Mere Christianity

[AnimatedDirt]

Perhaps someone at some point thought it would be a good idea to claim he was the Messiah because they liked his message and wanted it to spread.

Have you looked at the prophecies and who were the holders/writers/believers in these prophecies?  Have you then noticed who were against Jesus in the NT?  Who pushed for His death?  This information is readily available.

My main point is that we don't have to assume Jesus was a Liar or Lunatic in order to not accept him as Lord.

If He isn't who/what He claimed to be, what then is He?  Think of it as I mentioned to LS, what are your immediate thoughts of a person that makes such claims to you on the street?  I live in L.A. so there are many that do similar when walking about downtown, specifically on Skid Row.  I ask, because I know what I think the moment they open their mouths to utter such words.  If you want to stick around for their proof, what then would be proof that would convince you of their supposed divinity?  I've asked this of a few here at HAF and no one really has an answer.  It seems Atheism knows how to find scientific proof, but is a bit vague on what would be convincing proof if the Abrahamic God was standing in front of you giving you the opportunity.

[hismikeness]

I've asked this of a few here at HAF and no one really has an answer. It seems Atheism knows how to find scientific proof, but is a bit vague on what would be convincing proof if the Abrahamic God was standing in front of you giving you the opportunity.

I would want to see him create a sauropod right in front of me. That's it.

What would it take for people 2,000+ years ago to believe it? About the same as it takes for people today to believe it... not too much and/or word of mouth accounts. For me, just a sauropod. But God doesn't present himself or his proof this way, and even to the people he was intending to talk to, it was through things like burning piles of yardwork or toast. These things will convince people. Statues bleeding, yada yada.

But who am I that I require such extraordinary proof? He's God, he could do it if he wanted. But, even when I was younger, he could have answered my prayers for, say, my back to not hurt as much, or younger still, "that awesome lego set", but he didn't (and that really would have been proof enough), so that being is ill deserving of my adoration as God.

I could be swayed by a created sauropod.

[dloubet]

The Jesus character, if he existed, was a lunatic or a liar. Just like Jim Jones, L. Ron Hubbard, or Mr. Applewhite.

And when a Japanese person accidentally hits their thumb with a hammer, I suspect they don't yell "Jesus Christ!", but rather, like everyone else, something more culturally appropriate.

[LegendarySandwich]

From the beginning of what?

The writing of the story...?

[LegendarySandwich]

If He isn't who/what He claimed to be, what then is He?  Think of it as I mentioned to LS, what are your immediate thoughts of a person that makes such claims to you on the street?  I live in L.A. so there are many that do similar when walking about downtown, specifically on Skid Row.  I ask, because I know what I think the moment they open their mouths to utter such words.  If you want to stick around for their proof, what then would be proof that would convince you of their supposed divinity?  I've asked this of a few here at HAF and no one really has an answer.  It seems Atheism knows how to find scientific proof, but is a bit vague on what would be convincing proof if the Abrahamic God was standing in front of you giving you the opportunity.

Something extraordinary.

[Stevil]

I've asked this of a few here at HAF and no one really has an answer. It seems Atheism knows how to find scientific proof, but is a bit vague on what would be convincing proof if the Abrahamic God was standing in front of you giving you the opportunity.

Create a rock so big that even he can't lift it.

Well, actually that would only disprove that the creature I am talking to isn't omnipotent. Even if it could do amazing things it would only prove that it is a creature that can do amazing things, not necessarily the God as described in the bible. Didn't it once kill a whole bunch of Egyptians to prove itself. I would be more impressed if it could unkill those Egyptians, and possibly unkill all those people and animals and plants that died in that flood that it chose to drown the world with.

I would actually be pretty impressed if it brought back Ronnie James Dio, Darrol Abott, Cliff Burton and got them to join a cured Jason Becker and a cured Clive Burr to create an awsomely inspired Metal album.

[Davin]

I've asked this of a few here at HAF and no one really has an answer. It seems Atheism knows how to find scientific proof, but is a bit vague on what would be convincing proof if the Abrahamic God was standing in front of you giving you the opportunity.

Create a rock so big that even he can't lift it.

Well, actually that would only disprove that the creature I am talking to isn't omnipotent. Even if it could do amazing things it would only prove that it is a creature that can do amazing things, not necessarily the God as described in the bible. Didn't it once kill a whole bunch of Egyptians to prove itself. I would be more impressed if it could unkill those Egyptians, and possibly unkill all those people and animals and plants that died in that flood that it chose to drown the world with.

I would actually be pretty impressed if it brought back Ronnie James Dio, Darrol Abott, Cliff Burton and got them to join a cured Jason Becker and a cured Clive Burr to create an awsomely inspired Metal album.

It would also be pretty impressive if someone on multiple occasions said they were going to pray to the god of Abraham to do certain things and the things actually happened, things like:
AIDS/HIV gone entirely. Everyone who has it no longer has it and no one ever gets it again.
Cancer completely eliminated never to happen again.
People growing their limbs back.
No more birth defects.

If that happened, that would be something to consider that would be undeniable. However the power of god seems to suspiciously weaken as human understanding of nature and our technology improves.

[AnimatedDirt]

If that happened, that would be something to consider that would be undeniable. However the power of god seems to suspiciously weaken as human understanding of nature and our technology improves.

The heavy rock, diseases gone, limbs growing back...See even these "amazing" things are not enough.  No one can even mention one thing God, if in your presence and at your mercy to do what you wish for proof, could do in your presence to prove Himself.  Instead, you all resort to rediculous things that are logically impossible so that you all can giggle and "high-five" each other.  "Something extraordinary"?  Name it.

There are many things that God cannot do.  He cannot tell lies, He cannot save anyone that doesn't wish to be saved, He cannot force love, to name a few.  Omnipotence is not the ability to do ANYTHING, it is the ability to do anything one wishes.  You wish, with a finite mind, to eradicate disease, bring back dead, perfect justice, a perfect utopian existence...and you call yourselves "Atheists"...you sound more like believers than disbelievers.

All the raising of the dead will be done, however the reunion bands and band member mixing will not.  When that miracle is realized, it will be too late, should that be what changes your mind.

[wildfire_emissary]

There are many things that God cannot do.  He cannot tell lies, He cannot save anyone that doesn't wish to be saved, He cannot force love, to name a few.  Omnipotence is not the ability to do ANYTHING, it is the ability to do anything one wishes.  You wish, with a finite mind, to eradicate disease, bring back dead, perfect justice, a perfect utopian existence...and you call yourselves "Atheists"...you sound more like believers than disbelievers.

And how did you know this?

[LegendarySandwich]

blah blah blah

Okay. That's nice.

[Whitney]

My main point is that we don't have to assume Jesus was a Liar or Lunatic in order to not accept him as Lord.

If He isn't who/what He claimed to be, what then is He?

I thought I already said the 4th option is that the accounts of his life are a tall tale...this would mean that Jesus the person was not a Lord Liar or Lunatic.  This whole conversation originated as a way to show why that proof of Jesus's divinity is not a very good one...it leaves out an obvious 4th option and that 4th option leaves more room for doubt than just assuming he was crazy yet people followed him anyway (though obviously people do follow power hungry liars...so I wouldn't have problems with liar as an option either; just don't think that is the most likely reason for the biblical accounts).

If you want to stick around for their proof, what then would be proof that would convince you of their supposed divinity?  I've asked this of a few here at HAF and no one really has an answer.  It seems Atheism knows how to find scientific proof, but is a bit vague on what would be convincing proof if the Abrahamic God was standing in front of you giving you the opportunity.

There is an empty cage in the creationist museum which I would like to see filled with a new species with (the 10 commandments and reference to the true church inscribed within the fur/feather pattern) directly in front of james randi, Banachek, and Michael Shermer as have just been given a tour and shown that the cage is really a locked cage with no tricks and are then immediately allowed to conduct a full investigation to make sure no trap doors or other tricks were used. I think this would convince most skeptics yet leave room for having to take a small leap of faith which so many Christians think is important to accepting God.

[Whitney]

blah blah blah

Okay. That's nice.

^warning 2

[hismikeness]

"Something extraordinary"?  Name it.

I don't know man, I think that sauropod would be pretty extraordinary. Also, when I was 8, I would have accepted that Lego set as extraordinary, but nooooooo.  

There are many things that God cannot do.  He cannot tell lies, He cannot save anyone that doesn't wish to be saved, He cannot force love, to name a few.

How do you know this? Is this based off of the Bruce Almighty/Morgan Freeman version of God?

[ForTheLoveOfAll]

There are many things that God cannot do.  He cannot tell lies, He cannot save anyone that doesn't wish to be saved, He cannot force love, to name a few.

If that's the case, then He is not really omnipotent. Either He can and wont, or can't and isn't omnipotent, and therefore isn't god. (Or much of a god, at least.)

I know, I know. He's holy, and therefore cannot do such unjust/immoral things.

Hasn't stopped him from doing quite a few other nasty actions in the scriptures.

[Davin]

If that happened, that would be something to consider that would be undeniable. However the power of god seems to suspiciously weaken as human understanding of nature and our technology improves.

The heavy rock, diseases gone, limbs growing back...See even these "amazing" things are not enough.  No one can even mention one thing God, if in your presence and at your mercy to do what you wish for proof, could do in your presence to prove Himself.  Instead, you all resort to rediculous things that are logically impossible so that you all can giggle and "high-five" each other.  "Something extraordinary"?  Name it.

Doesn't sound that ridiculous to me, did not Jesus heal lepers? Didn't Jesus raise people from the dead? Didn't Jesus feed the masses? If you think those kinds of things are ridiculous, then you must think Jesus was pretty ridiculous as well. The things I mentioned were not logically impossible, and I have a high degree of confidence in science to solve the problems as it has solved a great amount of problems already.

Already we have spray on skin that comes from the persons own stem cells in just over an hour.
We are almost growing lungs to use for a transplant.
Making the blind see. Or the Geordi La Forge version.
We've already cured many diseases and birth defects.

While the things I mentioned may not be a miraculous over night thing, they are not logically impossible, one day we may wake up and see one of those things has been achieved. And all the while god seems to have left the "miracles" to be accomplished by man.

There are many things that God cannot do.  He cannot tell lies, He cannot save anyone that doesn't wish to be saved, He cannot force love, to name a few.  Omnipotence is not the ability to do ANYTHING, it is the ability to do anything one wishes.  You wish, with a finite mind, to eradicate disease, bring back dead, perfect justice, a perfect utopian existence...and you call yourselves "Atheists"...you sound more like believers than disbelievers.

The point was that the amount of things god does decreases as man begins to understand how things are done. I was just mentioning the kinds of things that could be used as evidence for the god of Abraham, not things I believe in, because I don't believe anything.

Eradicating disease will take a long time and a lot of effort but it is possible as has been proven by eradicating many diseases already. Bringing back the dead seems pointless to me as I don't want to be brought back from the dead, I also think that no matter how good a copy of me it is, it will not be me. Perfect justice I don't think is even possible, along with a perfect utopia.

And for the record: an atheist can believe anything, as long as they don't believe in any god or gods. This kind of dig at "Atheists" is not very effective.

All the raising of the dead will be done, however the reunion bands and band member mixing will not.  When that miracle is realized, it will be too late, should that be what changes your mind.

I won't take your word for that. The concept of a god not providing reasonable evidence for its existence until the point it's too late is nothing short of useless.