Sharia Law in UK!

[Davin]

Out of fear of punishment people will abstain from any form of crime.

This has been demonstrated as incorrect through various studies.

[Gawen]

Locking a human being in a cage like a dog for life is not counted as barbaric?

I should say that would depend on one's definition of "civil". If one believes in the death penalty, then that solves much of life in prison. If one doesn't believe in the death penalty, then what choice does one have but to lock up a threat to themselves and/or society?

Sharia law might be extremely cruel, but it's doing exactly what it's meant to do.

Yes, and the UK hung pirates publicly and displayed them in the approaches to many ports of call. The U.S. held public hangings as well. Both were doing exactly what it was meant to do. But it didn't stop pirates not violent crimes, did it?

I can see the lopping off of a mass murder's head. But I can't see the stoning of a young girl who disobeyed her father and saw the man she's in love with anway. I can't see the stoning of a woman or removal of a man's penis for adultery. I can't see the removal of an arm or a hand for stealing a loaf of bread. These punishments ARE barbaric. Sharia law is cruel and barbaric.

Out of fear of punishment people will abstain from any form of crime.

We all know what a fallacy this is.

Compare the crime of rates of countries like Saudi, Oman, Qatar and UAE with that of US or GB. (See nationmaster.com for yourself)

Everybody has crime rates. But consider that in the US, less than 1 percent of one percent of atheists are in prison.

Note that the Sharia is fractured in these countries, the ruling class (tyrants) fear that an authentic sharia
will end their dominion.

I do note that. And I am of the opinion that probably most of those countries exhibit the characteristics of a cultural level more complex than primitive savagery but less sophisticated than advanced civilization usually marked as having a bizarre, primitive, or unsophisticated quality.

[iSok]

Out of fear of punishment people will abstain from any form of crime.

This has been demonstrated as incorrect through various studies.

Sharia is not just about applying the death penalty, it's an organic system with multiple levels.
Nit-picking and the system won't work but will crumble, what is obvious in many so called Islamic countries.

The Sharia is trying to prevent crime in the first place, for example:

- Alcohol is strictly forbidden (Human beings should be aware of their actions.)
- Adultery is forbidden within the system, it encourages a healthy environment for children to grow up.
- It demands a fair policy from the government so poverty and corruption will not spread. (A problem in almost every Islamic country).

If you look up the stats of inmates in the United States, how many of them are from broken families?

Despite poverty and corruption, the crime rates in peaceful Sharia states are far and far lower than any Western country.
(See nationmaster.com for statistics).

Frauds (per 1000) -
UK (5.2832)
USA (1.2572)
Saudi (0.0020)

Burglaries (per 1000)
UK (13.83)
USA (7.01)
Saudi (0.0004)

Assaults (per 1000)
UK (7.46)
USA (7.56)
Saudi (0.1781)

I did not add rape statistics, since that is not fair.

I should say that would depend on one's definition of "civil". If one believes in the death penalty, then that solves much of life in prison. If one doesn't believe in the death penalty, then what choice does one have but to lock up a threat to themselves and/or society?

So you put them in a cell as a last resort? Most inmates see prison as an university, they don't really care whether they are locked up.
Almost 1% of the US population is in prison and most of them don't feel like coming out because they get institutionalised.

Yes, and the UK hung pirates publicly and displayed them in the approaches to many ports of call. The U.S. held public hangings as well. Both were doing exactly what it was meant to do. But it didn't stop pirates not violent crimes, did it?

I have no historical insight or knowledge of that era, so I can't really say anything or compare the two realities.
But the stats above are supporting my point.

I can see the lopping off of a mass murder's head. But I can't see the stoning of a young girl who disobeyed her father and saw the man she's in love with anway.

That's not Sharia law but tribal stupidity which stains the Sharia. In the case of the young girl, the two are freely allowed to marry.

You'll get stoned if you commit adultery without a proper divorce, man or woman.
Even then, there are very strict conditions, either you have to confess yourself or there have to be four reliable witnesses.
As I said above, the Sharia encourages a healthy environment for children, broken families are not really
helping children to grow up in a save environment.

I can't see the stoning of a woman or removal of a man's penis for adultery. I can't see the removal of an arm or a hand for stealing a loaf of bread. These punishments ARE barbaric. Sharia law is cruel and barbaric.

There are very strict conditions and it happens rarely and you are not getting your hands removed for a loaf of bread...
You really have to do something out of greed instead of fulfilling basic human needs to make that happen.

We all know what a fallacy this is.

See stats above...

Everybody has crime rates. But consider that in the US, less than 1 percent of one percent of atheists are in prison.

That's very good, but don't feel proud if I say the following.
Most atheists and agnostics are from higher classes, for now atleast. Usually this group of people do not end up
in prison since they are educated, the same could be said of educated Christians or Muslims, it has nothing to do with being
an atheist....

I do note that. And I am of the opinion that probably most of those countries exhibit the characteristics of a cultural level more complex than primitive savagery but less sophisticated than advanced civilization usually marked as having a bizarre, primitive, or unsophisticated quality.

There's no such thing as human progress or becoming an 'advanced civilization'....
And don't be so racist with seeing your own culture as 'better' than the rest...

[penfold]

- Alcohol is strictly forbidden (Human beings should be aware of their actions.)
- Adultery is forbidden within the system, it encourages a healthy environment for children to grow up.
- It demands a fair policy from the government so poverty and corruption will not spread. (A problem in almost every Islamic country).

If you look up the stats of inmates in the United States, how many of them are from broken families?

Despite poverty and corruption, the crime rates in peaceful Sharia states are far and far lower than any Western country.
(See nationmaster.com for statistics).

Well the forbidding of alcohol is something I could get behind; it is a terrible drug responsible for really shocking amounts of violent and sexual crime. (Though given the deep cultural roots of drinking I am not sure prohibition would ever work in the west)

Adultery laws are more concerning for me. I worry that there is a strong inequality between men and women in the eyes of Sharia (correct me if I am wrong on this point, my understanding is admittedly limited). I would worry that in countries which limit women in terms of public space (ie dress codes, no driving licences etc...) in terms of legal rights (ie rape laws requiring a higher burden of proof for women) reproductive rights, and property ownership; that adultery laws may well be a tool of oppression.

I don't think our system is perfect. In fact driving home through London tonight was a pretty intimidating experience, police on every corner and shops barricading themselves.

However I do think on some issues we are better than countries like Saudi Arabia ('SA'). I think women have more power here. Our immigration laws are fairer (in SA the majority oil workers are illiterate immigrants whose right to stay is linked to their ability to work).

Most importantly we have one law for everyone. State sanctioned violence is as illegal as any other form of violence. In SA troops have recently been sent against unarmed civilians who are protesting. In fact SA troops were even sent to Bahrain to shoot civilians there.

I agree the Western self-perception of cultural and moral superiority is as absurd as it is racist. However just as SA does better in terms of the prevention of crime I would maintain we do better in terms of the rights of individuals and limiting state authority.

Maybe we can try and learn from each other, rather than demagogic alignment with one world view vs the other.

[iSok]

- Alcohol is strictly forbidden (Human beings should be aware of their actions.)
- Adultery is forbidden within the system, it encourages a healthy environment for children to grow up.
- It demands a fair policy from the government so poverty and corruption will not spread. (A problem in almost every Islamic country).

If you look up the stats of inmates in the United States, how many of them are from broken families?

Despite poverty and corruption, the crime rates in peaceful Sharia states are far and far lower than any Western country.
(See nationmaster.com for statistics).

Well the forbidding of alcohol is something I could get behind; it is a terrible drug responsible for really shocking amounts of violent and sexual crime. (Though given the deep cultural roots of drinking I am not sure prohibition would ever work in the west)

Adultery laws are more concerning for me. I worry that there is a strong inequality between men and women in the eyes of Sharia (correct me if I am wrong on this point, my understanding is admittedly limited). I would worry that in countries which limit women in terms of public space (ie dress codes, no driving licences etc...) in terms of legal rights (ie rape laws requiring a higher burden of proof for women) reproductive rights, and property ownership; that adultery laws may well be a tool of oppression.

I don't think our system is perfect. In fact driving home through London tonight was a pretty intimidating experience, police on every corner and shops barricading themselves.

However I do think on some issues we are better than countries like Saudi Arabia ('SA'). I think women have more power here. Our immigration laws are fairer (in SA the majority oil workers are illiterate immigrants whose right to stay is linked to their ability to work).

Most importantly we have one law for everyone. State sanctioned violence is as illegal as any other form of violence. In SA troops have recently been sent against unarmed civilians who are protesting. In fact SA troops were even sent to Bahrain to shoot civilians there.

I agree the Western self-perception of cultural and moral superiority is as absurd as it is racist. However just as SA does better in terms of the prevention of crime I would maintain we do better in terms of the rights of individuals and limiting state authority.

Maybe we can try and learn from each other, rather than demagogic alignment with one world view vs the other.

I certainly share your view Penfold, the problem lies in most Muslim countries in the ridiculous tribal laws and the tyrants ruling in these countries.  
As I said in previous posts, SA is very far from perfect, almost every Muslim complains about their attitude.
Their approach to the oil workers, their treatment of women (in Iran, a lot of women work as a taxidriver), their social structure and so on...
But I wanted to make clear that the Sharia, despite the corrupt government is still a good way of keeping crime rates low.

Muslims in the modern world see themselves as strangers because everywhere they turn, they see corruption and nowhere a fair approach of the Sharia.
There's a global movement because of this that desperately wants to set up a fair Muslim state, called a Caliphat, since there
is no fair Muslim state that can be found. Opression is everywhere and Muslims feel like rats in a maze ready to be exterminated.

[Gawen]

Tribes, tribal laws, National laws, Sharia laws, barbarism, oppression, ....I'm not going to get into a semantic slogfest over what barbarism means, or the differences between oppression and law.

Suffice it to say that the many, if not the majority of the Western world in comparison considers Islamic Law as barbarous, oppressive, over controlling and as for me, many Islamic countries do not have a highly developed society and culture and/or do not show evidence of moral, ethical, intellectual and humane advancement; hence uncivilised. Is Iran as civilised as, say France?

Societies and cultures change. They have to change or become retarded (if change is extremely slow) or stagnant. It is hoped that society and culture change and develop for the better for as many people as it can. Sharia Law cannot do this and has remained virtually the same for the last 1000 years. Add into that the oppressive attitudes against western music, clothing and things of that nature...

Well, I understand if you do not understand what I'm saying.

I forgot...and I'll only speak for myself. There isn't a racist bone in my body. Humans are their own race.

[iSok]

Tribes, tribal laws, National laws, Sharia laws, barbarism, oppression, ....I'm not going to get into a semantic slogfest over what barbarism means, or the differences between oppression and law.

Suffice it to say that the many, if not the majority of the Western world in comparison considers Islamic Law as barbarous, oppressive, over controlling and as for me, many Islamic countries do not have a highly developed society and culture and/or do not show evidence of moral, ethical, intellectual and humane advancement; hence uncivilised. Is Iran as civilised as, say France?

Societies and cultures change. They have to change or become retarded (if change is extremely slow) or stagnant. It is hoped that society and culture change and develop for the better for as many people as it can. Sharia Law cannot do this and has remained virtually the same for the last 1000 years. Add into that the oppressive attitudes against western music, clothing and things of that nature...

Well, I understand if you do not understand what I'm saying.

I forgot...and I'll only speak for myself. There isn't a racist bone in my body. Humans are their own race.

Too be honest Gawen, I admire the west's integrity and honesty, atleast that of certain individuals...
But what I really don't like is western culture: Mass consumer culture.
I would hardly call it a rich culture if I have to be honest...
It's spreading like cancer under the cloak of 'Civilization' and it's influence on the environment and on human beings
is devastating. Eventually the tumor will kill the body and it'll be too late.

This sums it up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmbkfTiLQ58

[OhCheese]

And sometimes it ends up with a nutcase killing innocent people to stop the invasion of Islam.

I think you're referring to the Norwegian massacre there.  I don't think we'll see that kind of thing very often in Europe, but these Islamists certainly are alienating the majority population.  As people get poorer and more discontented, I fear we may see more open friction.

Yes, I was referring to that incident. But your comment shows how your mind is affected by the media without realising.
'Norwegian massacre', because it was done by a non-Muslim. 'Norwegian terrorist/terror strike' if it was done by a Muslim.

The reality is that Muslims in the east are terrified, they see themselves as the victims of a second crusade.
No one can explain why countries like Afghanistan and Iraq were invaded and the reality of the puppet regimes in countries
like Saudi-Arabia. It's only normal to see a response in some way, unfortunately the media is all about making 'hot' news.

I'm down for some of those laws to be honest. I mean the sheer number of rapists and child predators that get paroled is sickening. I'm up for some old fashioned stoning in the village center.

Sharia punishments are incredible cruel and terrifying. But they are not meant to be executed in reality but only to spread fear.
My uncle works as an architect in Saudi-Arabia so he has a good live. You can basically sleep in a park with all the jewels and necklaces
you can find, without anyone even touching you. (Note that the difference between the wealthy and the poor is far higher because
of the millions immigrants that are coming from countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and so on to work in Saudi).
Compare the crime rates of Saudi-Arabia and other Muslim states (that are peaceful and adhere to the Sharia) with that of the UK.
For example the amount of car thefts in the UK and Saudi-Arabia.

Saudi: 0.1 per 1000
UK: 5.6 per 1000 (Nationmaster.com)

If the government would change it's policy (not neglecting the immigrants for example) and delete the
tribal laws (which gives the royal family power) from it's constitution and fully adhere to the Sharia. Then crime would basically dissapear in Saudi.

The Sharia is not going to work in the UK, nor is it meant to be a political tool.
According to the Sharia: Alcohol is bad, Drugs are bad, Adultery is bad and so on.
Non-Muslims will no doubt frown upon this, if a society actually doesn't see this as wrong then
the Sharia has no place in that society, nor will it ever work.

Are you kidding me?? What about women can't drive there? what about people can't walk in streets in pray time?? I am from Middle East btw so I know everything about Islam, maybe some people believe you because they never been in Islamic country but not me, I know what is Sharia Law and I know how it works, It is most bad law in the world, Women can't go out without man, women can't speak free, women gonna be like nothing under sharia law, and kills homosexual and kills anyone leave Islam and kill anyone again Islamic though. Baby as I told you I am from Islamic background and I know how Muslim thinking.

[OhCheese]

Btw you talking about KSA there is no much of crime or something, Nooooooooooo Really??? Hahahahaha a lot of bad things happen but in doors, a lot of horrible things happen in KSA and it is in doors, everybody in Middle East knows what happen in KSA. but it is like Don't ask don't tell. that how things work there.

[OhCheese]

NO TO SHARIA LAW. NO TO SHARIA LAW. NO TO SHARIA LAW AND I WILL DO ALL WHAT I CAN DO TO MAKE  THE WORLD SEE THE TRUTH BELIEVE ME, NO ONE MORE DANGER THEN EX MUSLIM

[Medusa]

I'm down for some of those laws to be honest. I mean the sheer number of rapists and child predators that get paroled is sickening. I'm up for some old fashioned stoning in the village center.

Well then, you'll love the theocracy of America if it happens. Oh...but wait....you'll have to become a believer just like them and your boyfriend will have to convert or face deportation or death by stoning.

I can understand the death penalty in certain circumstances. But I can't understand the willingness of such a barbaric way of killing someone.

I'm moving to Egypt to marry my Muslim boyfriend. So....

I can understand thinking it barbaric. The things done to me were barbaric. In fact I have an inate hate of being touched by anyone...even a hug by my own mother. Think long and hard what could cause a person to have a negative physical response to being touched by the people that love her. Think on that a while and then talk to me about the meaning of the word barbaric.

Alright. The meaning of 'barbaric' is possessing of or characteristic of a cultural level more complex than primitive savagery but less sophisticated than advanced civilization usually marked as having a bizarre, primitive, or unsophisticated quality.

Slow death by stoning, slow death by hanging and slow death by asphyxiation, clitoral circumcision, subjugation of women (just five examples), what in my worldview are barbaric as described above. Yet you would willingly marry into a religion that has many, if not all of the qualifiers of the definition of 'barbaric'.

What happened to you is/was unfortunate, perverted and wrong. And I understand the concept of revenge. I don't know what to tell you...other than I hope your anger is lessened over time and that with appropriate help your unfortunate psychological problems will go away or become lessened enough to enjoy a hug from those who love you.

Now I could go on and counteract what you have stated and show you the misinformation of your generalizations. But we both know that would be me chatting away to a wall. And I'd rather not. We have very different views of things. So I will just say this..

I was born a barbarian. 

[Gawen]

Btw you talking about KSA there is no much of crime or something, Nooooooooooo Really??? Hahahahaha a lot of bad things happen but in doors, a lot of horrible things happen in KSA and it is in doors, everybody in Middle East knows what happen in KSA. but it is like Don't ask don't tell. that how things work there.

What is KSA?

[Gawen]

Now I could go on and counteract what you have stated and show you the misinformation of your generalizations. But we both know that would be me chatting away to a wall. And I'd rather not. We have very different views of things.

So this is your definition of "due diligence"?

So I will just say this..

I was born a barbarian. 

You were born an atheist and with no knowledge of barbarism. What changed?

Never mind about answering. It was a rhetorical question from a wall.

[Davin]

Out of fear of punishment people will abstain from any form of crime.

This has been demonstrated as incorrect through various studies.

Sharia is not just about applying the death penalty, it's an organic system with multiple levels.
Nit-picking and the system won't work but will crumble, what is obvious in many so called Islamic countries.

The Sharia is trying to prevent crime in the first place, for example:

- Alcohol is strictly forbidden (Human beings should be aware of their actions.)

Yes, here in the U.S. we have no idea what would happen if we passed some kind of federal law that would prohibit alchohol... oh wait... Long story short: it increased the amount of crime.

If you look up the stats of inmates in the United States, how many of them are from broken families?

How many? How many are atheists? Hardly any. I guess the point of looking up the statistics is to show that being an atheist is better than sharia law?

Despite poverty and corruption, the crime rates in peaceful Sharia states are far and far lower than any Western country.
(See nationmaster.com for statistics).

Frauds (per 1000) -
UK (5.2832)
USA (1.2572)
Saudi (0.0020)

Burglaries (per 1000)
UK (13.83)
USA (7.01)
Saudi (0.0004)

Assaults (per 1000)
UK (7.46)
USA (7.56)
Saudi (0.1781)

While that's all cute, let's look at other countries without sharia law as well as fewer capital punishments to make sure we're not cherry picking statistics (which you are).

Japan vs. Suadi Arabia Suadi Arabia has fiftteen times the capital punishment for being just slightly better.

Finland vs. Suadi Arabia No capital punishments for Finland and over all Saudi Arabia is just slightly better. you may also notice that Finland has 27 manslaughters and Saudi Arabia has 53... Good thing that sharia law is preventing people from kiling eachother, otherwise Saudi Arabia might have the out of control killing that is going on in Finland.

Switzerland vs. Saudi Arabia Look at that, no sharia law and fewer murders per capita with a larger population. How do they even manage a larger population like that where people are murdering less, without capital punishment and without sharia law?

Iceland vs. Saudi ArabiaWow, look at that! Much much fewer crimes, no sharia law...


Seriously though iSok, we could compare this all day with every country that doesn't have government mandated sharia law. What all this really points to is that people commit fewer crimes as the percentage of religious people gets smaller... on average. Cherry picking the US and the UK when there are so many other causes to describe the crimes is not effective. You provided two countries, and guess what, the US still issues capitol and other extreme punishments for crimes... and they still don't prevent people from commiting them. Any one remember a poor little thirteen year old girl getting sued for millions of dollars for downloading a few songs? Have extreme punishments like that stopped piracy? Definitely not. Digital piracy is even higher than before those punishments were issued (especially in Suadi Arabia for some reason).

I did not add rape statistics, since that is not fair.

Oh I agree that it's not fair, not when it's damn near impossible for a woman to even be considered as raped in Saudi Arabia. Requireing a minimum of four witnesses for a woman being raped even when there is much better evidence (like DNA evidence), does make comparing rape statistics between the countries kind of useless. I'm sure that any country that required four witnesses, for a rape to be considered a rape no matter what other evidence is provided, would drop the rape statistic to almost zero.

[Tank]

Putting my mod hat on for a moment.

This thread is getting a little heated and in some places a little personal, not surprising given the highly emotive nature of the subject matter, but please take a look at your next post and try to ensure it is as objective and impersonal as it should.

Chris