God is Love

[Gawen]

Doth God hath a lithp?

I....don't think God doeth....but.....King Jameth muth have had.

Jesus may have, he had a scary father.
I think that can be an indicative thingy.

If Jesus had a scary father, I reckon he would st..st..stutter...*winkin with a grin*

And pee in his loin cloth a lot...

[Tristan Jay]

Do you doubt a parent's love because they punish their child?  You seem to know all the information, yet choose to disregard it.  If you know the consequences, then what complaint have you?

Torture...no.  Death...yes.

There's a couple things here that bug me, that always have.  I wish God would explain it better, yet he does not, Himself and through his follower.

One thing is mentioned in Stevil's post, If you love something, set it free.  Letting us have Free Will on Earth, with the threat of violence if we don't do what He wants is not freedom.  I've heard this one said many times, never seen anything that answers this reasonably.

He also wants a love that is unhealthy; He wants us to be clingy to Him, without assurance that He's going to be consistent in helping us when we're in trouble.  Because He is inconsistent, He is untrustworthy and we're really better off relying on ourselves.  If He were going to encourage a more healthy love between Himself and Humans, I think He should encourage us to rely on ourselves; teach us the things we need to know and give us self reliance.

Finally, I know that punishment is brought in as part of the "Love" picture.  Well, punishment best as instructive and corrective, and I don't think any of us here would have a problem if God's punishments seemed more carefully measured and reasonable, and He wasn't punishing over a fundamental disagreement about us wanting to have separation from Him.  The idea of Hell is that it is punishment that cannot be learned from.  It's punitive all the way, and that's not love.  That just like the U.S. punitive system at it's worst, when it serves no purpose for society and the criminals other than to punish, for the sense of "satisfaction" that punishment is being dealt out, but doesn't fix the problem.

So God (and a fair chunk of his followers) have so bad a need to have satisfaction of justice, I guess?  The thing is, there are some of us who know that in certain circumstances, there is no justice, and we just have to get over ourselves, for our own health so we can get on with getting along.  Not all of us humans necessarily want punishment for the sake of punishment, for the sake of tormenting a person for doing wrong by us.

So, we humans can get over the need to punish.  Yet God can't?  Something we can do that He can't or won't?  Who is really the lesser being in this circumstance, then?  We can show compassion, where God cannot.  Seems like He can't love better than us, that we are capable of giving a person more individual freedom than He can on an individual basis.

I've already said how I think He should experience love from me.  I honestly wonder if, during the course of receiving the kind of love I've decided I would like to show, could He reasonably complain in the course of me giving Him a perfect duplication of my life.  I'll bet there's someone out there with an even better life to test Him with His notions of what love is.  What if we threw Him into Hell, and told Him we were doing it to love him?  I think I could see Him complaining about fairness and justice and love, when the shoe is on the other foot.  And I'll bet many humans would be willing to be more compassionate toward him in the end than what He shows us; that feels very believable.  We might not be willing to let Him suffer eternally for a finite number of sins against us (the suffering a single person puts up with here in His creation), which suggests we are more capable of compassion than He is.

[Sandra Craft]

We might not be willing to let Him suffer eternally for a finite number of sins against us (the suffering a single person puts up with here in His creation), which suggests we are more capable of compassion than He is.

Suggests to me that not only was god created by human beings, but created to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

[AnimatedDirt]

What is meant by the following:
1. he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb (Revelation 14:10)
2. and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:50)
3. And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever (Revelation 14:11)

The answer is the same as:

2 Peter 2:4-7
Jude 1:5-7

My parents always kept me away from fire and sulfur, they never tortured me and never threw me into a fiery furnace. Does this mean they didn't love me?

I'm sure they loved you.  The point being that the fictional punishment is known...clearly...by *you.  Yet you're able to intelligently choose your fictional fate...and it would seem, gladly. (according to the piece of fiction, of course.)

[Sandra Craft]

My parents always kept me away from fire and sulfur, they never tortured me and never threw me into a fiery furnace. Does this mean they didn't love me?

I'm sure they loved you.  The point being that the fictional punishment is known...clearly...by *you.  Yet you're able to intelligently choose your fictional fate...and it would seem, gladly. (according to the piece of fiction, of course.)

So you've got a parent who says to their kid "if you stay out past 10 p.m. I'm going to beat you senseless".  The kid stays out past 10 p.m., maybe for a good reason and maybe not, and the parent beats the kid senseless.  You're saying this is OK behavior on the parent's part, and the kid should have no complaint with it?

[AnimatedDirt]

So you've got a parent who says to their kid "if you stay out past 10 p.m. I'm going to beat you senseless".  The kid stays out past 10 p.m., maybe for a good reason and maybe not, and the parent beats the kid senseless.  You're saying this is OK behavior on the parent's part, and the kid should have no complaint with it?

Clearly you've interpreted the consequence as a beating when it is in fact (according to the piece of fiction) simply death.  That death comes apparently by fire.  Whether you or I agree to this method is not even up for debate...if this god is really God.  Again, one would need to understand, or at least have the information through which to understand, the many points that relate to this death as a result of simply eating a fruit.  If it were that simple, I'd be a militant (one who actively campaigns against God as opposed to one that simply doesn't believe in god(s)) Atheist.

[Stevil]

My parents always kept me away from fire and sulfur, they never tortured me and never threw me into a fiery furnace. Does this mean they didn't love me?

I'm sure they loved you.  The point being that the fictional punishment is known...clearly...by *you.  Yet you're able to intelligently choose your fictional fate...and it would seem, gladly. (according to the piece of fiction, of course.)

So you've got a parent who says to their kid "if you stay out past 10 p.m. I'm going to beat you senseless".  The kid stays out past 10 p.m., maybe for a good reason and maybe not, and the parent beats the kid senseless.  You're saying this is OK behavior on the parent's part, and the kid should have no complaint with it?

...and of course, the child chose its fate. It was the child's fate, it wasn't the parent whom chose to beat the poor kid. The Christian god is one sick Mo Fo.
How Christians can believe in it and love the idea of it is beyond me, they seem like a bunch of desperate whipped puppies.

[Stevil]

The point being that the fictional punishment is known...clearly...by *you.  Yet you're able to intelligently choose your fictional fate...and it would seem, gladly. (according to the piece of fiction, of course.)

But clearly you keep getting confused. I am not a fictional character and I do not exist in this fictional hell hole that is described in the fictional bible. It would be like you telling me that I know that if I tap my shoes together then I (and Toto) will leave Oz and will be magically whisked off back to my home in Kansas.

[AnimatedDirt]

But clearly you keep getting confused. I am not a fictional character and I do not exist in this fictional hell hole that is described in the fictional bible. It would be like you telling me that I know that if I tap my shoes together then I (and Toto) will leave Oz and will be magically whisked off back to my home in Kansas.

I'm not certain YOU understand this yourself since I am simply replying to a thread you've started on this fairytale.  The fact is we are not discussing the relevance of clicking one's shoes together are we?  Why do you keep bringing up these topics if they are fiction?  I'm not the one confused here.

[Stevil]

But clearly you keep getting confused. I am not a fictional character and I do not exist in this fictional hell hole that is described in the fictional bible. It would be like you telling me that I know that if I tap my shoes together then I (and Toto) will leave Oz and will be magically whisked off back to my home in Kansas.

I'm not certain YOU understand this yourself since I am simply replying to a thread you've started on this fairytale.  The fact is we are not discussing the relevance of clicking one's shoes together are we?  Why do you keep bringing up these topics if they are fiction?  I'm not the one confused here.

I am trying to understand Christians, they say some pretty bewildering stuff.
I am not of the position that they are all crazy, I am trying to respect them (believe it or not). I am just stunned how a person can believe this stuff given what is written in their scriptures. It makes no sense to me.

For example, You (AD) seem like an intelligent and reasonable man, but your beliefs just seem wacky, with no evidence, just faith, and you are happy to do the mental gymnastics required to twist your scripture in such a way that it somehow makes sense to you.
I don't know how this is possible. I don't think you are mentally deranged or that you lack the ability to apply reason, logic and deep thought into something, but somehow you have made a leap of faith towards the Christian faith. I can't understand it, and I am somewhat interested in human psychology.

[AnimatedDirt]

I am trying to understand Christians, they say some pretty bewildering stuff.

Honestly, sometimes I can see you really wanting to understand, but for the most part what I see in "understanding" is just the fun *you get by hurling snide remarks and sarcasm at the things we discuss.  I understand your 'anger' at this fictional god...and as I've mentioned to another, it is not without merit, however with the caveat that it is understood THROUGH how you view/perceive/interpret the piece of fiction.  I'm not so stupid not to see why you are Atheist.  I find many valid 'complaints', if you will, from Atheism.  These things are very difficult to understand if there even is a manner in which TO understand it.

I am not of the position that they are all crazy, I am trying to respect them (believe it or not). I am just stunned how a person can believe this stuff given what is written in their scriptures. It makes no sense to me.

While I don't doubt this is your intention as you state here, it is not really conveyed as such in your actions (manner of speaking to or at Christians and their beliefs) here that I've seen.  I've tried to bend to your liking in speaking of the bible as 'the piece of fiction' so that you'll discuss it as such.  But that even doesn't work so well with you and certainly not with others that would rather not speak of it as such.

For example, You (AD) seem like an intelligent and reasonable man, but your beliefs just seem wacky, with no evidence, just faith,

If you really knew anything about the piece of fiction, you'd know that this is par for the course.  Most Atheists have a fine way of quoting scripture...errr...from that piece of fiction to prove their point.  Most anything can be 'proven' from that piece of fiction.  It's all in there.  Nothing hidden about the corruption of man...even God's men.

and you are happy to do the mental gymnastics required to twist your scripture in such a way that it somehow makes sense to you.

It already makes sense to me.  I don't need to do any mental gymnastics.  The reason I'm here (partially) is to try and convey the reasoning, be it mental gymnastics or just a differing perspective.

e.g. In this post, it seems superfes is trying to say that even God says he creates darkness and evil.  Of course that is what it says, but is that what it means? (He's not answered to this yet so I'm guessing)

I don't know how this is possible. I don't think you are mentally deranged or that you lack the ability to apply reason, logic and deep thought into something, but somehow you have made a leap of faith towards the Christian faith. I can't understand it, and I am somewhat interested in human psychology.

Again, you're just not seeing it.  It is all about the belief being a leap of faith.  It's not supposed to be based on empirical evidence.  If it were, it wouldn't require faith.  It's those small points that the typical Atheist says he/she doesn't get but misses completely that THAT is it.  This fictional God wants only those that want him.  There is enough evidence TO believe and there's enough evidence to disbelieve.  Proof?  Christians exist and Atheist's exist.  There is no reason for this God to come and prove his existence to a person not wanting anything from their perception of this God.  Is there?

[DeterminedJuliet]

Do you doubt a parent's love because they punish their child?  

I would doubt a parent's love if they tortured their child, and I would doubt their sanity if they tortured their child with fire.  I would also doubt both the love and the sanity of a parent who killed their child (no matter how "humanely") for disagreeing with them. 

Really, though. Discipline is one thing, eternal hell-fire if they disobey is another.

[AnimatedDirt]

Really, though. Discipline is one thing, eternal hell-fire if they disobey is another.

Do not all succumb to death at some point?  Hell is the place of death, not torture.

[Stevil]

I am trying to understand Christians, they say some pretty bewildering stuff.

Honestly, sometimes I can see you really wanting to understand, but for the most part what I see in "understanding" is just the fun *you get by hurling snide remarks and sarcasm at the things we discuss.

I hope that you can see I am presenting my disbelief in this stuff. I am not directing snide or sarcastic remarks towards you.
I am open to the possibility that if the god exists it is not perfect, it is not good, that it might take pleasure out of tormenting people. You aren't open to this idea. You might take my remarks against the classic Christian view of the bible as an attack on you, but it is not an attack on you. I am sure outside of this forum, not discussing religion, we could get on very well and respect each other very much. I don't know if this is actually what would happen , but the potential is there.
I offer ideas, and make comments with regards to Christianity because I am trying to understand it. How can an atheist not see the horribleness in the Christian stories, the torture dished out by the Christian god? Why can't a Christian see this horribleness? There doesn't seem to be any reasonable explanation. I certainly do not understand.

Again, you're just not seeing it.  It is all about the belief being a leap of faith.  It's not supposed to be based on empirical evidence.  If it were, it wouldn't require faith.

Why is faith important? I don't understand this. With the requirement of faith a person has equal reason to leap towards any religion that humans have dreamed up. For the most part they conflict each other and sometimes the followers are compelled to kill each other. Many religious wars have been had and many are still happening, many people are dying, many people are oppressed in the name of such and such a god.
Atheism is the only rational and consistent choice available. If you deny one religion with regards to leap of faith, you must deny them all based on this same premise.
The Christian belief that non believers go to hell is a croc. It has no rational to it, it is merely a coercive argument to get people to comply.

[AnimatedDirt]

I hope that you can see I am presenting my disbelief in this stuff. I am not directing snide or sarcastic remarks towards you.

Then to who?  I'm the one you're speaking to.

I am open to the possibility that if the god exists it is not perfect, it is not good, that it might take pleasure out of tormenting people. You aren't open to this idea.

The question then is; are you also open to the possibility this interpretation of the reading of these things is wrong?  Apparently not that open...or so the snide and sarcasm suggests.

You might take my remarks against the classic Christian view of the bible as an attack on you, but it is not an attack on you.

Not really.  Again, this kind of reaction is par for the course...has been for the fictional thousands of years. 

I am sure outside of this forum, not discussing religion, we could get on very well and respect each other very much. I don't know if this is actually what would happen , but the potential is there.

I'm sure of it.  I have a few Atheist friends.  We get along fine.  I don't know for sure if they feel I'm some kind of deluded person and/or have pity on me for being so easily deluded, but it seems to me we have a great relationship.  There's at least one friend that is an Atheist that I trust more than most of my Christian friends!  In fact, I've told him he's a better Christian than I am.

I offer ideas, and make comments with regards to Christianity because I am trying to understand it. How can an atheist not see the horribleness in the Christian stories, the torture dished out by the Christian god? Why can't a Christian see this horribleness? There doesn't seem to be any reasonable explanation. I certainly do not understand.

Any Christian that denys the horribleness of the deaths of people, children...is more deluded than you may think.

Why is faith important? I don't understand this. With the requirement of faith a person has equal reason to leap towards any religion that humans have dreamed up. For the most part they conflict each other and sometimes the followers are compelled to kill each other. Many religious wars have been had and many are still happening, many people are dying, many people are oppressed in the name of such and such a god.

Faith is what drives us.  You may disagree, but your 'faith' drives you too.  Atheism is not a faith-based disbelief, but stems from a self-faith that you, yourself, understand everything better and thus you live (and will die) within this faith *you have in yourself.  Below you state that Atheism is the only rational and consistent choice.  This is faith in your own thinking.

Atheism is the only rational and consistent choice available. If you deny one religion with regards to leap of faith, you must deny them all based on this same premise.

I agree, Atheism is rational.  There is nothing rational about a God of love that cares for *you so much he's willing to wait, if it were possible, for *you to see this faith.  At what cost?  Well, you might find his love for *you irrational...who claimed love rational?

The Christian belief that non believers go to hell is a croc. It has no rational to it, it is merely a coercive argument to get people to comply.

Is it a croc that people die?