Re: What About Dignity?

[MadBomr101]

The link. Wht doesn't it work?!  Asmo needs that site up and running for his amusement tonight.

How undignified of you! To SWINDLE The Asmo like that!  You know what The LORD thy God said about swindlers, right?  RIGHT?! 

Seriously though, wouldn't surprise me if something like that was actually posted on some "legitimate" site, with no crackpot in its name 

Weird, how no matter what crazy idea you propose, as long as it involves religion, there is (almost) always a... Well, a crackpot, who will swallow it whole. (Then twist it and probably open a church dedicated to it) Actually, it's not as much weird, due to the nature of religion, as it is distasteful.

There is just no idea too crazy that some religion can't apply it and whose followers won't embrace it as the word of god.  Need proof?  We live in a world with Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness AND Scientology...to name just a few.   

[Crow]

There is just no idea too crazy that some religion can't apply it and whose followers won't embrace it as the word of god.  Need proof?  We live in a world with Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness AND Scientology...to name just a few.   

I always find this weird when people mention the above religions and leave out Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

[MadBomr101]

Damn, I also thought the link was legit

No, I'm sorry.  The link is a lie...y'know, like religion.   

[MadBomr101]

There is just no idea too crazy that some religion can't apply it and whose followers won't embrace it as the word of god.  Need proof?  We live in a world with Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness AND Scientology...to name just a few.   

I always find this weird when people mention the above religions and leave out Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Well, in fact, they're ALL crackpot.  I just needed a few at random to illustrate my point.  However, feel free to add ANY other religion to that list.

[Sandra Craft]

Damn, I also thought the link was legit

The "seriously/no-seriously" kinda tipped me off but I clicked it too -- just in case.

[MadBomr101]

The "seriously/no-seriously" kinda tipped me off but I clicked it too -- just in case.

And another one has fallen victim to my nefarious trap.  (*insert diabolical laughter here*) 

[Egor]

Without overreacting, I will reiterate what my Grandfather was: Dignified.  I miss him, and hope he is at peace.  He is no longer with us.  I mentioned him as an aspect of my personal life, humanity, vulnerablility.  Beyond that, it is not a point to be proved here in a dignified discourse, please.  Thank you.  Just wanting to draw a line, let's move on.

Hey, you're the one who brought him up in the first place. I just asked if he was an atheist.

At which has more dignity, a person who wants to be formed into the perfection of Christ or a person who thinks they're perfect just as they are?

Anyone who thinks they're perfect just the way they are is unjustifiably narcissistic.

Can you clarify or define what you mean by all-indulgent? 

No. Not really.

:John Crichton Mode:
Fine.  For the 89th time:  Once upon a time, there was a god named God, and he lived in a void, and he is so mysterious, you can't imagine him!  One day, while God was out doing godly things, he decide to make this amazing life filled garden, and then he decided to make some nice new friends.    The only problem was, God was unhappy that his new friends also wanted to do different things that he didn't like, even though he made them that way!     ???  They could have lived happily ever after, except that God decide to rape, torture and confuse the hell out of us for thousands of years on end!  So here and now we are, still getting our asses shot off again and again, yet, miracle of miracles, there are so many people on this planet who want to make nice and be friends with him!  I think the human race deserves kudos for being so generous.
:/John Crichton Mode:

Tristan Mode: I would like to...sniffle, sniffle... just move on now in a dignified discourse. /Tristan mode

1.   Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2.   A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3.   Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4.   A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5.   Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6.   Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7.   If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.

This is good, because now you and everyone else here have something to work with.  Where atheists are not convinced is where you know that you can refine your proof/argument.  Approach it this way, and this could be very constructive.

The above is the way I see it. I fully realize it is not a rock solid, Boolean logical analysis of dignity. But you or someone asked me to state exactly what I believe and this is it. And from the beginning, all I've asked is what foundation atheists have for their dignity.

I'm satisfied I have the answer to that question: from their own belief that they are good or from other people telling them they are good.

Anyone in here disagree? If not. Let's start a new thread.

[Egor]

1.   Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2.   A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3.   Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4.   A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5.   Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6.   Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7.   If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.

The first premise hinges on the working definition of "real". Are you talking about percieved or "absolute" reality?

An absolute reality. Anything less would not be real dignity but only the illusion of dignity. If one wants to claim that dignity is an illusion, I can accept that. I won't agree with it, but I think it's a way of answering the question of the OP.

The second is fallacious since a person can indeed give himself a "High position and worth"

Well, that's your opinion. I'm not talking about a bank account and a job. I'm talking about a standing within humanity as a whole.

The third is not a logical derivative from the second. (Sorry, Tank, I REALLY couldn't come up with a better example) I can not give myself a blowjob. Does that mean that no other person can give me one?

Nice example of dignity. That also answers my question stated in the OP. Especially since you say you "cannot" come up with a better example. Be that as it may...

If no person can give himself or herself dignity, they have no dignity to give to anyone else. It doesn't matter what any other human thinks of my worth or position, they're just a human being like me.

The fourth is not a logical derivative from any of the above

Correct, it's an independent premise and something that could be debated further.

The fifth is a half-statement and should be grouped with the sixth under the same number.
Number six is not a logical derivative from any of the above with regard to dignity being a delusion

No, #6 is true if the other statements are true.

Number seven is the sum-total of the other fallacies.

It's the sum total, I agree. (not with the "fallacies" part).

[The Magic Pudding]

Oooooh, that looks dignified.
Letting your body know whose boss, driving out temptation, getting closer to god, ye.

[history_geek]

1.   Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2.   A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3.   Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4.   A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5.   Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6.   Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7.   If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.

The first premise hinges on the working definition of "real". Are you talking about percieved or "absolute" reality?

An absolute reality. Anything less would not be real dignity but only the illusion of dignity. If one wants to claim that dignity is an illusion, I can accept that. I won't agree with it, but I think it's a way of answering the question of the OP.

The second is fallacious since a person can indeed give himself a "High position and worth"

Well, that's your opinion. I'm not talking about a bank account and a job. I'm talking about a standing within humanity as a whole.

The third is not a logical derivative from the second. (Sorry, Tank, I REALLY couldn't come up with a better example) I can not give myself a blowjob. Does that mean that no other person can give me one?

Nice example of dignity. That also answers my question stated in the OP. Especially since you say you "cannot" come up with a better example. Be that as it may...

If no person can give himself or herself dignity, they have no dignity to give to anyone else. It doesn't matter what any other human thinks of my worth or position, they're just a human being like me.

The fourth is not a logical derivative from any of the above

Correct, it's an independent premise and something that could be debated further.

The fifth is a half-statement and should be grouped with the sixth under the same number.
Number six is not a logical derivative from any of the above with regard to dignity being a delusion

No, #6 is true if the other statements are true.

Number seven is the sum-total of the other fallacies.

It's the sum total, I agree. (not with the "fallacies" part).

And all of this you base on your defenition of "dignity", that requires a "higher being" that you chose to be the Abrahamic "god". To quote Tank:

dig·ni·ty
   [dig-ni-tee]
noun, plural -ties.
1.
bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation.
2.
nobility or elevation of character; worthiness: dignity of sentiments.
3.
elevated rank, office, station, etc.
4.
relative standing; rank.
5.
a sign or token of respect: an impertinent question unworthy of the dignity of an answer.

I think the best example is "elevation of character", since this can be done by the person themselves or others.  And we're not talking about rank or station, which comes next.

And as for Asmo's example, it is about something one cannot do to oneself but what someone else can. Even if it is a bit on the extremely erotic side..

And to be honest I can't think of a different example that would be as fitting...

But really, it comes always back to the fact that all of this hangs on your defeniton that requires the existance of a being that most of don't even believe to exist.

and I don't think anyones yet answered: Why does the being that is able to give dgnity have to be the Abrahamic "god, or even more precisely the Christian version of it? Why not Krishna, Ukko, Odin, etc. or the Deistic "god"?

Also, why leave things like "all-indulgent" undefined, when they seem to be rather important to your assertion? That's not what I understand as propper debate where one needs to clearly define what one means when speaking about such subjective matter as "god" and the like, in order for everyone to grasp what exaclty it is that you are trying to say... 

[Norfolk And Chance]

OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.

[Tank]

OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.

Yep. And achieved nothing whatsoever in the process.

[Too Few Lions]

OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.

Yeah, I came to that conclusion too when I read his definition. It's a bit like me defining dignity as 'a real state of high position and worth that only comes from looking at the universe in a rational and scientific way and by not worshipping any supernatural power or having any lord or master', and then starting a thread asking how can any Christian have any dignity?

Obviously they can't because I've made up my own definition of dignity that automatically precludes Christians. It's crap logic.

[Asmodean]

And as for Asmo's example, it is about something one cannot do to oneself but what someone else can. Even if it is a bit on the extremely erotic side..

Yes. I was contesting the premise that because A can not give A something, B can not give it to A either.

The example was born out of lack of things I REALLY can not give myself. I was through objects, status, happiness, even love... But those I can, at least to a degree, obtain through own effort.

My back is too stiff for a selfblowing though.

[Gawen]

Asmo, you're blowing your dignity....ummm...

yeah....by whinging about not being able to give yourself self-gratification in one particular way. Bite the bullet...ahhhh...

yeah....and bake an apple pie.

Besides, it seems it would be difficult to breathe when you're bent over trying to gag yourself.

And you'll strain your back....

again...

*laffin*