Stigma of suicide?

[KDbeads]

I attended a funeral today for a friend's daughter who had committed suicide, she was severely depressed (had been for many years) and the meds/therapy weren't helping any.  My friend has been so bent out of shape over the 'ultimate fate' of her daughter that she has been sedated until today.  About halfway through the graveside part of the service one of her remaining daughters ended up having to slip a bit more sedative into her via a bottle of water due to her reaction to the whole thing.  There were even a few catholics in the crowd that openly questioned why there was even a funeral given by a pastor considering the nature of her death.

All of this caused me to look back at my upbringing in a religion were suicide was considered the ultimate selfish act and punishable in hell.  How this can cause so much pain to the family that remains and cause them to doubt their beliefs.  There was a discussion with a small group of women that I was included in where they were seriously saying that the bible had it wrong about mental illness and suicides!  Of course as always out here I just listen when religious topics come up, I only get involved when I hear errors etc....  But these women were questioning a major teaching.  Openly.  Out here in TX.

Now as what this means for my friend, I'm not sure she can recover.  "Knowing" her daughter is in hell is going to eat at her for the rest of her life.

So, why was suicide so vilified by the christian religion?  Even after depression was shown to be the main cause?  I don't get it.  I didn't get it growing up in the fundie church either.  It's a tragedy yes, but worthy of eternal damnation because your creator/god created you with a defect and you couldn't cope with the meager stuff he gave you?

[AnimatedDirt]

It's a tragedy yes, but worthy of eternal damnation because your creator/god created you with a defect and you couldn't cope with the meager stuff he gave you?

First of all...Atheists should understand that the Christian God did not create us "this" way.  Humanity was created perfectly.  It was sin entering in that has tainted the human and his/her soul.  The question may then be why God allowed sin...but that is a totally different subject.  I digress.

Suicide has never been a stigma to me and those that I am friends with that are Christians.  Sometimes our mind is not in the right place and we've been pulled away from our leaning onto Christ.  That is sin that does this.

To say that every person that has and/or will commit suicide goes to hell is to disregard their mental state and shows ignorance of their emotions and situation(s) that lead up to this type of tragedy.  I would more base their eternal place on the fruit of their LIFE as a whole and not on the last few days/months that lead to the suicide.  Suicide may be a sin, but only one of many...of which we all can be forgiven.

It is only short-sighted Christians that cringe at the eternal place of their friends or loved ones that go this tragic route.  I'm sure whatever the case may be, God, I believe, is fair.

In the Bible, I'm reminded of the story of Samson.  I'll have to look it up again and see how it might fit to give an answer.

[Davin]

First of all...Atheists should understand that the Christian God did not create us "this" way.  Humanity was created perfectly.  It was sin entering in that has tainted the human and his/her soul.  The question may then be why God allowed sin...but that is a totally different subject.  I digress.

It's difficult for anyone (including Christians), when there are so many different versions. Perhaps before telling another group of people what they should understand about your very large and very inconsistent group, your group should understand it first.

It is only short-sighted Christians that cringe at the eternal place of their friends or loved ones that go this tragic route.  I'm sure whatever the case may be, God, I believe, is fair.

Except in the case of people that cannot believe in anything without sufficient reasonable evidence, he's not too fair in that case.

In the Bible, I'm reminded of the story of Samson.  I'll have to look it up again and see how it might fit to give an answer.

Could just look at the story of Jesus. Jesus did the same thing as the dudes that commit suicide by police.

On general topic, I do not like stigmas in general. Sometimes suicide is not a tragedy and is the best outcome for someone. It's a very personal choice and may not be the right one for a great amount of people, however I feel that it's acceptable even in cases where a person is not physically suffering or facing a vegetable-like state. It's their body and mind, they get to do whatever they want with it so long as it doesn't unreasonably harm anyone else.

[The Magic Pudding]

The flock metaphor is commonly used for Christians.
Fat rulers or priests don't normally eat their peasants, but the peasants do feed them.
You don't want your peasants just jumping off a cliff, no that would be a loss of wealth.
The big shepherd in the sky says suicide is wrong, how very convenient.

[fester30]

Suicide being an unforgivable sin is originally a Catholic idea (as far as Christian traditions go).  If you kill yourself, it's murder.  Since it's not murder until you're dead, then murder is the last thing you do, leaving you no ability to confess your sins and receive forgiveness.  Therefore, you cannot be forgiven.  (There is also the thing about your body being a temple).  The Catholic church does this sort of thing.  They extrapolate philosophically about certain things.  Premarital sex is a sin because, according to the Catholic church, the penumbra of the scriptures says that when you have sexual intercourse, you are married in God's eyes.  If you have sex before marriage, and then wind up not getting married, and then marry other people, then you are committing adultery. 

[Whitney]

Theoretically...if a catholic person wanted to commit suicide could they take a lot of pills just before entering confession, confess,and then die with a clean slate?  Or would they still be in trouble (according to the catholic belief).  For the purpose of the question...assume that the situation doesn't create a case where authorities would intervene with life saving medical care.

[Tank]

How as what this means for my friend, I'm not sure she can recover.  "Knowing" her daughter is in hell is going to eat at her for the rest of her life.

I think the way that you need to approach this with your friend is as follows. Her daughter was not in her 'right mind' when she took her own life. She was deeply mentally ill with depression. If she had killed another person, rather than herself, she would have had mitigating circumstances; her mental condition. As suicide is considered 'self murder', as has been stated above, then her daughter would not have murdered herself but taken her life while 'insane', thus she had not 'self murdered' i.e. she did not commit suicide in the sense that would have sent her to hell. Rather she is finally at peace in the care of Jesus; forever.

I hope this approach will give your friend a place where she can survive the tragic death of her daughter.

[KDbeads]

First of all...Atheists should understand that the Christian God did not create us "this" way.  Humanity was created perfectly.  It was sin entering in that has tainted the human and his/her soul.  The question may then be why God allowed sin...but that is a totally different subject.  I digress.

It's difficult for anyone (including Christians), when there are so many different versions. Perhaps before telling another group of people what they should understand about your very large and very inconsistent group, your group should understand it first.

Exactly.  Out here they aren't that progressive.  It's all fire and brimstone sermons.  Think fundamental pentecostal.  I was taught something along the lines of you will never be given more than you can handle, mentally and physically, by your god.  So therefore to give up and use suicide as an escape from a living hell he has deemed you fit to handle would send you to hell.  No if's and's or but's.  No final review of the good things you accomplished.  It's the same as they are teaching in the churches out here.  This is what is being taught right now in many areas of the world.

But it's still not right to do this to a grieving family who are all on the edge of their emotional sanity because of what happened.  There is no compassion from the church on this matter, and they need it.  They are suffering horribly.  They need to have a shoulder to cry on not be given the cold shoulder by the very people that should be comforting them.  Imagine going to a funeral service in a church where the suicide of the poor girl in the coffin is described in DETAIL to a crowd of 100 people, WTF?  What good does that serve? 

Fire and brimstone I tell ya..........

[fester30]

Theoretically...if a catholic person wanted to commit suicide could they take a lot of pills just before entering confession, confess,and then die with a clean slate?  Or would they still be in trouble (according to the catholic belief).  For the purpose of the question...assume that the situation doesn't create a case where authorities would intervene with life saving medical care.

The way it was told to me by a priest, it's like if you shoot someone and they live for a few days, it's attempted murder until the moment they die... then it's murder.  If you try to kill yourself and then try to confess and seek forgiveness, then you have been forgiven for damaging the temple... but if you die, then that's murdering yourself.  You simply aren't able to ask for forgiveness for something before it happens.  "Please forgive me father for what I'm about to do" doesn't work.  I pointed out that it's asking for forgiveness for an act that already happened; it's just the consequences that haven't been fully realized.  Then he went into a couple more Bible verses on me and I wasn't prepared so I gave it up.