Are human beings meant for monogamy or is it society trying to reform us?

[philosoraptor]

I know that you can fill out civil.union or hospital papers to see your spouse if anything were to happen.
I've gone through the goverment red tape several times in my life

I don't even know where to start with this, but no.  No no no.

You can't get a civil union with someone if they're already in a coma.  And if that person's family wanted to keep their partner out and away, they absolutely could.  Families cause problems even when people are married-remember Terry Schiavo?  If her parents could create that much trouble for the husband, imagine what a family could do if the couple in question was committed, but didn't have a civil union?  That aside, a civil union is just another version of "separate but equal" and it's just as bigoted and offensive when you get down to it.  So what happens if you live and get married in a state that recognizes gay marriage, but your spouse is in a horrible accident in a state that doesn't recognize it?  It means that you don't have those rights.  It means that your spouse could die before you could jump through whatever red tape it is you're alluding to that would allow you to see them, and how awful would that be?  It means that you could know your partner wants to be cremated and scattered over the ocean, but his or her family could still bury them wherever they want to, regardless of their wishes.  Unless you have POA for that person or they have a will/living will, their family can do whatever they want in a circumstance where that other person is not capable of deciding for themselves, even if that goes against their wishes.

So again, no.  Much more than a piece of paper, whether you are emotionally bonded to that person or not.  You can believe otherwise if you want, but that doesn't change the way it actually is and to say otherwise is to do a disservice to all the same sex couples that have fought to have their relationships recognized.  I get it-you're against marriage.  But you're also not married, so to keep throwing around these disparaging comments about marriage and the people who get married when you have no actual experience to back it up is kind of offensive.  This being on the heels of the racially insensitive infestation remarks (which you've conveniently ignored), I don't think I really want to engage with you any further.

This thread wasn't supposed to be about marriage vs civil unions and civil rights, etc.. and I don't want to derail it and further, so that's pretty much what I have to say, unless someone wants to bump/start a thread just about that specific topic.  My earlier post wasn't directed at Ali or DeterminedJuliet, more so a general statement, so if you guys thought I was commenting at you, I apologize for not being more clear.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I do agree that there are still some very real legal and social benefits to marriages.

And I do think that you can stay actively in-love with one person your whole life (with peaks and valleys of intensity, of course).
My husband still gives me butterflies. Not every day, but definitely a couple of times a week. 

[pytheas]

Much more than a piece of paper, whether you are emotionally bonded to that person or not.  You can believe otherwise if you want, but that doesn't change the way it actually is and to say otherwise is to do a disservice to all the same sex couples that have fought to have their relationships recognized.  I get it-you're against marriage.  But you're also not married, so to keep throwing around these disparaging comments about marriage and the people who get married when you have no actual experience to back it up is kind of offensive.  

when you have no actual experience ?

what is the actual experience of being married?
Is it not in essence a commited monogamy with legal binding contract?
Is marriage not already equivalent to a civil union certificate as far as legal, property, tax and inheritance goes?
so specifically not to do with legal monetary issues,

THE NEED TO DECLARE AND BROADCAST YOUR PAIR-BONDING
IN A PSYCHOSEXUAL CONTEXT TO THE SURROUNDING SOCIETY
IS DIVISIVE AND BIGOT-FORMING

and purely of patriarchical inadequacy anguish origin

I have performed several rituals of marriage and divorce in which I was god, priest, groom and church.
I am commited and focused to my partner.
Nothing Lasts For Ever, but things ever emegre as they vanish

in british tax forms it has
"married, in civil union, or living AS married with partner" = you tick the box and get the tax

Actions are described as monogamy
Marriage describes something rather ugly which we rename, redefine, and incorporate into our romance unknowingly.

[Asmodean]

[Ali]

Much more than a piece of paper, whether you are emotionally bonded to that person or not.  You can believe otherwise if you want, but that doesn't change the way it actually is and to say otherwise is to do a disservice to all the same sex couples that have fought to have their relationships recognized.  I get it-you're against marriage.  But you're also not married, so to keep throwing around these disparaging comments about marriage and the people who get married when you have no actual experience to back it up is kind of offensive.  

when you have no actual experience ?

what is the actual experience of being married?
Is it not in essence a commited monogamy with legal binding contract?
Is marriage not already equivalent to a civil union certificate as far as legal, property, tax and inheritance goes?
so specifically not to do with legal monetary issues,

THE NEED TO DECLARE AND BROADCAST YOUR PAIR-BONDING
IN A PSYCHOSEXUAL CONTEXT TO THE SURROUNDING SOCIETY
IS DIVISIVE AND BIGOT-FORMING

and purely of patriarchical inadequacy anguish origin

I have performed several rituals of marriage and divorce in which I was god, priest, groom and church.
I am commited and focused to my partner.
Nothing Lasts For Ever, but things ever emegre as they vanish

in british tax forms it has
"married, in civil union, or living AS married with partner" = you tick the box and get the tax

Actions are described as monogamy
Marriage describes something rather ugly which we rename, redefine, and incorporate into our romance unknowingly.

I would say that marriage is "DIVISIVE AND BIGOT FORMING" only insofar as people want to keep it to themselves and not allow others to do it.  Personally, I am perfectly happy to let any consenting adults form any relationships and/or marriages they want.

As for the rest of it, I really don't care whether other adults get married or not.  If it's not for you, don't get married, what do I care?  I admit that I found the ritual of marriage satisfying personally, but it doesn't matter to me if anyone else chooses it, as long as all adults have equal opportunity under the law to choose it.  What I don't get it is why some people are so anti-marriage.  I don't condemn the form your relationship takes, I don't understand why you condemn mine.

[Sweetdeath]

Great post, Phyteas!! 

You even got Asmo's Seal of approval. XDD

People take marriage so seriously without even bothering to research its origins. They think "oh, getting married makes everything better" Why? I think just sticking by the one you love is good enough.
And please do not get me started on idiots who want to waste THOUSANDS on a giant wedding. So utterly pointless.

[Tank]

As I will have been married to my wife for 32 years at the end of March I have to say I couldn't give two hoots what other people think about marriage. I like the situation, so does my wife and if other's don't that's their choice. If you don't like the idea of marriage that's fine but please cut out the disparaging remarks about other people's choices; they're none of your business.

[Sweetdeath]

I'm not intending to bash marriage, but a lot of people put pressure on you. Especially women in Asian culture. You are a leper if you aren't married before 30.
I dont care what people do honestly, but people gave broken up long term relationships because one person doesn't want to be married.
I think people need to stop acting lke its a special thing that completes a person. And married people tend to look down on "aw poor you" not married couples. I really fucking dislike the judging. Like I am not in a perfect, loving relationship unless  I have a scrap of paper.

All I want is for society to stop acting like everyone needs marriage, or else your love "doesnt matter."

[Tank]

I'm not intending to bash marriage, but a lot of people put pressure on you. Especially women in Asian culture. You are a leper if you aren't married before 30.
I dont care what people do honestly, but people gave broken up long term relationships because one person doesn't want to be married.
I think people need to stop acting lke its a special thing that completes a person. And married people tend to look down on "aw poor you" not married couples. I really fucking dislike the judging. Like I am not in a perfect, loving relationship unless  I have a scrap of paper.

All I want is for society to stop acting like everyone needs marriage, or else your love "doesnt matter."

I agree with most of this. But marriage isn't just a scrap of paper, it's a state of mind. The paper is just an overt indication that at the moment carries some legal weight.

My youngest daughter got married and the whole day was marvellous. A public affirmation of her commitment to her partner in her style. My eldest daughter has had a child with her partner and didn't get married. It's horses for courses.

[MariaEvri]

And please do not get me started on idiots who want to waste THOUSANDS on a giant wedding. So utterly pointless.

dont come to greece
or cyprus

[Sweetdeath]

And please do not get me started on idiots who want to waste THOUSANDS on a giant wedding. So utterly pointless.

dont come to greece
or cyprus

That big greek wedding stuff is true??

[Tank]

And please do not get me started on idiots who want to waste THOUSANDS on a giant wedding. So utterly pointless.

dont come to greece
or cyprus

That big greek wedding stuff is true??

Bloody right it is! We happened to be in a hotel on Cyprus when there was a wedding there. It was amazing!

[DeterminedJuliet]

I'm not intending to bash marriage, but a lot of people put pressure on you. Especially women in Asian culture. You are a leper if you aren't married before 30.
I dont care what people do honestly, but people gave broken up long term relationships because one person doesn't want to be married.
I think people need to stop acting lke its a special thing that completes a person. And married people tend to look down on "aw poor you" not married couples. I really fucking dislike the judging. Like I am not in a perfect, loving relationship unless  I have a scrap of paper.

All I want is for society to stop acting like everyone needs marriage, or else your love "doesnt matter."

I doubt this is a problem caused married people specifically, just general narrow-mindedness.
I'm married and I have never asked my single friends "So, when are you going to tie the knot?" Because A) it's none of my business and B) I don't want to imply that they have to do everything that I do.

I also never ask people "when" they are having kids, "when" they're going to move in with someone, etc. marriage still means something to a lot of people and I don't think that's an inherently horrible thing (we are social creatures who like having traditions). It's just a matter of how much you re-enforce the privilege behind it. Saying that I'm a bigot because I've chosen to get married would be a bit much, I think.

[Ali]

I'm not intending to bash marriage, but a lot of people put pressure on you. Especially women in Asian culture. You are a leper if you aren't married before 30.
I dont care what people do honestly, but people gave broken up long term relationships because one person doesn't want to be married.
I think people need to stop acting lke its a special thing that completes a person. And married people tend to look down on "aw poor you" not married couples. I really fucking dislike the judging. Like I am not in a perfect, loving relationship unless  I have a scrap of paper.

All I want is for society to stop acting like everyone needs marriage, or else your love "doesnt matter."

I doubt this is a problem caused married people specifically, just general narrow-mindedness.
I'm married and I have never asked my single friends "So, when are you going to tie the knot?" Because A) it's none of my business and B) I don't want to imply that they have to do everything that I do.

I also never ask people "when" they are having kids, "when" they're going to move in with someone, etc. marriage still means something to a lot of people and I don't think that's an inherently horrible thing (we are social creatures who like having traditions). It's just a matter of how much you re-enforce the privilege behind it. Saying that I'm a bigot because I've chosen to get married would be a bit much, I think.

Totally agree.

I also think it's funny that people bitch about "feeling judged" for not getting married while turning around and talking about how stupid and sexist and what not marriage is.  Pot, have you met kettle?

[DeterminedJuliet]

I'm not intending to bash marriage, but a lot of people put pressure on you. Especially women in Asian culture. You are a leper if you aren't married before 30.
I dont care what people do honestly, but people gave broken up long term relationships because one person doesn't want to be married.
I think people need to stop acting lke its a special thing that completes a person. And married people tend to look down on "aw poor you" not married couples. I really fucking dislike the judging. Like I am not in a perfect, loving relationship unless  I have a scrap of paper.

All I want is for society to stop acting like everyone needs marriage, or else your love "doesnt matter."

I doubt this is a problem caused married people specifically, just general narrow-mindedness.
I'm married and I have never asked my single friends "So, when are you going to tie the knot?" Because A) it's none of my business and B) I don't want to imply that they have to do everything that I do.

I also never ask people "when" they are having kids, "when" they're going to move in with someone, etc. marriage still means something to a lot of people and I don't think that's an inherently horrible thing (we are social creatures who like having traditions). It's just a matter of how much you re-enforce the privilege behind it. Saying that I'm a bigot because I've chosen to get married would be a bit much, I think.

Totally agree.

I also think it's funny that people bitch about "feeling judged" for not getting married while turning around and talking about how stupid and sexist and what not marriage is.  Pot, have you met kettle?

I've had both kinds of experiences: I've had non-married people talk me into the dirt for submitting to an evil, archaic system. And I've had other married people smugly treat me like "one of them". Both situations made me feel very uncomfortable and neither evaluation felt like "me". 

But it's kind of like being a mother; if you stay home with your child, you're a subjugated domestic with no identity or goals. If you decide to work, you're a selfish, ambitious, neglectful creature who lets other people raise her kids and will live to regret it. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
It's taken me a while, but there's something really useful in being able to say "fuck it" when people try to impose some kind of external value on your very personal life-choices.

As humans, I think one of the best things we can do is let other people identify themselves how they want to and just let everything else go.