The God Hypothesis

[Too Few Lions]

Just to add a last thing in this thread.

Science has it's own language to explain reality, from the micro-world, to the macro-world, to the mega-world.
Religion uses the language of methaphors and symbolism to describe reality.

I'd certainly say religion uses the language of methaphors and symbolism, but I don't think it describes reality in any way shape or form. Myths and religions may have attempted to serve that purpose thousands of years ago, but we live in more enlightened times. We have levels of knowledge and understanding about the universe that the writers of the Qu'ran or Bible or any other old religious texts couldn't ever have imagined.

[Sweetdeath]

I think the main word to use is "outdated."
Imagine living in those times where technology never existed. Humankind tried to use a rule or guidebook of stories to help them understand even the simplest thing.

You either evolve or get left behind. Period.

[Medusa]

Well I can see your side of things. But since I've been with a theist for 5 years or so, he's pretty much based in science and reason. He has made his arguments to me which do not involve the Qur'an but science. Doesn't mean I always follow it. But I so see where he's getting his opinions from.

I just thought, a Muslim and a Satanist, I bet there aren't many couples like that in the world. Does he think that you're going to burn in hell and have boiling hot water poured down your throat for all eternity after you die? or does he ignore that part of the Qur'an!

I'll get to that part in a minute.



I will ask him if he'd like to join. Though he may not be able to A)join right away or B) might be able to but posts may be days in the making. He starts his residency program at the hospital (he's a doctor! Yippe!) and his first two months are in his specialty, which is surgery. So with long butt shifts and 6 day work week I don't know if he has the time.


And now for the going to hell part. You'd think I would have dealt with this question on numerous occasions. This occasion being someone asking me such a question. Only you and one other person has thought to ask that. I guess the other people were just happy I found love. But whatever.  I did ask him this question (when the other person asked) and the answer he gave me was this.

I do not presume to know who is going to hell. I could be going to hell In šāʾ Allāh (God willing). My fiance loves me and I love him. He respects me and does not push HIS religion on me or keep me from practicing mine. Nor do I keep him from his religion etc.

*trust me this is why I say he's a man of science. Unless you become a medical doctor with the knowledge of a goat.

[Too Few Lions]

Well I can see your side of things. But since I've been with a theist for 5 years or so, he's pretty much based in science and reason. He has made his arguments to me which do not involve the Qur'an but science. Doesn't mean I always follow it. But I so see where he's getting his opinions from.

I just thought, a Muslim and a Satanist, I bet there aren't many couples like that in the world. Does he think that you're going to burn in hell and have boiling hot water poured down your throat for all eternity after you die? or does he ignore that part of the Qur'an!

I'll get to that part in a minute.



I will ask him if he'd like to join. Though he may not be able to A)join right away or B) might be able to but posts may be days in the making. He starts his residency program at the hospital (he's a doctor! Yippe!) and his first two months are in his specialty, which is surgery. So with long butt shifts and 6 day work week I don't know if he has the time.


And now for the going to hell part. You'd think I would have dealt with this question on numerous occasions. This occasion being someone asking me such a question. Only you and one other person has thought to ask that. I guess the other people were just happy I found love. But whatever.  I did ask him this question (when the other person asked) and the answer he gave me was this.

I do not presume to know who is going to hell. I could be going to hell In šāʾ Allāh (God willing). My fiance loves me and I love him. He respects me and does not push HIS religion on me or keep me from practicing mine. Nor do I keep him from his religion etc.

*trust me this is why I say he's a man of science. Unless you become a medical doctor with the knowledge of a goat.

good answer, I'm happy that you found love too. I always like to think heaven and hell would be the same place anyway if they did exist, as my idea of hell would be the idea of having to spend eternity with a bunch of devout Christians (or Muslims) 

[Gawen]

"The evidence is everywhere, you just need to believe first." is a common theological excuse.

Too many theists fall under this and it's called "Begging the Question" and Isok uses it many times. Essentially, they're saying that one needs to be biased and interpret everything with "God Glasses" on.  At any rate, this argument admits that the evidence for God isn't really out there, that it's all a matter of interpretation, not evidence. 

Isok (and others) also use the fallacy of division, where that a whole has a property, a part of the whole also has that property (eg. in his Gods attributes). Example: God is this and the Universe is that which is god. It's like saying water is liquid, therefore H2O molecules are liquid.
Isok used the appeal to authority fallacy as well.

And then we saw the Weak Analogy fallacy:
(1) A and B are similar.
(2) God has a certain attributes.
Therefore:
(3) Man (Universe, whatever) must have that characteristic too.

Everyone uses these fallacies whether knowingly or not from time to time. The problem with Isok in particular and theism in general is that - science proposes hypotheses as explanations/proof/evidence of phenomena, whereas theology does it backwards. Theology has built in phenomena (god) and then tries to explain/prove/evidence it, which is a fallacy in itself.

One can hypothesize a god. But the hypothesis fails until some sort of quanitative/qualitative evidence surfaces to support it. Cramming fallacies and wishful thinking into evidence doesn't work until someone (everyone) can actually trot out a god and say "See? There it is!"

[Sweetdeath]

I think i'm going to make a pair of god glassses irl now. XD

[Too Few Lions]

I'm not feeling quite so lucky right now though. It's 7pm here and I've been stuck in the office since 5 because it's been hammering down like a monsoon for the past three hours non-stop! I'd get absolutely drenched walking home in eight minutes, and that's with my umbrella and kagool.

incessant shit cold wet weather is one of the many reasons why I don't believe there's a god! But seriously, I do wonder if it's partly a reason why there's a bedrock of atheism in Nordic countries.

[Sweetdeath]

When I used to work in long island (gift and bar mitzvah shop);  whenever it rained a little, it flooded.

It was literally hell. I also feel SO BAD for anyone who is without power for a long period of time.

If there is a god, and he enjoys watching humanity o through this constant barrade of extreme weather, he's not a god worthy of love or worship.
Don't believe believe in the sky daddy anyway, but man, it's   annoying.

[xSilverPhinx]

I'd like to be the devil's/god's advocate for a while here and say that's it's already quite reasonable to assume that humanity is not at the center of the universe or much less Earth, so why would should he/she/it care if people are flooded?

[Too Few Lions]

I'd like to be the devil's/god's advocate for a while here and say that's it's already quite reasonable to assume that humanity is not at the center of the universe or much less Earth, so why would should he/she/it care if people are flooded?

it's funny you should use the phrase 'center of the universe or much less Earth', one of my main interests in mythology / religion is the idea of the axis mundi and the belief that god(s)' home was at the pole star, the centre of the heavens

[Stevil]

I'd like to be the devil's/god's advocate for a while here and say that's it's already quite reasonable to assume that humanity is not at the center of the universe or much less Earth, so why would should he/she/it care if people are flooded?

People also assume their god to be good, but maybe there is a god that doesn't really care about morals.

[Sweetdeath]

I dunno. Even though my pet rat Mikoto is not the center of my wotld, I should still feed and change her bedding. XP

If a god claims to be all loving and merciful, then letting peopls be crushed to death in a huricane is kind of cruel.

[xSilverPhinx]

it's funny you should use the phrase 'center of the universe or much less Earth', one of my main interests in mythology / religion is the idea of the axis mundi and the belief that god(s)' home was at the pole star, the centre of the heavens

Whose mythology would that be? ???

People also assume their god to be good, but maybe there is a god that doesn't really care about morals.

To make it worse, it's an immoral or amoral (according to the bible, does not adhere to the same morality that he wants people to adhere to) but perfect god who cares so much about morals. Try and make sense of that

I dunno. Even though my pet rat Mikoto is not the center of my wotld, I should still feed and change her bedding. XP

If a god claims to be all loving and merciful, then letting peopls be crushed to death in a huricane is kind of cruel.

"If a god claims to be theists claim that their god is all loving and merciful..."

There's the problem.

[Too Few Lions]

it's funny you should use the phrase 'center of the universe or much less Earth', one of my main interests in mythology / religion is the idea of the axis mundi and the belief that god(s)' home was at the pole star, the centre of the heavens

Whose mythology would that be? ???

Pretty much everyone's! There's elements of it in ancient Egyptian religion, Sumerian / Babylonian religion, Hinduism, ancient Greek religion, Canaanite religion, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Norse religion, Mongolian religion, Taoism, Aztec religion etc etc even some stone circles (and the Pyramids) have alignments to the old pole star of the time.

Along with the Sun, it was the most important celestial object of worship. It was generally represented in religions / mythology by the World Tree (eg Yggdrasil) or World Pillar (Irminsul) or Holy Mountain (eg Olympus / Meru / Sinai / Zion etc) and was linked to the idea of there being a navel of the Earth (eg Mecca, Delphi, Jerusalem, Bodh Gaya), the eartly equivalent of the pole star.

I think it's pretty logical for the ancients to have perceived the home of the gods to have been at the centre of the heavens from where they could  control the universe;

[Sweetdeath]

^ i've noticed this!   All mythologies revolve around the sun as their main object of worship.

I love the sun god Ra from Egyptian mythology. <3