatory system, where the organs get their nourishment by osmosis. Unfortunately, this does not work well for creatures that are larger than insects. Can you imagine how long it would take nourishment to go from the duodenum to the brain? This limited the size of animals until a genetic mutation created a pump. That pump was able to push the nourishment farther, reaching more extremities. This allowed animals to grow larger and larger. Eventually veins formed along the pump which helped the nourishment go further and further. This is how the circulatory system developed.

light into mental image via retina,

I just made a thread about this, actually. It's located here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1325
I hope you'll post any questions you might have.

light in general,

Light is energy.

love I experience,

Love is several things. It's an emotional response, a psychological phenomena, and a biochemical reaction. Chemicals like dopamine are released in response to the emotional stimuli which are a response to meeting certain psychological cues.

the particular placement of my hands, arms, eyes, nose, ears, sound.

Hands: located on limbs in order to aid in movement and the ability to hold and climb. Arms: closer to the head to that they can protect the brain and eyes. Nose, close to the eyes so they can work in tandem to ascertain information faster. Ears: close to the brain for speed, and on each side of the head to get 360 degree coverage. Sound is vibrations in the air.

You can describe these functions in as many human descriptors as you want to, if it wasn't designed than it wouldn't remain intact, it would overwhelm and crumble itself,

There is no evidence to suggest this. If a function is unfavorable to the survival of the species, odds are that it will be removed through selection eventually. If it is a survival or beneficial trait, then it will remain intact so long as it's a boon.

the perpetual balance of life in general, the 73% of unexplained universe,

That which is out of site is beyond explanation?

the amazing efficiently of the atom as a block of information,

Atoms don't store information.

the variety of animal life that lives in ultimate harmony,

Most places in the universe kill life instantly. The amazing amounts of heat and cold along with radiation are instantly deadly to all forms of life, even water bears. Natural disasters strike all the time. I myself have experienced earthquakes and tornadoes. China just lost quite a few good people in an earthquake. Disease claims millions of lives a year. 90% of all the life that has ever lived on Earth is now completely extinct. It took over 3.5 billion years just to make multicellular life. Have you ever seen someone with multiple sclerosis? Leukemia? And those are just the unhealthy people. Perfectly healthy people are likely to die from cancer or heart disease. We exhale MOST of the oxygen we inhale. We sleep for 1/3 of our life. And worst of all, our pleasure center is right next door to our waste disposal plant. I'd not call any of that harmony. It's the chaotic part of living in our universe.

the impossibility for water to exist in its quantity by random comets because of how close our planet is to the sun, and that comet ice is completely different from the water we have an abundance of,

I did a little reading on this one, because I wasn't sure off the top of my head. It seems the most likely explanation is that the Earth actually formed much farther from our Sun than we had previously supposed. This will have meant that the Earth will have been at the right distance from the Sun to run into plenty of frozen H20.

how we eat and drink and are alive from this without any conscious breaking down of food and conscious conversion into electrical energy.

Some part of our body respond to our conscious mindâ€"from our fingers to our toesâ€"but many functions are basically automated. Things like the heart-beat and digestion happen due to a different part of our nervous system; the sympathetic nervous system.

You can describe these functions to me all you want, but I will keep believing in the amazing ability of God until man can match Him.

This is a dangerous attitude, Matt. So God is responsible even for things that have a perfectly reasonable and supported explanation? This is a turning point in your life. Are you going to become one of those people that says god put fossils in the ground to test us? Or will you allow your critical thinking to continue developing? And just to be clear, I'm not asking you to become atheist. I'm not even asking you to not believe in god. I'm just requesting that you not allow the discrepancies between science/reason and religion to force you to make a rash and unfortunate choice.

[joeactor]

So the teleological argument is a very tight example of circular logic, in that case:
You assume that there is a God, use that assumption to find and point out 'order', then use the 'order' that you've found to support the existence of God.

Mister Joy has a very valid point.

Matt: many of your answers employ circular reasoning...

I'm a Christian because I believe in Jesus.
I believe in Jesus because I'm a Christian.

Here's an example of a question, a circular logic answer, and a real answer:

Q) Why are you a baker?

A1) I'm a baker because I bake things.
(circular logic)

A2) I always loved to eat, and have a very discerning pallate.  My family owned a restaraunt, and I started as a waiter.  I moved on to prep work and cooking, but soon discovered I liked to be more precise.  I enrolled in a cullinary school and looked over a variety of options.  Baking seemed like the best fit for my desires and skills.  I now run my own bakery and I've been happy with it ever since.
(linear logic)

Circular or Recursive logic are not real answers.

You don't have to answer these questions now.
Take some time.
Really think about it.

The answer may be that you were raised a Christian.
Or had an influental teacher who believed in Christ.

So... one more time:
Why are you a Christian?

JoeActor

[jcm]

they have varying levels of man's corruption

Indeed, but not yours of course.

I don't want anything to have power over me.

What like the sun, water, oxygen, & food? Or do you just mean dirty stuff sex, yuck! What about going to the bathroom, which you also have no control over? You should just staple your ass shut because that is pure concentrated evil coming out of you.

If I find something negative about a religion, I avoid it, its a personal journey,

I thought we were trying to get to the truth, not your version of it. Making up stories is easy for anyone. That says nothing about the truth.

My method:
Idea â€" test - proof â€" truth
Idea â€" test â€" inconclusive evidence â€" I don’t know

Your method:
Idea â€" sounds great â€" truth/good
Idea â€" sounds bad â€" evil/wrong/untrue

[jcm]

...even water bears

HAHAHA!

[Will]

[Whitney]

You now understand that evolution isn't random, right? I hope I explained it well enough.

I have always believed this, this is why I think it's designed.

What do you think of this video:

 [youtube:7ihq5tst]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia4B_xqFjoc[/youtube:7ihq5tst]

I could have written out a lengthy response about what I think about the idea of nature being designed...but the video adds humor and gets the point across.

[joeactor]

*** Warning!  Way off topic! ***

...even water bears

HAHAHA!

Hey, don't laugh... they're very dangerous!
(almost as bad as a "sea rhinoceros")

The more you know,
JoeActor

[myleviathan]

I agree with you on what people have done with religion, I don't include myself in religion, I believe there is enough in the Bible for me to create my own beliefs on what is morally correct and I build my own spirituality with Jesus Christ as an example.

Create your own beliefs based on the Bible? God didn't write the Bible. Jesus didn't write the Bible. People did. It's still all hearsay. Whether you place your trust only in the Bible, you're still not putting trust in Jesus as much as you are in people. Ancient superstitious people. I've heard it said from other Christians that if you could distill the purpose of the Bible into a few words, it would be "Self-Sacrificing Love." I've also heard the Bible defined as a "love letter". But you don't need to know anything about Jesus to know how to love others. Sure, it's a decent example, but the Bible confuses the issue of morality and love more than it encourages that sort of behavior. We all create our own beliefs based on things we learn, but to only have one frame of reference (Jesus) is narrow minded.

I haven't been sick for 2 years, I feel this is because I am conscious of my spiritual balance as well as my physical balance.

What? To be perfectly honest that's rediculous. I guarantee you will get sick at some point. And not to be a pessimist, but you'll die too. We all will. Whether or not you get sick is no sign of any spiritual balance.

I believe more in God than ever, and nothing here is nothing I haven't already heard from other Atheists, none of it disproves God

We're not trying to disprove God. Just like it was stated earlier. You can't prove a negative assumption. But you can look at all the facts and make a sober discernment of reality. Fourth dimentions are not sober discernments of reality.

In the dimensions above, we are a materialization of their thoughts. I cannot prove this, but science has proven the existence of multiple dimensions,and because atoms are made of 99.9999% empty space, it seems plausible to me that everything is made up of 99.9999% empty space

Now this is just getting weird. But what does empty space have to do with multiple dimensions?

I feel Jesus

How does he feel?

and the truth I end up with is invaluable to me, because it made me feel better than ever, and that eventually, negativity will be impossible because of my convictions.

It seems like you discern your own truth based on how you feel. Which is fine, we all have a right to that. However, truth is truth whether you feel sick or not, and whether it makes you feel good or bad or makes you want to shoot yourself in the face. I'm not convinced after reading your posts that truth is what you value so much as feelings based on your own interpretation of the New Testament.

I don't mean to sound rude or disrespectful, but that's just my assessment.

[Will]

I've not been sick for a few years also, but mine is more due to ingesting healthy food and exercising not praising god. Multivitamins used to be considered evil by the Catholic church.

[rlrose328]

Right now, your response supports the arrogant stereotype that people place on atheists, and I'm sure you don't want that, or perhaps you do.

How nice that you can call the kettle black, my friend.  Your entire first email was nothing short of arrogant.  I'm sorry that, when you were a non-believer, you felt you were responsible for everything on earth.  Not one of the atheists I takes that responsibility.  I don't believe that science created everything, nor do I believe that *I* know everything there is to know simply because I eschew a belief in a deity.  I'm stumbling, just as all humanity stumbles... however, I don't waste time praying for a solution.  I create a solution and get on with it.

You are the worst type of Christian, coming here and baiting the weak-minded atheists with pseudo debates about science and your past as a non-believer humbling you to belief instead of just believing in your god and letting us conduct our lives without it.  At least we're honest about our arrogance.  You flaunt yours and then attempt to maintain innocence.  

[rlrose328]

If I die and there is nothing, at least I died trying to gain eternal life and spread love and happiness along the way, what greater goal? And at least to have a positive goal in death, rather than nothing.

I could go line by line in your original post and just have a field day but I'll stick with this one quote.  Again with the holier than thou attitude here.  It insinuates that only believers can live a life spreading love and happiness whereas atheists live for nothing.

Nothing could be further from the truth.  We live our lives full of sharing, spreading of love and happiness and all that those things entail.  I so tire of the believer's notion that we are merely hanging around, waiting to drift off into nothingness, possibly worshipping the devil or murdering small animals at midnight, encouraging people to be gay or spreading hatred around like peanut butter, hoping small children will take a taste and get caught in our web.  Such misconceptions are dangerous, ill-conceived and just plain rude.

You may say that at least you were a good person and what's wrong with that... but you're doing it so you can get into heaven, so your good works are completely self-serving.  The atheistic standpoint, however, is to do what's right, REGARDLESS of the "payoff" or result, good or bad, because we only get this one shot at life and why spend it trying to make mistakes or hurt others?  It doesn't serve the human race to hurt others... makes no sense at all.

[SteveS]

the arrogant stereotype that people place on atheists

Honestly - how did this stereotype develop?  I don't get this.  Here:

Theist: There is a god.  I don't need physical evidence or anything, I just know it, in my heart, to be true.

Atheist: How can you claim to know that?  I don't see how anyone could possibly know that.  I certainly don't know that.

Theist: You atheists are so arrogant!

Atheist: Um, color me confused.....

Theist: Look, I just know it to be true, okay, I can't tell you why or how.  But you better believe me, on my word, because I'm right!!!!

Atheist: And you think I'm arrogant?!?