Hey guys

[Heisenberg]

Hey everyone, new member here. Been reading the forum for a few weeks now and I like what I read so I figure it's time to start posting.

My deal: I was raised as a reformed Jew (had a Bar Mitzvah) which I was never really crazy about. But I didn't care enough when I was younger to actually do anything about it even though I don't think I ever really believed in God since I was old enough to actually think. My parents aren't unreasonable, they're probably both more agnostic than anything else, so if I put up a fight I think I could have gotten out of it. Though I knew I had a big payday coming my way and I don't really regret it. If anything, it just strengthens my beliefs now. I've been to temple about 4 times since, all for other Bar/Bat Mitzvahs, and have no intention of going back.

I'm lucky enough that no one in my family is really that religious. I read some stories about people having to 'come out' to their families and I find it horrifying. My Grandma is probably my only religious family member (she's from my Dads side which is Catholic) but she's never really asked me about it. Here's hoping she never does...

[xSilverPhinx]

Welcome!

[Tank]

Hi Heisenberg

So you maded it past your uncertainty then?  

Welcome to HAF

Regards
Chris

[Heisenberg]

He, yea. I'm a big fan of physics and Breaking Bad, so I figured it was legit.

[Attila]

He, yea. I'm a big fan of physics and Breaking Bad, so I figured it was legit.

Yo Heis,
Welcome dude. Just try to stay off the shabu, right?
Catch you later, gotta bounce.
Attila

[Heisenberg]

Thanks. Yea methamphetamine isn't really my thing.

[Attila]

Thanks. Yea methamphetamine isn't really my thing.

I was trying to sound like Jessie. Don't know if I succeeded.  
Try Ribolla Gialla from around my area. Much cheaper and totally legal. Really good too.
ciao,
Attila

[Ildiko]

Hi Hei (sorry, couldn't resist that)!

I've cut & pasted this from my intro thread to yours because I think it belongs here. We were talking about why you like the description "godless heathen":

I like any neutral phrase that some people consider offensive. I was reading another forum where a poster called themself Catholic, yet all of their viewpoints made it clear that they were agnostic. They basically said that we can't know if there is a God or not. When another poster said the OP sounded like an agnostic, they were offended and said there was no need to resort to name calling!

Catholic is an interesting word. For some reason that I'm too tired to check right now, upper case Catholic = religion, but lower-case catholic = "broad" as in catholic tastes. But that sounds like a very weird response.

[Heisenberg]

Yea it was bizarre. It's like they believe that there is something inherently negative about being an atheist/agnostic, rather than just understand that we see things differently than them. But this person made it clear that they attended church regularly yet openly admitted that we can't know anything about God's existence. That's pretty much the definition of agnostic. Maybe if he was referred to as an agnostic theist it would have elicited a less negative response.

[xSilverPhinx]

God forbid, being labeled an agnostic!  

IMO many people don't see 'agnostic' as compatible with either 'atheist' or 'theist', which is odd, since they're about different things. (A)gnosticism having to do with knowledge and (a)theism, with belief.

[Heisenberg]

I mean everybody is technically agnostic, with the exception of the 1s and 7s on the Dawkins scale, of which there can't be too many. But it kind of irritates me that some people simply refer to themselves as agnostic because they don't know if god exists or not. Well of course you don't know, nobody does. That doesn't mean you can't form an opinion. Unless you happen to believe, as number fours on the Dawkins scale do, that god's existence and lack of existence is exactly equiprobable. Come on now, EXACTLY equiprobable? There's nothing that tips these people one way or the other?

[xSilverPhinx]

I mean everybody is technically agnostic, with the exception of the 1s and 7s on the Dawkins scale, of which there can't be too many. But it kind of irritates me that some people simply refer to themselves as agnostic because they don't know if god exists or not. Well of course you don't know, nobody does. That doesn't mean you can't form an opinion. Unless you happen to believe, as number fours on the Dawkins scale do, that god's existence and lack of existence is exactly equiprobable. Come on now, EXACTLY equiprobable? There's nothing that tips these people one way or the other?

Going a bit beyond agnosticism, if god is in the realm of the unknowable, then any guess is as good as another. Going down to the bare minimum, it's either "god exists" or "god doesn't exist"...50/50. I used to think this way, until I began to see the god concept more and more as something generated by the mind and not really perceived by it and opinions often confused with knowledge.

[Heisenberg]

Kind of like when someone says that they can't define god in any way, shape or form. It's like, then what are we debating here?

I'm kind of curious about people who would identify as a pantheist. I read a biography about Einstein earlier this year and from what I gather, he was definitely a pantheist. He constantly referred to 'god', but he was clearly talking about nature rather than some sentient being that formulated the laws of the universe. In that regard, he really sounds like an atheist. And the line between that type of thinking and the assertion that God can't be explained is looking pretty thin from where I'm sitting.

[Good and Godless]

I think it's funny because both sides try to claim Einstein.  I've read some interesting info on him and while he certainly uses the word god, he NEVER uses it to mean a personal god.  I think you're right; he saw the laws of nature as god, but didn't necessarily see them as being a creation of anyone/thing, just that which dictated how things worked and why.

Anyway, welcome! 

[xSilverPhinx]

I think his was Spinoza's god, but he neither sided with atheists (don't know how he defined that label) or theists (he renounced any ideas of personal gods).

At least based on his quotes.