Another "proof" for Jesus

[Asherah]

Okay, so I have friends that really really want me to return to Christianity. I'm a recent de-convert and they are scared for me.....since, now I'm going to Hell and all...

At any rate, here is another proof that they remind me of. And, I have to admit, that it is interesting. Not convincing, though.

Hebrew letters have a word picture (pictogram), a sound, and a number.

Here is a website for reference: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Pictograms/pictograms.html

(Unfortunately, that page only has the pictogram and the meaning for each. It does not have the letter symbol for each Hebrew letter. But, it should be enough to get the picture.)

So, with this in mind, let's look at the word "covenent" in Hebrew. This word is spelled bar-resh-yod-tav. Bar and resh is the Aramaic (and also used in the Hebrew Bible) word for son. When son is followed by "yod" it translates into "my son". The last Hebrew letter in the word is Tav. The pictogram for Tav is crossed sticks (the cross) and it's meaning is mark, sign, covenant. So, put it all together and you have My son, covenant. oooooooo----eeeerrrrryyyyyy-----I can hear god talking to me!! okay, okay, maybe this is a little cheesy, but why the "message"? Is this just people seeing what they want to see?

Let's look at YHVH. In Hebrew, this is spelled yod-hey-vav-hey. hand-behold-nail-behold.........IT'S JESUS AGAIN!!!

I feel kind of silly posting this, but just wanted to get others responses to such a proof. Thanks!

There are many many other examples of messages about Jesus in other words and names in the Bible. I can give other examples if needed.

Also, one thing that is very curious to me is the Tav pictogram of a cross that means covenant/mark/sign. That seems like a strange coincidence. And, I can actually see how someone might take this as a prophecy of sorts about god's covenant coming through the cross and that somehow predicting Jesus. Why is there a cross that means covenant at all? Was there some type of belief in that time of a cross being related to a covenant? Maybe in other surrounding cultures as well?

[Truthseeker]

Another version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUs8f-lphec

All very interesting.  Not near enough to cause to lay down my life and abide by Christianity's tenets.

[Crow]

Maybe I'm just stupid but I don't get it. Whats "proof" in any of that?

[Truthseeker]

Maybe I'm just stupid but I don't get it. Whats "proof" in any of that?

Crow, you make the point of the thread I believe.  Christians are the only ones, that I can tell anyway, that look to that as "proof".  It is the same unstable reasoning that is threaded throughout the entire belief.  It is a virus if you will. 

[fester30]

This all seems about as relevant as the "Bible code" that some people believe predicts the future.

[history_geek]

Damn it, Truthseeker, you stole my post! Grrrr. I shall have my revenge, one of these days...



But epic journeys of blood and violence aside, I agree.

You know, I think this is no different from a conspiracy "theorist" coming up and saying: "Hey, look, what does this remind you of? You know why? Because it is! And that proves me right! How do I know it is what I say it is? Because that's what I see in it every time!"- or something along those lines. Seeing is believing and believing is knowledge. *sigh* If only it was that easy...

Also, my favorite comment from the video you posted:

I am a christian and must say that this is inaccurate. Cainan means "fixed", Methuselah mean "man of the dart", Lamech means "wild man", Enoch means "dedicated". I don't know what Chuck Missler teaches, but I would be like the Bereans and check the scriptures to see if these things are so.

So now the "sentence" says:
Man Appointed Mortal Fixed The blessed god, Shall come down Dedicated Man of the dart, Wild man Comfort (/rest)

Yup, it's proof that the ancient desert folk did actually have a sense humor!

[Too Few Lions]

I'm no expert on ancient Hebrew, but the meanings given to the proto-Hebrew pictograms on that Christian website may be questionable. Hebrew derived from Canaanite, which in turn derived from Phoenician (I think). You can see the similarities between the Hebrew pictograms on the above link and Phoenician here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

Now, YHWH in Phoenician (and also presumably proto-Hebrew) translates as 'hand-window-hook-window' - no obvious link to Jesus

Covenant is BRYT (I think) that translates as 'house-head-hook-mark', again I can no link to Jesus. Yes the last letter Tau is a cross, but it's a diagonal cross (x), a pretty basic written mark that one would expect in any basic alphabet, we even still have one in the Latin alphabet!

this website also seems to suggest the interpretations given for the proto-Hebrew pictograms on the Christian link is questionable, the meanings here are very similar to those on wikipedia for the Phoenician pictograms;

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Hebrew_Alphabet_Meaning.html

[Twentythree]

Also, one thing that is very curious to me is the Tav pictogram of a cross that means covenant/mark/sign. That seems like a strange coincidence. And, I can actually see how someone might take this as a prophecy of sorts about god's covenant coming through the cross and that somehow predicting Jesus. Why is there a cross that means covenant at all? Was there some type of belief in that time of a cross being related to a covenant? Maybe in other surrounding cultures as well?

Symbolism often takes the shape desired and is not a factual representation of how things really are. For example, it is very likely that if Jesus was tortured and killed in Jerusalem in the 1st century that he was impaled on a straight post. If this post had any cruciform it probably looked more like a "T" or had a general scaffolding appearance. The emergence of the the cruciform symbolism as it is used today came about because artists needed to isolate the Christ figure and still have a place for the charge as is indicated in Matthew 27:37, this gradually elongated the post above the cross bar and established the modern symbol we know of today.

http://i17.tinypic.com/5y006dt.jpg
http://www.wga.hu/art/d/david/1/christ_n.jpg
http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/var/cbcew/storage/images/cbcew2/cbcew-media-library/cbcew-images/podcasting-images/art-and-culture/the-crucifixion/121778-12-eng-GB/The-Crucifixion.jpg
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/ep/web-large/DT8853.jpg



http://www.examiner.com/signs-of-the-times-in-phoenix/did-jesus-die-on-a-cross

http://christianity.about.com/od/biblefactsandlists/tp/crucifixionforms.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/7849852/Jesus-did-not-die-on-cross-says-scholar.html


In light of these few images and articles is it not fairly easy to see how if in fact Jesus was executed on a post. That this post would gradually come to resemble the Hebrew symbol for covenant and how quickly and easily this contrived relationship could be used to solidify the connection between the old testament and Jesus. Often when viewed through the lens of real history symbolism loses its mystic meaning.



http://i17.tinypic.com/5y006dt.jpg

[Truthseeker]

Symbolism often takes the shape desired and is not a factual representation of how things really are. For example, it is very likely that if Jesus was tortured and killed in Jerusalem in the 1st century that he was impaled on a straight post. If this post had any cruciform it probably looked more like a "T" or had a general scaffolding appearance. The emergence of the the cruciform symbolism as it is used today came about because artists needed to isolate the Christ figure and still have a place for the charge as is indicated in Matthew 27:37, this gradually elongated the post above the cross bar and established the modern symbol we know of today.

http://i17.tinypic.com/5y006dt.jpg
http://www.wga.hu/art/d/david/1/christ_n.jpg
http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/var/cbcew/storage/images/cbcew2/cbcew-media-library/cbcew-images/podcasting-images/art-and-culture/the-crucifixion/121778-12-eng-GB/The-Crucifixion.jpg
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/ep/web-large/DT8853.jpg



http://www.examiner.com/signs-of-the-times-in-phoenix/did-jesus-die-on-a-cross

http://christianity.about.com/od/biblefactsandlists/tp/crucifixionforms.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/7849852/Jesus-did-not-die-on-cross-says-scholar.html


In light of these few images and articles is it not fairly easy to see how if in fact Jesus was executed on a post. That this post would gradually come to resemble the Hebrew symbol for covenant and how quickly and easily this contrived relationship could be used to solidify the connection between the old testament and Jesus. Often when viewed through the lens of real history symbolism loses its mystic meaning.



http://i17.tinypic.com/5y006dt.jpg

Good god, Twentythree.  Read much?

[OldGit]

Using the Runes (FuÞark), arse is 'ash', 'ride', 'sun', 'horse'.  I'm sure you could prove quite a few propositions from that.  E.g.  Don't smoke when riding a horse or the ash will burn your buttocks as fiercely as the sun.

[Stevil]

Chinese people consider the number 4 to be a very unlucky number.
In Chinese most characters consist of just one syllable so there are many double ups. They overcome this limitation via use of tones. A spoken word starting off with a low tone and ending on a high has a different meaning to the same word starting off with a high tone and ending on a low.

The number 4 in Mandarin sounds like sì but the word sǐ means die.
Given such auspicious similarities, you will find that Chinese people will avoid buying a house with the number 4 in the address or a car with the number 4 in the license plate. Owning such a house or a car will surely lead to doom, it has been foretold.

The number 8 however in Mandarin sounds like bā but the word fā which sounds similar means wealth or prosperity.
Given such auspicious similarities, you will often find car license plates of 888888 with a very happy Chinese person behind the wheel.

In my opinion symbolism and word association should be treated as harmless fun, much like astrology but I wouldn't take it too seriously.
We can easily find hidden patterns and meanings in things and can twist them towards what we want to find.

We had a Muslim who was convincing us that the qu'ran predicted that our universe is expanding. Only, the people that translated it, they got it wrong. Once scientists worked out that the universe was actually expanding, then people went back to the qu'ran and saw the translation mistake, which they corrected. Apparently the word had a few meanings and the previous translators picked the wrong one. He thought it was amazing and uncanny how the qu'ran revealed the secrets of the universe before our scientists could work them out.