Hi, not Atheist

[Whitney]

I'm of the opinion that if we get more intelligent as we are now, we will destroy ourselves.

I think the problem is that the number of intelligent humans is dwarfed by the number of idiots.  So when some scientist comes up with a cool toy that just happens to have the ability to be massively destructive (even though it also could be a great power source) our dumb leaders make it into a weapon.

So more intelligence would lessen the chance of us destroying ourselves.

[iSok]

I'm of the opinion that if we get more intelligent as we are now, we will destroy ourselves.

I think the problem is that the number of intelligent humans is dwarfed by the number of idiots.  So when some scientist comes up with a cool toy that just happens to have the ability to be massively destructive (even though it also could be a great power source) our dumb leaders make it into a weapon.

So more intelligence would lessen the chance of us destroying ourselves.

You sure have a point there. But I think there are intelligent human beings out there who still use weapons because they have a lust
for power, I think it's quite natural for us. I see the love for leadership as a huge problem for our world.

But I meant something different.
Let's say theoretically that there's no God and that our morals are formed by society and are also a part of our nature.

Have we reached the peak of human perfection?
Because the way I see it is that if we humans evolve to a next stage where we will have a higher form of analytical reasoning.
On a side note: I don't even know if that would make us more intelligent, what is intelligence exactly?

Let's that is analytical reasoning.
Will we then destroy ourselves voluntarily?
Right now for example, the extinction of the human race would be the best thing for our planet.
The only reason we are not doing it is because emotional plea's are holding us back.
'I don't want to die, it's scary'.

So if we advance, will we then realise that there's no point in living and destroying other realities if the very point of
life is to exist. Then if that's the only point, why should we sacrifice many at the cost of a few?
By existing we are destroying the point of existence, by being a threat to other species.
It seems that we are slowly understanding that it's not all about 'us' in the modern age, while witnessing the destruction
of nature. At the same time we do want to exist and continue our existence.

Will this balance eventually change?
So it would follow that in the end we will voluntarily end our existence for the sake of others.
Suppose there's life on Planet X, do we have the right to invade?


So I really do wonder if there are advanced species in the universe.
Maybe that other beings eventually found this out, that extreme intelligence is a voluntarily end. A cycle of nature.
One of the reasons why it seems futile for me to search for intelligence.

[Davin]

That is an odd line of reasoning.

I have no idea how the only reason we're not offing ourselves is because of emotional pleas. Could you explain how the emotional pleas are the only posible reason to not kill oneself.

How does one realize that there is no point in living? What is the reasoning that leads to this conclusion?

How does extreme intelligence lead to suicide?

I'm just wondering because I'm not following what you're saying.

[Whitney]

if we evolved to have higher reasoning skills we'd realize that we can live sustainably on the planet and that we can't take a smash and grab approach to harvesting resources...

Just because some people do stuff that harms the earth doesn't mean it is logical that all humans must destroy themselves lol; we didn't hurt anything back when we were tribal.

[iSok]

That is an odd line of reasoning.

I have no idea how the only reason we're not offing ourselves is because of emotional pleas. Could you explain how the emotional pleas are the only posible reason to not kill oneself.

How does one realize that there is no point in living? What is the reasoning that leads to this conclusion?

How does extreme intelligence lead to suicide?

I'm just wondering because I'm not following what you're saying.

This thought just popped into my head a few days ago, I'll try to explain.


1. Life has no purpose.
2. The only reason we want to exist is because of our instinct to survive. ( which I meant with emotional plea).
3. Existence is the only purpose, nothing else.

4. Analytical reasoning beings will no longer be ruled by instinct, which destroys point 2.
5. Point 3 will be taken into consideration.
6. Existence is the only purpose: Existence of the many or the existence of a few?
7. The few will end themselves for the many.

Point 6 is crucial because I think that if we advance more we can't tolerate other life to exist.
We will probably find a way to manipulate our environment without nature helping us.
Then we will invade other planets to introduce our 'system'.

if we evolved to have higher reasoning skills we'd realize that we can live sustainably on the planet and that we can't take a smash and grab approach to harvesting resources...

Just because some people do stuff that harms the earth doesn't mean it is logical that all humans must destroy themselves lol; we didn't hurt anything back when we were tribal.

Well the point is that when we were tribal we didn't do much harm to our planet.
Right now we do a lot of harm.

[Davin]

This thought just popped into my head a few days ago, I'll try to explain.

1. Life has no purpose.

I don't agree with this.

2. The only reason we want to exist is because of our instinct to survive. ( which I meant with emotional plea).

I think there are many other reasons people want to exist.

3. Existence is the only purpose, nothing else.

This conflicts with 1, because this would be a purpose that 1 said is not there. I also don't agree that that is the only purpose.

4. Analytical reasoning beings will no longer be ruled by instinct, which destroys point 2.

I'm not sure this will ever be the case and I've certainly seen more evidence to the contrary. Even as we become better analytical thinkers we don't lose all else.

5. Point 3 will be taken into consideration.

As shown earlier, point 3 conflicts with another premise.

6. Existence is the only purpose: Existence of the many or the existence of a few?

This conflicts with premise 1. If we're being hypothetical then there are many other posibilities than many vs. few.

7. The few will end themselves for the many.

This seems very much like it's missing a lot to connect from the provided premises.

Point 6 is crucial because I think that if we advance more we can't tolerate other life to exist.
We will probably find a way to manipulate our environment without nature helping us.
Then we will invade other planets to introduce our 'system'.

I'm not this way, I've met other people not this way, so I'm sure this is not the only way for humanity to progress.

You stated that you just recently thought about this and eluded to not putting too much thought into it, so if you don't know or haven't had enough time to clearly define and get all premises going, that is fine with me. Don't just throw in stuff to statisfy my objections, expecially if you're still busy with school.

[iSok]

This thought just popped into my head a few days ago, I'll try to explain.

1. Life has no purpose.

I don't agree with this.

2. The only reason we want to exist is because of our instinct to survive. ( which I meant with emotional plea).

I think there are many other reasons people want to exist.

3. Existence is the only purpose, nothing else.

This conflicts with 1, because this would be a purpose that 1 said is not there. I also don't agree that that is the only purpose.

4. Analytical reasoning beings will no longer be ruled by instinct, which destroys point 2.

I'm not sure this will ever be the case and I've certainly seen more evidence to the contrary. Even as we become better analytical thinkers we don't lose all else.

5. Point 3 will be taken into consideration.

As shown earlier, point 3 conflicts with another premise.

6. Existence is the only purpose: Existence of the many or the existence of a few?

This conflicts with premise 1. If we're being hypothetical then there are many other posibilities than many vs. few.

7. The few will end themselves for the many.

This seems very much like it's missing a lot to connect from the provided premises.

Point 6 is crucial because I think that if we advance more we can't tolerate other life to exist.
We will probably find a way to manipulate our environment without nature helping us.
Then we will invade other planets to introduce our 'system'.

I'm not this way, I've met other people not this way, so I'm sure this is not the only way for humanity to progress.

You stated that you just recently thought about this and eluded to not putting too much thought into it, so if you don't know or haven't had enough time to clearly define and get all premises going, that is fine with me. Don't just throw in stuff to statisfy my objections, expecially if you're still busy with school.

Yes it was a thought that I had a few days ago that just came up with no particulary reason.
So I don't even know whether I agree with this.

Could you however give a few more reasons for life than to experience and enjoy life?
Since you object to the very first point.

Davin, I'm honest in this question.
I'm not taking the approach of 'you don't believe in God, kill yourself'.
If I happen to disbelief, enjoying life would be the only reason (which is the main reason right now also though...)

[xSilverPhinx]

The most I can say is that we live our lives as if there were a purpose. On that topic I at least see people of all religions and lack of religions doing, the only thing being different is that some believe that there is an objective purpose even though they don't really know what it is.

I wouldn't put it so narrowly to say that unbelievers live life to enjoy life. Sure that's a huge part of it, but you make it sound as if in order to make sacrifices people necessarily have to be theists.

[Twentythree]

Much of what you are talking about as far as "higher form" and "advanced" and "perfection" are not concepts that sit well within an evolutionary perspective. Evolution is not a ladder or an inclined plane, it's more of a web, where life takes any rout that will ultimately lead to stability within the environment, between parasite and host and between competition for resources i.e. food. Intelligence in itself evolved as the ultimate form of adaptation, this gave early humans the opportunity to plan for and predict the future thus increasing our survival rate. That is how natural selection, selected intelligence. We are in constant pursuit both biologically and culturally for an environmentally stable strategy. For example, as intelligent as we are one of our greatest threats is disease. Disease has no intelligence whatsoever. If disease kills humans and humans are supposed to be advanced, who is really advanced, us or the disease. Who wins in the end? No one. That is the beauty and complexity of evolution, there are no winners, no losers, just a lucky few who were able to reside in a stable state longer than others.

If you have not heard of the Red Queen Hypothesis you should check it out. It is based on Alice and the Queen playing chess in the Louis Carroll story. Alice is trying to promote her rank of pawn by moving to the farthest square on the board, when the queen tells her that she must run as fast as she can just to remain in the same place.  This hypothesis posits the notion that evolution is just a constant arms race, a cold war of advancement and subversion. That with each perceived advancement there is an equally advanced subversion therefore you are really going nowhere. With each niche that is filled, there is opportunity for exploitation of another.

Here are a few interesting examples that I can see in our world today.

Development of automobiles means greater transportation efficiency and freedoms. Results in congested traffic conditions that often move slower than your average walking pace/damages air quality.
Computers offer a paperless way to store data. Results in stacks of servers instead of stacks of paper.
Agricultural advancements and factory farming brings affordable food to all. Results in obesity epidemic/environmental deterioration.

It's a constant give and take. Advancement is just an illusion.

[iSok]

The most I can say is that we live our lives as if there were a purpose. On that topic I at least see people of all religions and lack of religions doing, the only thing being different is that some believe that there is an objective purpose even though they don't really know what it is.

I wouldn't put it so narrowly to say that unbelievers live life to enjoy life. Sure that's a huge part of it, but you make it sound as if in order to make sacrifices people necessarily have to be theists.

I'm sorry if I meant it that way.
Making sacrifices has nothing to do with being a theist or atheist.

The only difference between me and an atheist is that I'm of the opinion that I should believe/surrender my consciousness to a Law (God)
since the universe is controlled and organised with the help of laws, then I don't see a point in just wandering around if
everything else has submitted including us for a large part (physical laws). An atheist might still have better morals.

We make sacrifices because it makes us happy.

For example a mother of two, with almost nothing to eat would rather give her children.
This will make her more happy than intaking the bit of food she has left.

Another mother would rather fill her stomach than filling the stomach of her children.
It'll make her more happy.


@Twentythree,

Thanks for you response and the food for thought.
I'll look into it.

[xSilverPhinx]

I'm sorry if I meant it that way.
Making sacrifices has nothing to do with being a theist or atheist.

The only difference between me and an atheist is that I'm of the opinion that I should believe/surrender my consciousness to a Law (God)
since the universe is controlled and organised with the help of laws, then I don't see a point in just wandering around if
everything else has submitted including us for a large part (physical laws). An atheist might still have better morals.

I think you grasp non religious perspectives better than most theists I've come across, who seem to think that there are only two possibilities: their way or some dark nihilism devoid of anything but the pointless thoughts of a purposeless organic mass simply living just for the sake of being alive.

But for better clarity, purpose is better split into two parts: purpose in a world without a god and objective purpose in a world where there is a god.

Do you see your belief in an objective purpose giver (god) influence how you see your life now here on Earth or does it have more to do with what you believe your afterlife would be like?

[Asmodean]

Asmodeon, Obviously life exists on other planets

It's not obvious, it's plausible. Obvious will enter the equasion once life is found outside Earth.

but intelligent life has never been proven.

Is there intelligent life on Earth then..? "Intelligent" is in the eye of the beholder.

Scientists haven't gotten far enough in the universe yet to find another Earth.

They have. Several Earth-like planets have been found.

Doesn't mean the universe isn't big enough to have another one, which is why I believe there is.

Had the original argument not been wrong, I'd call this point fair. Way to go, bike! Didn't think you were capable of fair points.

You say we are the proof that intelligent life exists on other planets, but how could that life exist without the same qualities of our planet?

Chemical properties of Si are in many crucial ways similar to those of C, so it could theoretically be used as the cornerstone element in living organisms. That said, who says life on other planets even has to be so much as remotely similar to that on this one..? I sure don't.

Human beings would not be sufficient evidence that there is another planet capable of having life like ours.

Nor are they sufficient to prove that there is intelligent life in the universe. We are, after all, self-proclaimed intelligent. And many people are about as intelligent as... Tomatoes, really...

However, the presense of Earth-like planets in the universe and the presense of life on this Earth-like planet combine to indirect evidence of life on other such planetss.

For future reference I'm in college which is why I have been busy lately but I think I can handle your linguistics.

Not without twisting words and reading between the lines though... But I suppose that comes from that religion thing you are into.

[iSok]

I think you grasp non religious perspectives better than most theists I've come across, who seem to think that there are only two possibilities: their way or some dark nihilism devoid of anything but the pointless thoughts of a purposeless organic mass simply living just for the sake of being alive.

I am certainly of the opinion that religious people might be happier than atheist or agnostics.
We simply don't want to end existing and continue life after death. I think this thought
gives a lot of comfort to most people, like I said to most people.
The atheist surely must think of this, that death is the absolute end of all.
That you are gone and you will never come back, I'm sure that in some way this must affect a person.

This doesn't mean that the atheist lives a dark and nihilism life, you can add purpose to it.
But once again, I'm sure of the opinion that man would be happier if there was a purpose
for life, even more if there was some form of life after death.

But for better clarity, purpose is better split into two parts: purpose in a world without a god and objective purpose in a world where there is a god.

Do you see your belief in an objective purpose giver (god) influence how you see your life now here on Earth or does it have more to do with what you believe your afterlife would be like?

It's an interesting question you ask here, I can't answer it without explaining what the view of Islam is on the human being. It'll also be a nice way to summarize what I read a couple of days ago.
It will be however an extremely long post and today is my final exam (I can smell freedom).
So if you are interested in this, I'll give an elaborate reply this afternoon probably.

[xSilverPhinx]

I am certainly of the opinion that religious people might be happier than atheist or agnostics.
We simply don't want to end existing and continue life after death. I think this thought
gives a lot of comfort to most people, like I said to most people.
The atheist surely must think of this, that death is the absolute end of all.
That you are gone and you will never come back, I'm sure that in some way this must affect a person.

This doesn't mean that the atheist lives a dark and nihilism life, you can add purpose to it.
But once again, I'm sure of the opinion that man would be happier if there was a purpose
for life, even more if there was some form of life after death.

If you're talking about existential angst, which is different from the fear of death, then I also think that atheists are more prone to it, before accepting that death in its totality is a part of life.

It's an interesting question you ask here, I can't answer it without explaining what the view of Islam is on the human being. It'll also be a nice way to summarize what I read a couple of days ago.
It will be however an extremely long post and today is my final exam (I can smell freedom).
So if you are interested in this, I'll give an elaborate reply this afternoon probably.

Sure, and good luck on your exam (I'm glad I don't have any of those anymore).

[iSok]

In Islam God has 99 sacred names in order for human beings to understand Him (The Most Merciful, The Avenger, The Loving, The Light and so on..).
God rules and sustains the universe with the aspects of Tanzih and Tasbih. Tanzih is declaring incomparability of God with other creatures.
Tasbih is affirming similarity with other creatures.

All names of God contain Tasbih and Tanzih, but some names are overruled with Tanzih and others are overruled with Tasbih. But this can be better explained in a graphic way


Tanzih: All worlds have the same center, but the center (God) has no dimension.
Creatures are distant from God because of God's incomparability.
(42:11 - Naught in the universe is like Him).



Tasbih: It symbolizes God's concern over other creatures in terms of kindness, mercy, compassion, and love.
Every creature is connected to the Center, it gains it's reality from the Center.



Tasbih & Tanzih together is Tawhid, declaring the Oneness of God. It's how God governs, sustains
and controls the universe in an organized way by preventing chaos.

The worst sin according to Islam is shirk, setting up rivals with God, this is destroying Tawhid and ultimately destroying the reality of others, because it causes chaos. You set up other centers within reality which causes the unreal to lose its connection to the Real. This doesn't have to be just idols you worship. I'll quote two Hadith (sayings of the Prophet).

The Prophet came out to us from his house while we were discussing the AntiChrist.
He said, 'Shall I tell you about something that is more frightening to me than the AntiChrist?'
The people replied that he should.
He said, 'Hidden Shirk, in other words, that a man should perform the salat (prayer)
and do it beautifully for the sake of someone who is watching.'


'The most frightening thing that I fear for my Community is associating others with God.
I do not mean to say that they will worship the sun, or the moon, or idols.
I mean that they will perform works for other than God with a hidden desire.

So the most important saying of a Muslim is 'La iLaha il Allah' = 'There is no god but God'.
It rejects all other gods, idols, desires and egocentric thoughts that human beings have come up with and it testifies of the Ultimate Reality.
It's usually said with the last breath before death.

'Allah Akbar' = 'God is Greater' is another example of this, which means that God is greater than all
other things that humans have come up with.  Ultimately the Qur'an describes heaven as a good place and hell as a bad place to be.
From an Islamic perspective the fire in hell is a response towards those who claimed greatness (pride) by which they destroyed other realities.
Fire also grows without considering its rampage on other realities.


The universe is controlled by laws, because of these laws there is order and no chaos.
Islam is of the opinion that one should submit to God, since everything else has already.
Not submitting is causing disorder; the universe is a sign for people to know that submission causes order.
One has to submit if there's enough evidence.

(2:12 - Beware! they do spread disorder but they realize it not.)

The human being consists of a soul a spirit and a body.  I won't go to deep into this.
The body has submitted, the soul and the spirit haven't yet. People should do this out of free will.
The down side is that they can make the wrong choice, but the good side is that the choice makes us more aware of reality.
Other creatures do not have this awareness.

If we take a look at the universe, everything has divine attributes of God, even minerals.
At the bottom there are minerals then there is microscopic life. They have certain divine attributes.
Next there are plants; they are for example 'Grateful' and 'Generous', when you give them enough water they'll give you fruit.
Then there are animals, at the final stage there is the human being.

The human being has all the divine attributes.
The whole cosmos with all it's divine attributes has been placed within the human being, the human being is the micro cosmos.
Some of us are dominated by Tanzih (bad people), others are dominated by Tasbih (good people).
The foremost are those who have balanced this and put everything in the right place, they are the prophets and the close friends of God.
We end up with people like Pol Plot (a mass murderer) and Bhuddah.
It's that Tanzih and Tasbih create this immense spectrum of human developing which cannot be found
among any other creatures since we have all the attributes that can be found in the Cosmos.
There's a cosmos (microcosmos) in each and every one of us that one has to dominate by Tasbih and preferably balance.

(2:143 - Thus, have We made of you an Ummat (community) justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves.)

So according to the Islamic perspective acknowledging God is acknowledging oneself. A famous proverb says: 'He who knows himself knows his Creator.'

Stimulating and achieving this balance is by practicing the five pillars of Islam.
Declaration of Tawhid, Prayer 5 times a day, Fasting during the month of Ramadan, Zakat (2,5% - 10% of yearly income to the poor) and Hajj (Pilgrimage to Mecca).

The Christians and the Jews say that Adam was made in God's image.
The Hindu's say that man's first parents were Mahadev and Parwati and they were made in the image of God.
This doesn't mean that God is an old man with a beard like we tend to see him in popular culture.
It means that the human being has all the attributes of God, like explained above.

The human being is the vicegerent of God according to Islam, he has to perfect the balance and put things in the right place within oneself.
A verse in the Qur'an explains that only the human being is able to carry this Trust of God.

(33:72 - We offered the Trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to carry it and were afraid of doing so; but man carried it. Surely he is wrong-doing, ignorant.)

The Heavens refused because they are the luminous, they are close to God and could not bear the Tanzih (distance of God) of that trust. The Earth refused because it could not bear the Tasbih (Nearness to God), the Earth is dominated by Tanzih. The mountains refused because they could not tolerate the extremes of either Tanzih or Tasbih. But the human being has accepted it.

(2:30 - Just recall the time when your Lord said to the angels, "I am going to appoint a vicegerent on the Earth." They humbly enquired, "Are you going to appoint such a one as will cause disorder and shed blood on the Earth? We are already engaged in hymning Your praise, and hallowing Your name".
(2:31 - God replied, "I know what you do not know." After this He taught Adam the names of all things. Then He set these before the angels and asked, "Tell Me the names of these things, if you are right (in thinking that the appointment of a vicegerent will cause disorder).

The names in this verse is generally seen as all the attributes of God.


During the centuries eventually Imam Al-Ghazali reduced all the attributes within the human to four entities. The four are the Sage, the Demon, the Pig and the Dog. It's clear what the sage and the demon do. Someone dominated by the Pig wants always more and more, his hunger is never satisfied. The Dog is aggressive when it's not trained but it's not evil like the Demon, sometimes it'll hurt it's owner. Every human being consists out of these four entities.

From an Islamic perspective, the reason that animals like the tiger are going extinct is because their attributes within the human being is disappearing. We are destroying our fitrah, the innate belief in a Creator. Destroying that is denying who we are and makes us heedless of our balance. Our inward reality is always manifesting in the outward reality. It's ultimately a violation of our vicegerency. And it generally makes us more pigs than human beings because we constantly want more and more.
You could say that the Pig is dominating in modern times, with our consumer culture.


It's not easy to summarize such a topic, I hope you gained a little bit of understanding, while I'm reading it back it is a bit hard to understand.
With the above in mind, I behave and see life in a very different way. My life revolves around the five times prayer.
Everything I do, I always tend to think 'why am I doing this?'. A while ago I gave here an example of morals.
Some people when they visit the grocery store, they tend to grab the best vegetables. But that makes them for a part demons and pigs while no one should act like that.

So in it's essence it really helps me to understand myself and why I do certain things.
If one does it well, you can eventually find heaven in your heart.
Heaven is nearness to God for me personally, I can achieve that also within this reality, without hoping for heaven.
Hopefully I've answered a part of your question about my objectives for existence and how I interact with reality.