Life-Long Test or Trial

[fester30]

(I'm not here to change minds, I just try to explain the thought process of people of faith without using all the bible references or a holy-rollin' attitude... here goes..)

Trials: My mom called it "creative parenting". If we wandered off in the store after she told us not to, she would keep an eye on us from around a corner where we couldn't see her. Just about the time we realized mom wasn't chasing after us this time, and started to freak out a little because we didn't see her, she would "find" us...lesson learned. It wasn't punishment, though at the time it seemed like the end of the world; it was a way of letting us make our own decisions and learning from our own mistakes in new situations. (Not making excuses for why people lose loved ones or suffer tragedy, just explaining that people of faith believe trials are meant to grow from.)

Omnipresence: Omnipresence is supposed to imply that God is in a state of timelessness. The reason given for His knowing what we are going to do is that he's seen it already...not that he traveled through time and came back, but that time passes in a different manner than here (makes me think of Einstein's twin paradox).  Another way to look at it is to think of seeing a video of an erupting volcano. The volcano had to have erupted for there to be footage of it. The idea is that even though God knows how it will end, it still has to happen so that he can "view the footage". It's not that he's magically psychic, it's that the time it takes for him to view it happening is different than how we percive time to be. (That's why you'll hear some creationists say that the biblical "day" might have been longer, because religion grants that time doesn't actually matter in Heaven). This is one of those things I won't pretend it doesn't take faith to accept  

This is the problem with debating religion.  You don't get the same answer or point of view from two different people.  If God is in a state of timelessness, then he is atemporal.  Didn't another theist tell us that God and heaven are not atemporal on another thread?  You can't ask a question of theists if you want one concensus answer, but it is entertaining to see all the different ideas on what they think the Bible or Qur'an or other religious texts mean.

[iSok]

This is the problem with debating religion.  You don't get the same answer or point of view from two different people.  If God is in a state of timelessness, then he is atemporal.  Didn't another theist tell us that God and heaven are not atemporal on another thread?  You can't ask a question of theists if you want one concensus answer, but it is entertaining to see all the different ideas on what they think the Bible or Qur'an or other religious texts mean.

"To each community among you We have prescribed a Law and a way of life. If God had so willed He would have made you a single people, but His plan is to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which you differ."
[Qur'an 5:48]

[LegendarySandwich]

This is the problem with debating religion.  You don't get the same answer or point of view from two different people.  If God is in a state of timelessness, then he is atemporal.  Didn't another theist tell us that God and heaven are not atemporal on another thread?  You can't ask a question of theists if you want one concensus answer, but it is entertaining to see all the different ideas on what they think the Bible or Qur'an or other religious texts mean.

"To each community among you We have prescribed a Law and a way of life. If God had so willed He would have made you a single people, but His plan is to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which you differ."
[Qur'an 5:48]

Besides from annoying us with unnecessary formatting, what was the point of that?

[Davin]

This is the problem with debating religion.  You don't get the same answer or point of view from two different people.  If God is in a state of timelessness, then he is atemporal.  Didn't another theist tell us that God and heaven are not atemporal on another thread?  You can't ask a question of theists if you want one concensus answer, but it is entertaining to see all the different ideas on what they think the Bible or Qur'an or other religious texts mean.

"To each community among you We have prescribed a Law and a way of life. If God had so willed He would have made you a single people, but His plan is to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which you differ."
[Qur'an 5:48]

Besides from annoying us with unnecessary formatting, what was the point of that?

Looks like Christmas to me.

[iSok]

This is the problem with debating religion.  You don't get the same answer or point of view from two different people.  If God is in a state of timelessness, then he is atemporal.  Didn't another theist tell us that God and heaven are not atemporal on another thread?  You can't ask a question of theists if you want one concensus answer, but it is entertaining to see all the different ideas on what they think the Bible or Qur'an or other religious texts mean.

"To each community among you We have prescribed a Law and a way of life. If God had so willed He would have made you a single people, but His plan is to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which you differ."
[Qur'an 5:48]

Besides from annoying us with unnecessary formatting, what was the point of that?

Ls, let me explain. I hope I understand the point of atheism by now.


On what do you base your worldview? Probably science, science is the answer for the mystery of life according to your view.
So if that is the truth for you, then we might ask. Where are you going?

1. Is science going to create a perfect world with everyone being happy in the near future? 2. Is the end of goal science: immortality?

1. It's impossible, as I explained earlier. Man will never allow that, man finds happiness in giving and not taking. Both evolution and theology agree on this.
    Evil will always exist, man will always be a primitive animal with arrogance and ego. You can only eliminate evil by killing homo sapien sapien.

2. Is immortality ethical? I am terrified of eternal life in this reality. Sometimes I doubt about my faith. Because I find the concept of eternal life terrifying.
    This is the only thing that does not allow me to be a 100% theist. But then I understand that the concept of eternal life in another life can be very different than this one.
    If someone now wants me to grant immortality, I can assure you that I will never accept, I'm very happy with dying.
   
So what is your purpose of life Ls? Is it enjoying life? Then why are you so mocking religion? Why can't you let others enjoy life the way they want too?
Or are you against the so called religion that evil causes? If we take a look at what does man WITHOUT religion, it's far more sinister and terrifying.
The conflicts that were caused in 20th century, were they the product of religion or the sinister behaviour of man?
Tell me, did religion tell people to throw two bombs on a city causing cancer decades after, or was it man?
Did secular societies cause more violence or was it religion?

You consider yourself to be without purpose without reason, you just are here and that's it.
What are you offering me?
Join the club and mock others so my self-esteem will increase?

Take a very good at this forum. And compare the section of topics about religions with the other sections.
You'll see that 99% of the people here are atheists, but then again the sub-forum religion is by far one of the largest.
Larger than science. While science is your 'religion'.

Do you know why Ls? Because deep inside you are terrified that you might be wrong.
The only way you can confirm your idea's is by mocking at religion so your beliefs will be more confirmed.

Take a good look at this thread: http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6872
What other purpose does it have then mocking and confiming your beliefs?

In general; Everywhere on atheist forums is the section about religion the largest.

As you are an 'enlightened' atheist, I don't understand why you so spend so much time here wasting on this section (with 5? active theists on this forum).

Do you want to learn? If so, then why on a forum, go and read books.
Do you see it as humor? I can find better entertainment.

Or are you just about mocking religion?

I wanted to post this for quite some time. Can you answer?

[Stevil]

I hope I understand the point of atheism by now.

Atheism is really, really easy to understand. An Atheist does not have a belief in any gods.

Here is a potential conversation that might help illustrate
Theist "Take a look at our scripture, God/Allah/Bhudda/... is wonderful, Islam/Christianity/Judeoism/Mormon... is the way to living a fulfilled and virtuous life"
Atheist "Nice theory, do you have any proof?"
Theist "There is no proof, you must simply believe"
Atheist "I'm pretty comfortable not having a god"
Theist "The unbeliever will go to hell"
Atheist "yeah, yeah, surely if your god were loving and perfect I wouldn't be judged for not choosing to believe in something where I was given no proof or compelling reason to believe"
Atheist "Out of all the various god theories that are abound, how did you settle on your one?"
Theist "The Quran is poetic beyond mortal ability"
          "The Bible tells me that it is the Truth, There is one true God, Jesus died to save us all"
          "Bhudda reached enlightenment"
          ...
Atheist (Yawn), "Get back to me when you have some proof"
 

On what do you base your worldview? Probably science, science is the answer for the mystery of life according to your view.

I can't speak for LS or any other Atheist, but from my perspective, It is not science that makes me an Atheist, I am sure a person could be keen on Science and still be a theist. For me I am happy tagging things as "unknown".
E.G.
how did energy and matter come into existence? "unknown"
how did the big bang expansion begin? "unknown",
how did matter and energy develop a conscience state and become alive? "unknown".

I would like to know the answers, but don't feel that anyone has provided sufficient proof yet. I won't subscribe to an unfounded, unproven belief system, just to have arbitrary "answers" to these questions. I don't need the answers, life goes on without.

[Stevil]

I don't understand why you so spend so much time here wasting on this section (with 5? active theists on this forum).

Do you want to learn? If so, then why on a forum, go and read books.
Do you see it as humor? I can find better entertainment.

Or are you just about mocking religion?

I wanted to post this for quite some time. Can you answer?

I think this is a very good question.

For me I wanted to learn just a little about the bible, because I am keen to understand Christians. There are many Christians around in my society and hence I feel it is valuable to make an attempt at understanding them. I also want to understand why they struggle to understand the Atheists view point. I am also keen to understand Muslims too, I think there is too much conflict.
I have no interest in debunking religion but do explain my points of disbelieve so that the theist I am talking to can understand where I am coming from, potentially correct my understanding of their religion if I am off track.

[LegendarySandwich]

Ls, let me explain. I hope I understand the point of atheism by now.

"Point"?

On what do you base your worldview?

Not entirely sure.

Probably science,

Science is a big part, yes.

science is the answer for the mystery of life according to your view.

What's the "mystery of life"?

So if that is the truth for you, then we might ask. Where are you going?

The general trend throughout human history has been progressive. There's no reason not to extrapolate that trend.

1. Is science going to create a perfect world with everyone being happy in the near future?[/quote]
The near future? Most likely no. Sometime in the future? Most likely yes, from my perspective.

2. Is the end of goal science: immortality?

One of the goals, to me.

1. It's impossible, as I explained earlier. Man will never allow that, man finds happiness in giving and not taking. Both evolution and theology agree on this.
    Evil will always exist, man will always be a primitive animal with arrogance and ego. You can only eliminate evil by killing homo sapien sapien.

I disagree.

2. Is immortality ethical? I am terrified of eternal life in this reality. Sometimes I doubt about my faith. Because I find the concept of eternal life terrifying.
    This is the only thing that does not allow me to be a 100% theist. But then I understand that the concept of eternal life in another life can be very different than this one.
    If someone now wants me to grant immortality, I can assure you that I will never accept, I'm very happy with dying.

I think that if immortality was achieved, we'd find a way to be able to kill ourselves if we wanted to. If not, I'd still pick immortality for the hell of it.
   

So what is your purpose of life Ls?

Not sure.

Is it enjoying life?

That's part of it.

Then why are you so mocking religion?

Because it makes me happy, even if only a little bit.

Why can't you let others enjoy life the way they want too?

If you don't want to hear religion mocked, don't come to this site. It's that simple.

Or are you against the so called religion that evil causes?

Yep.

If we take a look at what does man WITHOUT religion, it's far more sinister and terrifying.
The conflicts that were caused in 20th century, were they the product of religion or the sinister behaviour of man?
Tell me, did religion tell people to throw two bombs on a city causing cancer decades after, or was it man?
Did secular societies cause more violence or was it religion?

Bad shit happens with religion, bad shit happens without religion. I happen to think that religion, and irrational thinking as a whole, is detrimental to the progression of society, but I don't think that if we suddenly eliminated all religion tomorrow the world would magically become a utopia.

You consider yourself to be without purpose without reason, you just are here and that's it.

Not true. My purpose is what I make of it. The reason I'm here is because my parents had sex.

What are you offering me?

Huh?

Join the club and mock others so my self-esteem will increase?

This site isn't linked to my self-esteem.

Take a very good at this forum. And compare the section of topics about religions with the other sections.
You'll see that 99% of the people here are atheists, but then again the sub-forum religion is by far one of the largest.

Yeah, so?

Larger than science. While science is your 'religion'.

That's because most of the topics in the science section are pretty boring, at least to me. And science is not my religion.

Do you know why Ls? Because deep inside you are terrified that you might be wrong.

Nope, not really. Maybe a small part of me is scared by the notion of going to hell, but a larger part of me is scared by the notion of radiation from Japan coming over and causing serious health concerns. What I concern myself with now is largely philosophy and politics, not religion/God.

The only way you can confirm your idea's is by mocking at religion so your beliefs will be more confirmed.

Nope.

Take a good look at this thread: http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6872
What other purpose does it have then mocking and confiming your beliefs?

I didn't post in that thread as I thought it sounded like a boring thing to do.

People of one group will always mock people of another group. Xbox users ridicule PS3 users; vegans ridicule omnivores; Christians ridicule Muslims. As long as it's good fun and it's not taken all too seriously, it's fine.

In general; Everywhere on atheist forums is the section about religion the largest.

Makes sense.

As you are an 'enlightened' atheist,

I wouldn't call myself that.

I don't understand why you so spend so much time here wasting on this section (with 5? active theists on this forum).

I don't really go here that often anymore. Lately I've been visiting less.

Do you want to learn? If so, then why on a forum, go and read books.

False dichotomy.

Do you see it as humor? I can find better entertainment.

False dichotomy.

Or are you just about mocking religion?

You do realize that not every single topic in the existence of the religion forum here is all about mocking religion, right?

I wanted to post this for quite some time. Can you answer?

I think I've given good enough answers. If you want me to elaborate anywhere, I can.

[iSok]

Ls....

I don't see any useful answer in your reply, nor do I understand any of your points....
Can't you post a proper reply instead of nit picking on each of my points...? Or do you see it
as a sport? You want immortality, you think a perfect world is possible without giving proper arguments....
you just 'I disagree'.

On a side note: If you erase religion from the world, you will create a living hell. You have no idea how dangerous, primitive and sinister man really is.
There are many, many people that do not rape/rob/murder people because they are afraid that they will be punished.
A friend of my went to Nepal. He could sleep on the street while his wallet was visible, but no one would dare to touch him.
There they believe in Karma, what you give, you will receive. Take this away and everything will change.
Religion is like a chain for madness, if you release the chains you will unleash hell..you have no idea Ls..

     
@Stevil, many of my friends are exactly like you. They are looking for the truth and raise questions constantly. I often argue with them
in a nice manner. But I was talking about insecure militant atheists who mock religion just to confirm their beliefs.

[Whitney]

Ls, let me explain. I hope I understand the point of atheism by now.

There is no point...atheists just don't believe in a god.  Any points, beliefs, etc that an atheist has are in addition to their having an atheist stance.

Take a good look at this thread: http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6872
What other purpose does it have then mocking and confiming your beliefs?

In general; Everywhere on atheist forums is the section about religion the largest.

Making assumptions about people based on how many types of threads exist on a forum is...well...inaccurate.

A good portion of posts in the religion section are from post and run theists.  Another good portion of them are from actual discussions with theists who stuck around for a bit.  And almost all of the rest of them are from people who either never were religious who have questions about religion or by people who have been hurt by religion and therefore want to make arguments against it.  Very very few of the posts in that area are anything like the one you quoted as an example of LS's behavior (and I'll add that a quick scan didn't show him having participated in that thread nor did most of the regular HAF members).

I think you are still having problems seeing past your preconceptions...it's clouding your vision.

[Whitney]

Ls....

I don't see any useful answer in your reply, nor do I understand any of your points....
Can't you post a proper reply instead of nit picking on each of my points...? Or do you see it
as a sport? You want immortality, you think a perfect world is possible without giving proper arguments....
you just 'I disagree'.

He responded to your post honestly.  If you consider his honest responses to be mockery then that's not his problem.

[LegendarySandwich]

Ls....

I don't see any useful answer in your reply, without nor do I understand any of your points....

What's not to understand? All of my answers are straightforward and concise.

Can't you post a proper reply instead of nit picking on each of my points...?

"Proper reply"? I thought that dissecting posts in order to reply to several points/statements/questions was the proper way of replying. In any case, I find it easier, and it lets me know that I've responded to everything in a post.

Or do you see it as a sport?

Debating in general is a sport. A useful sport.

You want immortality,

Surprisingly, most people I've come across say they don't want immortality. I would have thought the opposite, but, eh.

you think a perfect world is possible without giving proper arguments....
you just 'I disagree'.

If you'll look back at your post you'll note that you didn't give any arguments either; you just asserted things. How else am I supposed to reply to claims like those other than "I disagree"?

On a side note: If you erase religion from the world, you will create a living hell.

I don't think that will happen. Look at places like Sweden, where atheism is relatively common. Is it a living hell there?

You have no idea how dangerous, primitive and sinister man really is.

I like to think I understand that pretty well.

There are many, many people that do not rape/rob/murder people because they are afraid that they will be punished.

As far as I'm aware, police and prisons still exist. In any case, it's a bit more complex than "I don't want to get in trouble; therefore, I won't do this".

A friend of my went to Nepal. He could sleep on the street while his wallet was visible, but no one would dare to touch him.
There they believe in Karma, what you give, you will receive. Take this away and everything will change.

The concept of karma doesn't necessarily have to be religious in nature. It makes sense in a secular perspective.

Religion is like a chain for madness, if you release the chains you will unleash hell..you have no idea Ls..

So, everyone is on the brink of becoming horrible people who commit all sorts of crimes, and religion is the only thing holding them back? Somehow I doubt that.

     

But I was talking about insecure militant atheists who mock religion just to confirm their beliefs.

I think you're talking about me here.

[AreEl]

LegendarySandwich, you said:

No. That's not the point.

If it is not the point, then what are you talking about? As for me, I was answering this:

I was discussing about the purpose of life with a muslim friend of mine. I asked him a question but I didn't get a proper answer.

This life is supposed to be a test or trial. Trial set by an all-knowing and all-powerful god. Now at this point, it all stops making sense . As God is all-knowing, she already knows the result of such a trial. So why run it in the first place?

The emphasis is mine, not DirtyLeo's.  All I'm saying is that the Bible never says that ''Life is a trial''. Never, ever, period. The Bible says that individuals will experience trials* that serve to strengthen a believer's faith and bring him closer to God. That's it...there is nothing more.  I'm also saying that the axiom that ''Life is hard'' is nothing more than popular wisdom. There is nothing biblical about it. Christians, atheists, agnostics and UFO pilots may think that ''Life is a trial'' but that doesn't make it biblical. Get it?

The Bible is Christianity's only source for insight into the mind of God.  If the Bible doesn't say or infer that ''Life is a trial'' then anybody - Christian or other - is wrong if they affirm that it does. That's my point.


(*implicitly, trials are temporary events.)

[LegendarySandwich]

^(look above you)

The point is is that that is your interpretation of the bible. It can have more evidence backing it up than other interpretations and be more rational, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still an opinion.

[AreEl]

^(look above you)

The point is is that that is your interpretation of the bible. It can have more evidence backing it up than other interpretations and be more rational, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still an opinion.

You are wrong. Dead wrong. If something isn't in the Bible, it isn't there. If it isn't there, it...isn't there. I can't blame an atheist of being ignorant of the Bible for that goes with the territory; but your apparent inability to reason surprises me!

But, then,  you seem smart enough. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you want to win what you perceive is a debate.