The Futile Arguments Thread

[elliebean]

Loophole: As long as God doesn't create a rock so big he can't lift it, he remains omnipotent; he just has to be really careful about what he creates, or he will go poof!

[LegendarySandwich]

Forget paradoxes (as pointed out with a and b, there are ways to get around it), how about things that are complete nonsense?

What about a god who had to sacrifice himself to himself in order to save you from himself?

[youtube:1y15izyc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ8hefESt7c[/youtube:1y15izyc]

There are ways to get around paradoxes/contradictions, but they're bullshit rationalizations. Sadly, absurdities aren't proof that God doesn't exist.  

[defendor]

I don't feel like quoting on this post

You are going to have to lose the image of God that he is simply an old man in the clouds (He is not Zeus) and that heaven is a place where we play on harps and sing hymns all day.  

The question you asked about the rock paradox, is logically irrelevant. You are asking questions about eternity and infinite capabilities by the most finite example.
But I will answer this question "Can God create a rock he can't move?"  Yes he can, then he can move it, so No, but we're assuming that Jesus is the Rock right?

As to the question of evil, you asked, I gave an answer. If it works for me, why are you so hostile to my subjective view of reality?

God gave us free will because there is no such thing as Love without free will.  Love without free will is rape and God is not some divine rapist.  So with free will to do good that god designed, is also to warp good.  So I have a question of evil for you (it's essentially one in the same but I'll live little room for confusion)  

What basis do you claim there is evil?  how do you differentiate the difference between Good and Evil?  By what measuring stick is Good and Evil constructed?


This is in response to the misinterpretations of the nature of God-

I'll make this claim, God is just and unjust.  He is not in-just.  God would be completely just by killing me, for my crimes are eternally worthy of death.  But his Grace is not just. It is not injustice either. It is unwarranted. I do not deserve his Grace.  I deserve his justice.  But he excuses his justice through the sacrifice of His Grace(Jesus).  God doesn't save me from himself, he saves me from myself.  A murderer is deserving of death, this is justice.  But if someone were to take his punishment of death so that the murderer could change his ways (repent), he would live in light of this sacrifice and turn from his ways.  He would receive un-justice, not injustice.  This is Grace.

[elliebean]

word salad

We get it, you toss out logic as relevant to the discussion so you can never lose an argument. Yawn.

You know, I used the exact same argument you just did when I was ten, and I knew then it was the stupidest thing I'd ever said, but it got me out of being further quizzed by my dad on the subject of [strike:3vocxge9]my ability to lie to myself[/strike:3vocxge9] faith.

[Thumpalumpacus]

So many people on here in different threads have said believing in God is stupid and nonfactual. My question to you is how is not believing in a God factual? You can't prove that God didn't exist can you? I'm not saying I can prove that he does exist. Practice what you preach atheists. Goodbye.

I can prove I have no faith.  Why do you feel the need to poke around in my business?

After all, even if you're right, this is between me and god.  Butt the hell out.  I'll ask when I want advice.  Probably not you, judging from your posting style.

[Event_Horizon]

The question you asked about the rock paradox, is logically irrelevant. You are asking questions about eternity and infinite capabilities by the most finite example.

It helps break down complex ideas into simpler ones that are easier to grasp. Analogies are also helpful for this. Yes it's a simplification, but it does the job it's required to do.

But I will answer this question "Can God create a rock he can't move?"  Yes he can, then he can move it, so No, but we're assuming that Jesus is the Rock right?

If God cannot create an immovable object, then he is not all powerful. If he can create an immovable object, then he is not all powerful because he cannot move it. Both scenarios cannot be correct at the same time. That particular definition is therefore logically impossible. So going back to the question of this entire thread, not only can you completely disprove a definition of God, but there is also no evidence for such a God.

God gave us free will because there is no such thing as Love without free will.  Love without free will is rape and God is not some divine rapist.

Free will is also impossible with an all knowing God. If God can see into the future, and cannot be wrong (because he is infallible) then you cannot prove God wrong by making an action he didn't see. Because God can see the action before you do it, and he can't be wrong, the action WILL take place. You cannot chose another path/action/decision, meaning you have no free will. Once again the theist is met with another logical impossibility. Either God is all knowing, and we follow his vision like puppets on strings because we cannot prove him wrong, or God is not all knowing and we have the free will to choose for ourselves.

[Stevil]

Love without free will is rape and God is not some divine rapist.

The character Mary from the Bible would disagree with this statement.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Love without free will is rape and God is not some divine rapist.

The character Mary from the Bible would disagree with this statement.

[LegendarySandwich]

Love without free will is rape and God is not some divine rapist.

The character Mary from the Bible would disagree with this statement.

Lol. I was going to make that joke, but you beat me to it.

[defendor]

There still seems to be a question of the all-knowing aspect of God seeing into the future, I feel that I adequately gave position for this understanding earlier but I will gladly reiterate.

God is outside of time, He does not "see into the Future", he is the future.  Everything is seen as present to him.  We as humans cannot understand this due to us living inside the confines of time. There is Free will in the present, for God is also in the present.  So in every sequence of time we live in the present time with God.  SO to say that when God 'sees to the future' is a complete fallacy to the nature of God, for he is in the future as presently as he is present in the present time.  

Logical fallacy of the rock paradox.  There is no logical dissertation of this. The fundamental premise of this question is completely ridiculous.  There is no logical way you can ascribe credence to this question as revealing the nature or character of God in the fullness.   You have found a gross oversimplification and made a hasty claim to it (Is this what we call straw man arguments....?)This is like saying that since God is all-powerful He can be not all-powerful. Obviously, this is absurd. An all-powerful being cannot fail. Therefore, God can create a rock of tremendous size, but, since He is all-powerful, He will always be able to lift it. The ability to fail is not a part of omnipotence.

But, there are a few things the Bible claims he cannot do, for instance: Sin

[Davin]

There still seems to be a question of the all-knowing aspect of God seeing into the future, I feel that I adequately gave position for this understanding earlier but I will gladly reiterate.

God is outside of time, He does not "see into the Future", he is the future.  Everything is seen as present to him.  We as humans cannot understand this due to us living inside the confines of time. There is Free will in the present, for God is also in the present.  So in every sequence of time we live in the present time with God.  SO to say that when God 'sees to the future' is a complete fallacy to the nature of God, for he is in the future as presently as he is present in the present time.

This doesn't solve your problem of god knowing what's going to happen, so effectively you've already done it and can't do anything else.

Logical fallacy of the rock paradox.  There is no logical dissertation of this. The fundamental premise of this question is completely ridiculous.  There is no logical way you can ascribe credence to this question as revealing the nature or character of God in the fullness.   You have found a gross oversimplification and made a hasty claim to it (Is this what we call straw man arguments....?)This is like saying that since God is all-powerful He can be not all-powerful. Obviously, this is absurd. An all-powerful being cannot fail. Therefore, God can create a rock of tremendous size, but, since He is all-powerful, He will always be able to lift it. The ability to fail is not a part of omnipotence.

Then he failed to make a rock so big he can't lift it if he lifted it. The paradox is that whether god can lift it or not, he fails.

But, there are a few things the Bible claims he cannot do, for instance: Sin

But he did do things that he said were sins.

[defendor]

God knows what we're going to do for it is present in the future.  He sees what we do in the future as present.  SO in the past (according to the future, its present) he knows beforehand in relation to our perception of time, not his, so this is the paradigm of God's perception of the universe, being outside of time, versus our perception of reality inside of time.  Also, just as God knows what you're gonna do, doesn't mean he made you do it.

So asking "Can God create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?" is just as much nonsense as asking "Can God draw a square circle?" The logical contradiction here being God's simultaneous ability and disability in lifting the rock (the statement "God can lift this rock" must have a truth value of either true or false, it cannot possess both). Therefore the question (and therefore the perceived paradox) is meaningless. Nonsense does not suddenly acquire sense and meaning with the addition of the two words, "God can" before it.

What does God do that's labelled as sin?

[Stevil]

God knows ...

Please explain how you know what your god knows?

[Stevil]

But, there are a few things the Bible claims he cannot do, for instance: Sin

It seems that Sin only applies to Christians.
I cannot Sin and neither can the mythical Yhwh.

However I have never raped a woman, nor have I killed a bunch of Egyptians, nor have I drowned almost the entire population of the world, nor have I asked a father to kill his son, nor have I tricked my children into eating an apple then punished them severly for it, nor have I ...

Why do I feel a whole lot more loving, more compasionate, more forgiving, more tolerant than the almighty "himself"

[Thumpalumpacus]

Love without free will is rape and God is not some divine rapist.

The character Mary from the Bible would disagree with this statement.

Lol. I was going to make that joke, but you beat me to it.

Take a number and stand in line, that was the first thing I thought when I read that little piece of ... nonsense.