Hi, not Atheist

[Davin]

Yes it was a thought that I had a few days ago that just came up with no particulary reason.
So I don't even know whether I agree with this.

Could you however give a few more reasons for life than to experience and enjoy life?
Since you object to the very first point.

The purposes in ones life depends on the person. Even those that believe in an objective purpose are doing so subjectively due to the lack of objective evidence. This means we're all on the same playing field of life purposes. It is possible that a person has no purpose for their life, but I'm sure that is very rare.

You stated earlier that, "3. Existence is the only purpose, nothing else." Now you're stating that a purpose of life is to experience it as well as adding in another purpose of enjoying life. So in the first premise you stated "1. Life has no purpose." But you've already come up with three different purposes for life since then. Also adding in experiencing and enjoying life really screws up your argument because now instead of just not following, you've wiped out many other premises:

1. Life has no purpose. Life has at least three purposes: existence, experiencing and enjoying.
2. The only reason we want to exist is because of our instinct to survive and to experience life and to to enjoy life.
3. Existence is the only purpose, nothing else. Existence is a purpose, experiencing life is a purpose and enjoying life is a purpose.
4. Analytical reasoning beings will no longer be ruled by instinct, which destroys one part of point 2, but leaves still more purposes so this premise leads no where.
5. Point 3 will be taken into consideration.
6. Existence is the only purpose: Existence of the many or the existence of a few? Existence is not the only purpose. The second part is still a false dichotomy.
7. The few will end themselves for the many. No reason to do so.

Davin, I'm honest in this question.
I'm not taking the approach of 'you don't believe in God, kill yourself'.
If I happen to disbelief, enjoying life would be the only reason (which is the main reason right now also though...)

Oh don't worry, if I kill myself it won't be because of something someone said over the internet.

[Twentythree]

Thanks for the long but interesting post. It's a great contribution here, and an incredible insight especially to me as I know very little of the deeper teachings of Islam. It's always interesting to me how just a bit of rewriting makes all the difference.

The universe is controlled by laws, because of these laws there is order and no chaos.
Islam is of the opinion that one should submit to God, since everything else has already.
Not submitting is causing disorder; the universe is a sign for people to know that submission causes order.
One has to submit if there's enough evidence.

The universe is controlled by laws, because of these laws there is order (out of) chaos.
(Atheists are) of the opinion that one should submit to (Nature), since everything else has already.
Not submitting is causing disorder; the universe is a sign for people to know that submission causes order.
One has to submit if there's enough evidence.

[Too Few Lions]

Hi iSok
Interesting to hear your views from a Muslim perspective. I particularly like these images;

All names of God contain Tasbih and Tanzih, but some names are overruled with Tanzih and others are overruled with Tasbih. But this can be better explained in a graphic way

Tanzih: All worlds have the same center, but the center (God) has no dimension.

Tasbih: It symbolizes God's concern over other creatures in terms of kindness, mercy, compassion, and love.
Every creature is connected to the Center, it gains it's reality from the Center.

Tasbih & Tanzih together is Tawhid, declaring the Oneness of God. It's how God governs, sustains
and controls the universe in an organized way by preventing chaos.

In my personal reading into mythology and religion, it seems the idea of god(s) existing at the centre of everything is an ancient one, and is at least 5000 years old. In ancient Egypt, India, China and Greece, one of the most important seats of the god(s)was the pole star / celestial pole, which was seen as being the centre of the heavens (from our viewpoint on Earth all the stars appear to revolve around the pole every night). 

This was mirrored on the Earth by the idea of an omphalos / sacred centre. The Greeks had Delphi, the Jews and Christians have Jerusalem and you Muslims have Mecca.

Your pictures of Tasbih / Tanzih reminded me of both the ancient geocentric model of the Universe which Mohammed and the early Muslims believed in;



and also the Egyptian heiroglyph for the god Ra;



Your idea of Allah controlling the universe and preventing chaos also sounds very similar to ancient Egyptian beliefs, and the cosmic balance they called maat;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat

[Sweetdeath]

Too few lions:  Your knowledge on all the God(s) myths make me happy. I am not the only super nerd who loves to research everything.  

[xSilverPhinx]

iSok, thanks for the post, it does clarify your perspective, even if it didn't go too deep into Islamic teachings.

Too Few Lions, I thought of this after reading your post:



It's a medieval map, and that circle in the centre is Jerusalem.

[The Magic Pudding]

Your idea of Allah controlling the universe and preventing chaos also sounds very similar to ancient Egyptian beliefs, and the cosmic balance they called maat;

Just look into my eyes.

[Too Few Lions]

Too few lions:  Your knowledge on all the God(s) myths make me happy. I am not the only super nerd who loves to research everything.  

hehe I quite like the idea of being a supernerd! Actually, this does look a bit like me;

[Too Few Lions]

iSok, thanks for the post, it does clarify your perspective, even if it didn't go too deep into Islamic teachings.

Too Few Lions, I thought of this after reading your post:



It's a medieval map, and that circle in the centre is Jerusalem.

Yeah, Medieval Christians actually believed Jerusalem was the geographical centre of the Earth, just as many Muslims today seriously believe that Mecca is the geographical centre of the world. From at least the 4th Century the supposed burial spot of Jesus in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was viewed as the centre of the Earth by Christians.

I actually think the idea of an earthly centre / world axis is at the heart of biblical mythology. There's a tradition dating back to at least the second century that Jesus was crucified at the centre of the world, and that he was crucified on the same tree that Adam and Eve ate the fruit from. Hence the redemption of humanity happened at exactly the same location as the fall, both occurring at the centre of the world. 

You can see the link between Adam and Jesus in Christian icons of the crucuifixion. There's usually a skull under the crucifixion, it's the skull of Adam. Adam was also supposedly buried at the centre of the world, and Jesus was crucified at the same spot he was buried (Golgotha translates as 'the place of the skull' - the skull referring to Adam's skull). Jesus' blood cleansed his original sin and humanity's original fall;

[iSok]

Thank you for the responses, I forgot a very important part in my last post, so I'll finish that part before I respond.


It's how Islam looks at other human beings (non-Muslims). They are divided basically in the people of Reason and the people of Imagination.
From the Islamic perspective: Human intelligence consists of two main faculties: Imagination & Reason.

Islamic scholars were specialized in either one, two or in some rare cases all three fields of sacred knowledge.
Imam Al-Ghazali was a scholar who specialized in all three fields.

1. Kalam (Theology based on Revelation)
2. Philosophy (By Reason, mostly inspired by Neo-Platonism)
3. Theoretical Sufism (By Medidating to Experience God)

The Kalam scholars thought of things like 'How to differentiate between a 'good' Muslim and a 'bad' Muslim', 'Is the Qur'an created or Eternal?', 'Are God's attributes the same as God or are they different?', 'Do humans have free-will or are they predestinated?'.
Some scholars were highly critical of Kalam because of the overrationalizing and nit-picking.
The Kalam scholars maintained that their science was important as it gave people the understanding of who God was and how they should respond to God.
Profitable Knowledge according to Islam is the knowledge that prepares one for the encounter with God.
Scholars continue discussing up till today if certain branches of Kalam are actually fulfilling that role.

The philosophers developed a parallel with Kalam.  
But the philosophers were heavily influenced by the Greek intellectual heritage, especially Aristoteles.
The philosophers focused more on reality unlike the Kalam who focused on revelation.
The philosophers used reason as a primary tool and saw it as infallible, some of the philosophers eventually
claimed that one doesn't a need a prophet as they considered themselves to be prophets. Let's say that they were obsessed with reason.

Theoretical Sufism is the third branch. They focused on Imagination by writing a lot of poetry and using symbolic language.
Rumi is a classical example of theoretical Sufism if you read his poems.
The Sufis meditated on God's names, you could say that they act a lot like Buddhists.
They wanted to experience the truth instead of using primary revelation or reason.
Most of them followed the Prophet's Sunnah (The way of conduct) like on how to eat, sit, sleep so in generally on how to act and behave
in order to experience the nearness of God.


Earlier I explained Tanzih (Distance from God) and Tasbih (Nearness to God), together they form Tawhid (Oneness of God).
Understanding Tawhid means that one understands that every creature is simultaneously confronted with Mercy & Wrath, Gentleness & Severity,
Life-giving & Slaying, Bestowal & Withholding, Reality & Unreality.
This in order to balance the microcosmos within the human being, it shapes people and people choose how.
Knowledge can increase that process of shaping or it can also destroy it.
Islamic scholars are of the opinion that people should learn all three fields of knowledge to create a balance
within the human faculty and understand the limits of each respectable field. Nothing is infallible when it goes into extremes.
But when one all three are combined, one achieves an unshakable faith and peace within the heart from an Islamic perspective.
But what happens when one adopts Reason or Imagination as the main faculty?

To understand rationality in the Islamic perspective. One establishes the principle of either/or and it cannot be both.
People who use solely reason to understand the Real, they establish difference and separation. That's the only way reason can see.
Rational process emphasizes to greater analysis and difference.
The more attention people pay to difference the more they will see the cosmos as a separate object which can be analyzed in different parts.
This means that people eventually adopt the attitude of Tanzih (Distance from God).

Eventually people will find it logic and reasonable to become atheists or agnostic or see God in the way deists see Him.
This is called within Islam 'ta-til' which means 'divesting God of his function' and ultimately leads to Shirk.
New divinities like 'Communism', 'Capitalism' or 'Science' are put in the place of God and questioning is unheard of.
Imam Al-Ghazali knew for example that this would happen, so he refuted the philosophers in 'the incoherence of the philosophers' by saying
that one should adopt multiple ways to enrich the intellect.

You could say that the Muslim world adopted the way of Al-Ghazali and the western world
the way of Avicenna (who gave the Greek intellectual heritage to Europe by influencing Thomas Aquino which in turn lead to secularism).
So from the perspective of Islam: If one adopts the way of reason solely eventually he'll become an atheist or an agnostic.

The other way is the way of Imagination, which is especially the Tasbih (nearness to God) of the human mind.
Sufi's for example tend to support Tasbih more than Tanzih and when one goes into extremes, everything is holy.
Since everything has God's attributes.
There are those who just come up with a religion and those who change the original message of One God.

The Norse mythology is an example when the human being loses control of his imagination and just comes up gods, which is also a form of Shirk.
Hinduism is an example when Imagination just changes the original religion.
The Hindu scriptures and even Hindu's themselves believe in One God but they argue that God is everywhere, in other words they are only looking at Tasbih and denying Tanzih. They end up worshipping idols and human beings that have past away. The same dangers play in Islam, especially among extreme Sufis.
Who now argue that one can ask the Prophet for help instead of God, since the Prophet is the most perfect human being and he must have a connection to God.
The Kalam scholars obviously find this insane and express Tanzih more.

Tanzih = Servanthood
Tasbih = Vicegerency

The Muslim world is currently dominated by Kalam 'scholars' (theology) who nit-pick into everything and a minority of sufi's.
They have lost the big picture and usually are busy with refuting eachother and claiming that they have the truth.  
Most Muslims however that live today are expressing especially a form of Tanzih.
Islamic scholars in the present age  describe the relation between God and the human being as one of servanthood (tanzih), they are obsessed with theology (Kalam).
There are very few people who adopt all three fields of knowledge.

Revelation is the only way to keep Imagination (Tasbih) and Reason (Tanzih) in balance.
Scholars often say that the sun shines to let the eyes see, revelation shines to let Imagination & Reason see, see what their limits are.

I hope my post(s) helped that Islam is not the typical 'worship the Moon-God of war and kill all the unbelievers (by beheading)' as it is often portrayed in the media.

[Asmodean]

I hope my post(s) helped that Islam is not the typical 'worship the Moon-God of war and kill all unbelievers' as it is often portrayed in the media.

But then, of course, one could say that a religion is only as good as its worst follower... Kind of like a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Following that line of thought, Islam is pretty much worse than the "media-generated" example you provided.

[Davin]

The Norse mythology is an example when the human being loses control of his imagination and just comes up gods, which is also a form of Shirk.

How are my Nordic gods any different than yours? The answer: more awesome.

There is no attempt at reconciling a caring Wodin with a cruel world, because Wodin himself is not very kind. And what is the main way to get into the desired afterlife? Is it blind faith? No. Belief in Wodin or any other Norse god? No. All one needs to do to get in is to fight bravely and honorably. Even the desired afterlife of sex, drinking and fighting is much preferable to the Muslim or Christian afterlife.

[Too Few Lions]

The Norse mythology is an example when the human being loses control of his imagination and just comes up gods, which is also a form of Shirk.

How are my Nordic gods any different than yours? The answer: more awesome.

There is no attempt at reconciling a caring Wodin with a cruel world, because Wodin himself is not very kind. And what is the main way to get into the desired afterlife? Is it blind faith? No. Belief in Wodin or any other Norse god? No. All one needs to do to get in is to fight bravely and honorably. Even the desired afterlife of sex, drinking and fighting is much preferable to the Muslim or Christian afterlife.

Hear hear! Personally I think the Norse gods piss all over Allah, Yahweh or the Christian god!



ISok, while there are undoubtedly many tolerant Muslims, I've read the Qur'an and can totally understand how some Muslims might want to kill infidels based on the teachings in that book. My one overriding memory of the Qur'an is that it just constantly repeats that all believers will go to the Gardens of Paradise and all non-believers will burn in hell and have boiling water poured down their throats for all eternity, over and over again, hundreds of times in pretty much every sura. If I'm honest, it didn't seem to say a lot else!  It contains a lot of really nasty Dark Ages stuff like;

002.039 But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be Companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein.
003.151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers
004.101 For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
005.010 Those who reject faith and deny our signs will be companions of Hell-fire.
008.050 If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-
018.102 Do the Unbelievers think that they can take My servants as protectors besides Me? Verily We have prepared Hell for the Unbelievers for (their) entertainment.
021.098 Verily ye, (unbelievers), and the (false) gods that ye worship besides God, are (but) fuel for Hell! to it will ye (surely) come!
024.057 Never think thou that the Unbelievers are going to frustrate (God's Plan) on earth: their abode is the Fire,- and it is indeed an evil refuge!
033.064 Verily God has cursed the Unbelievers and prepared for them a Blazing Fire
035.036 But those who reject (God) - for them will be the Fire of Hell: No term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Penalty be lightened for them. Thus do We reward every ungrateful one!
047.015 (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell forever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?
048.013 And if any believe not in God and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject God, a Blazing Fire!
050.024 (The sentence will be:) "Throw, throw into Hell every contumacious Rejecter (of God)!-
098.006 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

Etc etc etc (yawn!)

As a Muslim, what do think will happen to all us non-Muslims on the 'Day of Judgement'? The Qur'an seems pretty unequivocal that we'll all burn and be tortured in hell for all eternity. Personally, I think anyone with the remotest level of humanity should question a religion that teaches such barbaric things.
With Islam, this teaching seems to be at the very core of the religion, the Qur'an is after all supposedly the direct word of your god. While you may talk about lots of other theological concepts such as tanzih and tasbih or Sufi teachings on love, these seem to me as an outsider to be later accretions to Islam influenced by Greek philosophy and other external sources, which are surely inferior to the direct word of your god?

[history_geek]

This talk about Norse gods and such reminds me of this:
The Saga of Biorn
Just as a side note

[Stevil]

NZ has got this great "Drama" TV show about the norse gods, called the almighty Johnsons

The Almighty Johnsons promo

[Asmodean]

while there are undoubtedly many tolerant Muslims

.., they are not doing enough to stop those other assholes from blowing up stuff in the name of their god. As long as that is the case, "Islam is a religion of peace" is a load of crap.

...Not that Christians are any better at all, really

EDIT: Oh! Forgot the jews. How did THAT happen..? Throw them in with the rest for  good measure.