I am a Christian.

[mattreed]

Are you prepared to lose your faith?

If so, then the first question (which Will alluded to) is:

Why are you a Christian?
(as opposed to any other religion)

Sunday Smackdown,
JoeActor

Yes Joe, I am willing to put my faith at risk. I would be prepared to lose my faith if it was my honest opinion. I am a Christian because I believe that Jesus Christ was a great example of a good man, and he claimed to be a close son of God which is something I aspire to be sometime in the realm beyond the third dimension. I feel that God has provided me with everything I've ever had, I used to not believe this, but since then, I've come to the conclusion that everything that exists is a materialization of thought, things like the make-up of the atom, how particles can transform into waves, also having personally witnessed paranormal activity, how amazing light is, how incredible in design nature is. I feel that man does a great job of describing these things, but I don't need man's proof to believe 100% that a single God exists, because I feel strongly in the positive character of Jesus Christ, and am willing to believe what he says is truth.

[jcm]

Matt you did not answer the question posed.

Why do you not believe the story of Dionysus -- son of Greek god Zeus, which was also born Dec. 25th from a virgin mother?

What makes the story of Jesus more creditable than any other story of virgin births and magic tricks?

[joeactor]

Matt you did not answer the question posed.

Why do you not get the same inspiration from the story of Dionysus -- son of Greek god Zeus, which was also born Dec. 25th from a virgin mother?

What makes the story of Jesus more creditable than any other story of virgin births and magic tricks?

I agree.  Why choose one story over any other?
That is the real question.

If you're starting with the assumption that Jesus was real, you may want to reconsider.  Take a look at the lack of any historical evidence for the man known as "Jesus" (outside of the bible, of course).  Here's a good place to start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

It's interesting to note that there is much more evidence outside the bible for John the Baptist than for Jesus.  Odd, don't you think?

Mithras anyone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras

Man <-- ?created? --> God(s)
JoeActor

[mattreed]

If I die and there is nothing, at least I died trying to gain eternal life and spread love and happiness along the way, what greater goal? And at least to have a positive goal in death, rather than nothing.

One of the things that atheists seem to have a good grasp on is the concept that we have only one go-around on this planet, and that there is no life after death.  I would urge you in your quest for understanding, Matt, to consider this as a possibility.  When theists state that there is no harm in believing in god and spending their lives in a quest for eternal life is a worthwhile endeavor, they fail to realize that there is so much else to learn in such little time.  Biology, chemistry, geology, and physics are but a few of the many areas of science that can help us gain a better understanding of the way that the universe works.  You will not learn more about the universe in a church (and I spent a good part of my life in church - time that I will regrettably never get back), and any scientific eye that you have will be colored by the idea that what you are observing was created.  This reminds me of an encounter with a coworker when I explained to her how a rainbow forms.  After a moment of looking puzzled, she said to me that she would rather just know that the rainbow was god's creation and be done with it.  I would rather know how it works.  I personally  find the lifelong journey of understanding the basic forces of the universe (with an objective eye unclouded by the confusion and dissonance that the belief in god creates) as a meaningful and satisfying pursuit.

I agree that there is only one go around on this planet in this form, but there is life after death, personally I think that no life after death is more unreasonable than life after death. I see the universe as a manifestation of perfect balance, and that in physical death, you achieve the opposite eternal life. Spending your life to gain eternal life is unnecessary, it's a choice, to obsess over it is kind of defeating the purpose of life in the first place, to experience and grow, I have a major problem with the hypocrisies that my fellow Christians exhibit. I love biology, chemistry, botany, the geological records have astounding information, physics are great fun, I'm in a constant battle to defy them, I made a magnetic vortex motor that can overcome its own friction, I'm going to use it as a model for how magnetic vortexes and electrical vortexes when in equilibrium can actually attain anti-gravity, fun stuff! I believe that all of that stuff is designed by God, the working matter of the universe, I believe is a crafted living design, and we can describe it and study it and understand the rainbow, but we can only imitate the process of the rainbow, we cannot create the process itself. I had a horrible experience in a Catholic church and Catholic school, they only wanted me to be subservient and sad at myself, since then I've realized 90% of religion is corrupted by human selfishness. The greatest evils hide in the cloak of goodness, spirituality and my relationship with God is a personal matter, I don't want to expect someone to do it for me, because then they get on a power trip. I say you conquer the confusion in another way than denying it, it's still there. When it comes down to it, believing in nothing at all is just as extreme as believing in everything, and believing in a middle ground is impossible, and personally I think that God's existence makes perfect sense.

[mattreed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Hey Matt did you check out any of these other religions before making your finally decision about god? Or did you make it easy on yourself and pick a religion that was closest to home?

Great questions Will and Joe!

Yes, I considered many other religions, the ideas of self-enlightenment and multiple Gods don't really ring my bell, because of the focus on the self, and if there are multiple God's that leads to too much confusion on which should be praised higher or lower. I personally believe in making myself a benefit to others rather than to myself, because when I share my abilities and work for others I spread happiness to them and receive some happiness in return, so it spreads rather than remains my own. This is what Jesus taught, and I personally see a lot of good in this, and I trust Jesus, so I believe that his view of a single God is true, it makes more sense to me that a single source would be the Creator and Designer of the universe, and that religions that pray to multiple Gods are praising spiritual beings in a higher dimension that us, but are not praising the actual single source of all.

[mattreed]

Matt you did not answer the question posed.

Why do you not believe the story of Dionysus -- son of Greek god Zeus, which was also born Dec. 25th from a virgin mother?

What makes the story of Jesus more creditable than any other story of virgin births and magic tricks?

I feel that the others were great messengers of God as well, but none were kept as well track of as Jesus Christ. Because of the information available on Jesus, I choose to follow his teachings because of how comprehensively they were recorded. I also believe that of all the messengers sent by God, that Jesus Christ was on a higher dimensional plane than the other messengers, and was able to have more of an impact because of how close to God he actually was, the others were very close to God as well, but I believe Jesus was extremely close to God. And because he was so dear to God, that he would be the messenger and sacrifice to end all messengers and sacrifices.

[myleviathan]

I feel strongly in the positive character of Jesus Christ, and am willing to believe what he says is truth.... and he claimed to be a close son of God...

Just because of the positive character of Jesus, and that he claimed to be a close son of God? You say you have experienced paranormal activity, but I doubt it was a sit down chat with Jesus. None of us know anything about Jesus except what was taught by our preachers, sunday school teachers, parents, Christian friends, etc. So you're really not believing or trusting in Jesus as much as you are trusting other Christians in your life. Not that these are bad people, but they are people. They are handing you what was handed to them, and you will likely hand it to your children. So you believe what they say as truth, not Jesus. Jesus is entirely out of the picture! His kingdom could propagate itself on gossip and hearsay for the next 10,000 years. People will become martyrs, happily, based on that hearsay. The only reason I mention martyrdom is I often hear in the defense of Christianity that people would not have been willing to die for their faith so early on in the development of the Christian church had they not had first hand experience with miracles and the like. Don't believe this! People will believe anything that anyone says with enough authority. Even to the point of death. Just ask the Jesus living in Florida that has his followers tattoo 666 on their wrists to prove that evil has no power. No joke.

And you can argue that it's not just people who have propagated the faith, but also the Word of God through scripture. And we could go round and round arguing the authenticity of scripture. But the plain fact is that the Trinity is not here to argue for itself, and it never will be. Men wrote the book, not Jesus, and have handed it down through the generations to other men. Jesus is still out of the picture. And you trust those men and their interpretations. There's still no believing anything Jesus said, because he's not come out of the fourth dimension to say anything at all. Scripture is hearsay.

You could also argue that you have a relationship with Jesus, but even a relationship with Jesus is an imaginary one. A relationship consists of two way communication, maybe meeting from time to time, sharing a meal, watching a movie, you know. There is none of that in a relationship with Jesus. It's all one way communication in prayer, from you to him. And he's supposed to 'talk back' in scripture, or in a sermon, or through a circumstance that just can't be chance. He leaves it to others to talk for him. He's still not speaking for himself. It's still all hearsay.

I've come to the conclusion that everything that exists is a materialization of thought

This is backwards. Thought exists as materialization of elements. Your brain is made of some of the same elements that compose all matter in the universe. You can only think because of the electrochemical processes that occur in your brain. Matter isn't a result of thought, thought is a result of a specific composition of matter.

how incredible in design nature is

I definitely agree with you that nature is incredible. But it's a hell of a jump from feeling a sense of nature's wonder to maintaining a relationship with Jesus. Don't you think you may have jumped to conclusions without a creator who speaks for himself?

[Will]

You now understand that evolution isn't random, right? I hope I explained it well enough.

[mattreed]

I feel strongly in the positive character of Jesus Christ, and am willing to believe what he says is truth.... and he claimed to be a close son of God...

Just because of the positive character of Jesus, and that he claimed to be a close son of God? You say you have experienced paranormal activity, but I doubt it was a sit down chat with Jesus. None of us know anything about Jesus except what was taught by our preachers, sunday school teachers, parents, Christian friends, etc. So you're really not believing or trusting in Jesus as much as you are trusting other Christians in your life. Not that these are bad people, but they are people. They are handing you what was handed to them, and you will likely hand it to your children. So you believe what they say as truth, not Jesus. Jesus is entirely out of the picture! His kingdom could propagate itself on gossip and hearsay for the next 10,000 years. People will become martyrs, happily, based on that hearsay. The only reason I mention martyrdom is I often hear in the defense of Christianity that people would not have been willing to die for their faith so early on in the development of the Christian church had they not had first hand experience with miracles and the like. Don't believe this! People will believe anything that anyone says with enough authority. Even to the point of death. Just ask the Jesus living in Florida that has his followers tattoo 666 on their wrists to prove that evil has no power. No joke.

And you can argue that it's not just people who have propagated the faith, but also the Word of God through scripture. And we could go round and round arguing the authenticity of scripture. But the plain fact is that the Trinity is not here to argue for itself, and it never will be. Men wrote the book, not Jesus, and have handed it down through the generations to other men. Jesus is still out of the picture. And you trust those men and their interpretations. There's still no believing anything Jesus said, because he's not come out of the fourth dimension to say anything at all. Scripture is hearsay.

You could also argue that you have a relationship with Jesus, but even a relationship with Jesus is an imaginary one. A relationship consists of two way communication, maybe meeting from time to time, sharing a meal, watching a movie, you know. There is none of that in a relationship with Jesus. It's all one way communication in prayer, from you to him. And he's supposed to 'talk back' in scripture, or in a sermon, or through a circumstance that just can't be chance. He leaves it to others to talk for him. He's still not speaking for himself. It's still all hearsay.

I agree with you on what people have done with religion, I don't include myself in religion, I believe there is enough in the Bible for me to create my own beliefs on what is morally correct and I build my own spirituality with Jesus Christ as an example. I can tell when people are attempting to deceive me for their own gain, as many religions do. The most important part is for me to have a healthy connection with my spirit and to not discount its creation and its effects on myself and my body. I haven't been sick for 2 years, I feel this is because I am conscious of my spiritual balance as well as my physical balance. It's all about balance, and I feel to believe in nothing is unbalance. I have trouble typing these things because I see how my opinions are being viewed as an infringement on your free-will, but I will type anyway. I believe more in God than ever, and nothing here is nothing I haven't already heard from other Atheists, none of it disproves God just as much as how what I say doesn't prove God, it's totally a personal thing and I am sorry for attempting to impose on you.

I've come to the conclusion that everything that exists is a materialization of thought

This is backwards. Thought exists as materialization of elements. Your brain is made of some of the same elements that compose all matter in the universe. You can only think because of the electrochemical processes that occur in your brain. Matter isn't a result of thought, thought is a result of a specific composition of matter.[/quote]
In this dimension, yes. In the dimensions above, we are a materialization of their thoughts. I cannot prove this, but science has proven the existence of multiple dimensions, and because atoms are made of 99.9999% empty space, it seems plausible to me that everything is made up of 99.9999% empty space.

how incredible in design nature is

I definitely agree with you that nature is incredible. But it's a hell of a jump from feeling a sense of nature's wonder to maintaining a relationship with Jesus. Don't you think you may have jumped to conclusions without a creator who speaks for himself?[/quote]
I feel Jesus, the many parts of Jesus that have remained intact enough for me to get a personal truth from, because Jesus in the Bible agrees with many of my own convictions, that God has spoken to me through the parts of the Bible that have most of the truth intact, I am perfectly capable of discerning man's tamperings, and the truth I end up with is invaluable to me, because it made me feel better than ever, and that eventually, negativity will be impossible because of my convictions.

[mattreed]

You now understand that evolution isn't random, right? I hope I explained it well enough.

I have always believed this, this is why I think it's designed.

[Will]

I have always believed this, this is why I think it's designed.

What about it seems artificial?

[mattreed]

What about it seems artificial?

If you've always lived made out of plastic in a plastic world, you'd never know flesh or wooden structures. Nothing seems artificial about it at all, we have no way, in this form, to understand it's materialization, we can describe the materialization beautifully.

[Will]

If you've always lived made out of plastic in a plastic world, you'd never know flesh or wooden structures. Nothing seems artificial about it at all, we have no way, in this form, to understand it's materialization, we can describe the materialization beautifully.

I don't think I was clear. I apologize. What do you see in the natural world that can only be explained by the existence of a supernatural designer? I'd be glad to address these phenomena.

[mattreed]

Science is about studying the world around us so that we may gain a better understanding of it.....how did you not realize that initially?  Through gaining knowledge of our surrounding environment we are able to do good things such as finding cures for diseases (and these cures often have to be manufactured since they do not occur naturally).  Of course Darwin didn't create evolution...no thinking person believes that he did, he was just the first to explain what was happening in a way that actually made sense and could be tested and verified.  We all stand on the shoulders of others in order to further our knowledge and subsequently that of those around us...that's just being smart.  Why start out at square one when you were placed on square 90 by those who came before you?  Just because we utilize knowledge of the past does not mean there is necessarily anything magical providing that knowledge...it's all about baby steps to progress whether you are talking about knowledge or evolution.  Basically, in not so few words, you just said that you don't get how anything got here in the first place.  Which is an understandable view, yet not knowing does not mean there is a deity which place it there.  That line of thinking is called God of Gaps and is a rather well known logical fallacy.

As for believing every claim made by professionals...that's just as stupid as believing every claim made by religion.  Professionals write about how they reached their views so that we may read for ourselves (or even test on our own in some cases) to decide if that claim is valid or not.  It is often best to not accepts claims which cannot be verified by others; especially if that claim is important enough to affect world views.  We do ourselves a disservice when we do not care enough to investigate claims deeply enough that we not only know the meaning of the claim but can also explain how various people arrived at that conclusion.

Claiming that God provided you proof by turning green liquid in to red just for you is rather selfish when you think about all those who truly do need a miracle yet have their prayers go unanswered....all of us here are more fortunate than most people in the world since we have both the free time and means to simply access a computer and get on the internet.  If your god does exist and is going to be selective about what prayers it does answer...you'd think it would be more concerned about things such as curing babies with AIDS or cancer than turning some guy's liquid a different color.  Worthwhile miracles not being claimed to occur as  often as silly miracles is not necessarily proof that a god doesn't exist...but it certainly would say a lot about God's character if it does exist.

I agree with most of what you say. God answers prayers in ways He views just, not always in the way the person making the prayer requests, I felt God was giving me final conformation when I was still on the fringe of His existence and He knew I would share my convictions. The real abomination is that man-kind allows you and me to be on our computers while others starve, that a hierarchy of whom can live exists and is based in money and the desires of a few. God expresses His anger in our decisions, and we have natural disasters, its a shame that innocent people die, but if they were truly innocent, then their death took them from tyranny and brought them into something much better. If they died and are nothing, than what does it matter, so goes nature. I believe there is divine justice, that's what causes the storms in the first place, those whom place themselves above others and are selfish and heartless, their corruption is leading to the expression of anger. God is harsh, but I believe He is just. All I know is that it's completely out of my hands, and that all I want to do is spread positivity, because it makes me feel good as well as others, and perhaps allow those whom are Godless to consider that their belief is just as extreme as believing in God. Believing in absolute nothingness governed by God as opposed to absolute everything governed by God is just as extreme as the other, the middle ground is denial of your true belief because of the convictions necessary for either side. Science proves God exists, otherwise everything would be derived from man rather than described by man.

[jcm]

I feel that the others were great messengers of God as well, but none were kept as well track of as Jesus Christ. Because of the information available on Jesus, I choose to follow his teachings because of how comprehensively they were recorded. I also believe that of all the messengers sent by God, that Jesus Christ was on a higher dimensional plane than the other messengers, and was able to have more of an impact because of how close to God he actually was, the others were very close to God as well, but I believe Jesus was extremely close to God. And because he was so dear to God, that he would be the messenger and sacrifice to end all messengers and sacrifices.

Dude, now it sounds like you are just making crap up how ever you want. What you are saying would only make sense if the messages and stories of the afterlife were exactly the same. There are different stories about god based on geographic location. Don’t you think if “god” talked to these different people, then the stories would all be the same throughout the world?

If only one story is the right out of all of them, then why not the story of Allah and Mohammed? The Muslim religion is well documented and practiced by more people around the world than Christianity. Wouldn’t you want 72 virgins in the afterlife instead of some wings, a harp and no genitals?