Ever had a discussion with a Christian who tells you that you are taking stories from the bible "out of context".
You might cite passages where god slaughters humans in imaginative and interesting ways e.g. setting two she bears onto children or flooding the earth etc. It is not hard to find such references in the Christian god's own inspired, perfect book.
The Christian will state that you need to take the action or passage "in context" with the whole book.
So you might be wondering to yourself how can murdering children for something as trivial as calling a bald man names be put into context? How can this be possible? Is the person I am having discussions with completely mad?
For an atheist the flood story, where the earth was intentionally flooded in order to kill almost everyone, would be a much greater "evil" act than the atrocities dished out by Hitler's Nazi regime. Would you entertain the thought, if a person told you that you were taking the Holocaust out of context and that you ought to read Mein Kampf in order to understand how perfect and loving Hitler was? That Hitler is love and that the killing of Jews was perfectly justified and perfectly necessary.
I have no doubt that if I read the bible end to end that I will find myself, highlighter in hand, marking out all the atrocities, the contradictions, the "evil" actions carried out by the "evil Christian god, his "evil" army of angels and his "evil" earthly Christian companions (Abram, Moses, Jesus etc)
How can I know this? How can I know that reading the bible would not put the Christian god's plan perfectly into context for me. The key to me is reading posts made by the likes of Gawen, TheJackle, Kevin Crady etc. These people appear to know the bible inside out. They have read it and obviously have taken a great deal of time to study it and understand it. They are all self professed ex-warriors of God. And yet, they see the bible and its atrocities, contradictions, "evil" actions carried out by the "evil Christian god, his "evil" army of angels and his "evil" earthly Christian companions.
But I am sure a Christian would make out that these people are not reading the Bible in the correct context.
The correct context of course is that God is perfect and all loving and that humans are flawed and limited.
If read in that context then you are properly understanding the bible correctly.
The all perfect and loving god set two she bears upon 42 children because that was the perfect and loving thing to do. It truly was. It is unfortunate that the bible doesn't go on to show how this was a perfect and loving act, but that doesn't lessen the understanding that this was indeed a perfect and loving act carried out by a perfect and loving god incapable of evil or sin or unjustness. In that context an explanation would be unnecessary. A limited and flawed human cannot judge god, possibly cannot even understand the perfection of god's plan. God is after all the creator and the judge at the end of days. Perfect justice will be dispensed under a perfect god's gaze, eternity will be perfect, of that there is no doubt.
Will reading the bible allow a person to know that God is perfect and all loving?
Not as far as I have been lead to believe, this must be taken as a priori. You must read the bible in that context, it is only when you believe this priori and know it to be true that you can see the bible absolutely substantiates its own priori (doesn't that sound circular?), everything in the bible thus shows how perfect the Christian god is.
So how does a person come to believe in the priori that the Christian god is perfect and loving?
And how are these reasons to believe in the priori more compelling from the priori that the Muslim god is perfect and loving, or the Jewish god, or the Roman gods or the Maori gods?
Superb post Stevil!! Allow me to comment...
Quote from: Stevil on January 22, 2012, 01:10:05 AM
Ever had a discussion with a Christian who tells you that you are taking stories from the bible "out of context".
I've had atheists tell me I read it out of context!...*laffin*
QuoteThe Christian will state that you need to take the action or passage "in context" with the whole book.
Well, I've never heard that before. It was always to take the context within the story, because there's an awful lot of stories. However, there is a great big discrepancy there. How does one take a multitude of stories with different contexts and meld it into the entire book? Near impossible.
QuoteSo you might be wondering to yourself how can murdering children for something as trivial as calling a bald man names be put into context? How can this be possible? Is the person I am having discussions with completely mad?
I hate to say it, but yes, depending upon their fervor, in a way they are mad.
Quote
For an atheist the flood story, where the earth was intentionally flooded in order to kill almost everyone, would be a much greater "evil" act than the atrocities dished out by Hitler's Nazi regime. Would you entertain the thought, if a person told you that you were taking the Holocaust out of context and that you ought to read Mein Kampf in order to understand how perfect and loving Hitler was? That Hitler is love and that the killing of Jews was perfectly justified and perfectly necessary.
I was once told that if I hadn't read Mein Kampf, I had no say in Nazi policy, politics, etc. I have been told several times over the years the same for the Bible and Christianity.
QuoteI have no doubt that if I read the bible end to end that I will find myself, highlighter in hand, marking out all the atrocities, the contradictions, the "evil" actions carried out by the "evil Christian god, his "evil" army of angels and his "evil" earthly Christian companions (Abram, Moses, Jesus etc)
Luckily for us, that has already been done.
QuoteHow can I know this? How can I know that reading the bible would not put the Christian god's plan perfectly into context for me.
Ain't that just the biggest kicker of them all? If it was a perfect plan and put in perfect context within a perfect book, why is it that there are so many "perfect" denominations of imperfect Christians?
QuoteThe key to me is reading posts made by the likes of Gawen, TheJackle, Kevin Crady etc. These people appear to know the bible inside out. They have read it and obviously have taken a great deal of time to study it and understand it. They are all self professed ex-warriors of God. And yet, they see the bible and its atrocities, contradictions, "evil" actions carried out by the "evil Christian god, his "evil" army of angels and his "evil" earthly Christian companions.
I will take that as an extreme compliment. I bow to you! However, for me only, I have never believed.
QuoteBut I am sure a Christian would make out that these people are not reading the Bible in the correct context.
You would be correct. Also, many Christians would attach the "Satan's inya!" comment as well.
QuoteThe correct context of course is that God is perfect and all loving and that humans are flawed and limited.
If read in that context then you are properly understanding the bible correctly.[/size]
That goes along with the "Ain't that just the biggest kicker of them all? If it was a perfect plan and put in perfect context within a perfect book, why is it that there are so many "perfect" denominations of imperfect Christians?" I made above.
QuoteThe all perfect and loving god set two she bears upon 42 children because that was the perfect and loving thing to do. It truly was. It is unfortunate that the bible doesn't go on to show how this was a perfect and loving act, but that doesn't lessen the understanding that this was indeed a perfect and loving act carried out by a perfect and loving god incapable of evil or sin or unjustness. In that context an explanation would be unnecessary. A limited and flawed human cannot judge god, possibly cannot even understand the perfection of god's plan.
Precisely. I'll never understand how sheep can understand the Shepherd's perfect plan.
QuoteGod is after all the creator and the judge at the end of days. Perfect justice will be dispensed under a perfect god's gaze, eternity will be perfect, of that there is no doubt.
Of course, many Christians take that out of context...*chucklin*
QuoteWill reading the bible allow a person to know that God is perfect and all loving? Not as far as I have been lead to believe, this must be taken as a priori. You must read the bible in that context, it is only when you believe this priori and know it to be true that you can see the bible absolutely substantiates its own priori (doesn't that sound circular?), everything in the bible thus shows how perfect the Christian god is.
It's quite disgusting isn't it?
QuoteSo how does a person come to believe in the priori that the Christian god is perfect and loving?
And how are these reasons to believe in the priori more compelling from the priori that the Muslim god is perfect and loving, or the Jewish god, or the Roman gods or the Maori gods?
Special pleading, wishful thinking, superstition, fear and a willingness to through away critical thinking.
When we can get theists to ask these same questions, Stevil, and to examine them without bias and prejudice, then maybe we will have made inroads to a very long recovery of the human species.
This is the kind of thing that makes me start to think of a "new" blasphemy that's emerged in my mind. All the talk of God is love and God shows perfect love has indeed inspired me.
To take your example of setting the she-bears on 42 children (I have to confess, I've not come across that one in the Bible, where's it at?), it occurred to me that God wanted his holy book to be an example to us, and I would love to tell God, "Let me show you how much I love you! Get ready for the she-bears, buddy, I'm doing it 'cause I'm loving you by the example you've shown!"
Help me if I haven't had this thought in so many variations, each one based out of the "Good" Book. But mostly, my favorite example is my own personal one. God, I would like to show you how much I love you, exactly as you've shown me love. I will lock Your sentient mind into a physical brain that has to fight through distraction, anxiety, depression, and obsession everyday; I'll let you keep access to knowledge and wisdom at human level and an IQ equivalent to my own. No superpowers, no perspective on the way the World/Universe really is. I'll give Him friends that obsess about me, and suggest that He ought to accept that I'm perfect. I'll send a woman His way, if He likes, who will seem so right for him, but will tell Him constantly that He needs help, and eventually will ditch Him at a particularly ill-timed moment, because He just needs help. I believe I can show him this love, without a trace of hatred, but I can't deny that I would feel there was a great deal of irony in showing God this kind of love, in return for his "perfect" love.
It's not quite like my preferred default desire of an axe to His face, but there is something appealing to reciprocating the interest and care he's shown me. Come here, God, let me show you what it's like to be loved by You! Fucker.
Quote from: Tristan Jay on January 22, 2012, 08:50:56 AMI have to confess, I've not come across that one in the Bible, where's it at?
2 Kings, 2:23-25 (NIV and KJV);
Quote23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. "Get out of here, baldy!" they said. "Get out of here, baldy!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.
Quote23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
25And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.
;)
Actaully one of my favourite youtube atheists made a video about the subject because of an apologetic that made really interesting (and pulled-out-of-his-ass) arguments and claims about the story. And a longer series as the said apologetic tried to defend his funny word bendings ;D For those intrested:
Looney Cartooney Apologetics: JPHolding and Da Bears - brettppalmer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycUqSQtbguo)
The Art of Pwnage: Elisha and the Bears, A Final Read Part 1 of 5 - brettppalmer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZQ-FrsO0GY&feature=channel_video_title)
The Art of Pwnage: Elisha and the Bears, A Final Read Part 2 of 5 - brettppalmer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bTJpByaoTI&feature=relmfu)
The Art of Pwnage: Elisha and the Bears, A Final Read Part 3 of 5 - brettppalmer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyElmrndhdU&feature=relmfu)
The Art of Pwnage: Elisha and the Bears, A Final Read Part 4 of 5 - brettppalmer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjEDh3UhNXY&feature=relmfu)
The Art of Pwnage: Elisha and the Bears, A Final Read Part 5 of 5 - brettppalmer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se_9YPOnLOE&feature=relmfu)
Maybe the bible is a test. Anyone who can read the whole thing, and still bow down to a ridiculous, trivial, hateful, murderous god, has failed miserably in the eyes of the REAL god. Hey, maybe we've won the prize for seeing through to the obvious. Whatever the prize is. ;)
Quote from: Traveler on January 22, 2012, 02:41:25 PM
Maybe the bible is a test. Anyone who can read the whole thing, and still bow down to a ridiculous, trivial, hateful, murderous god, has failed miserably in the eyes of the REAL god. Hey, maybe we've won the prize for seeing through to the obvious. Whatever the prize is. ;)
The religious often say that god is perfect, it's the human perception of god that is flawed. Which immediately suggests the question, "then why am I listening to you about it?"
Quote from: Stevil on January 22, 2012, 01:10:05 AM
Will reading the bible allow a person to know that God is perfect and all loving?
No, not if you include the Old Testament. But the New Testament presentation of God is much more consistent with a loving deity. Jesus didn't kill anyone and didn't tell anyone else to kill anyone. There's really no way to fit the OT presentation of God into the Christian "God is love" mold, IMO. That is one reason why I think many of the stories in the OT are interpretations of events from the standpoint of a mistaken paradigm of God. Jesus corrected a lot of that misconception about God's nature, but since modern Christianity has failed to break free from the OT (as I think Jesus intended for it to do), it is still proclaiming a flawed theory of God.
Quote from: Stevil on January 22, 2012, 01:10:05 AM
So how does a person come to believe in the priori that the Christian god is perfect and loving?
I don't know about the "perfect" part, as that word can have a lot of meanings. But understanding God as loving comes primarily from personal, subjective experience as opposed to a wooden interpretation of biblical texts. If one's personal experience of God is generally good (as mine is), it seems as though one is dealing with a good, loving God.
Quote from: Traveler on January 22, 2012, 02:41:25 PM
Maybe the bible is a test. Anyone who can read the whole thing, and still bow down to a ridiculous, trivial, hateful, murderous god, has failed miserably in the eyes of the REAL god. Hey, maybe we've won the prize for seeing through to the obvious. Whatever the prize is. ;)
Do you have evidence of this? No? Doesn't matter because it's an idea I like and makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside - must be true! ;D
Here's the thing you're going to have to get your head around: God does what God does. Where do you get your sense of morality from in order to judge God? You can call Him anything you want, a murderous tyrant, whatever; it doesn't matter. God is God. He created everything. Everything belongs to him, and he gives existence and consciousness to every living thing. He can give, and he can take. He can kill children, old people, the innocent, the guilty—it doesn't matter. God is God.
You think you can buck this idea, but the only way you can prevail is to be right when you say there is no God. Otherwise, you're stuck with being a creature of the Creator. I don't judge God; how can you? By using the standard God put in your mind?
I find it interesting that if a rock falls from a mountain and crushes a busload of kids, you blame God and not the rock, and yet you claim to be an atheist. Why is it atheists spend so much time blaming a God they don't believe exists?
Or are you trying to say that because of these things, there is no God? Fine, then why the outrage?
Here's the thing you're going to have to get your head around: Allah does what Allah does. Where do you get your sense of morality from in order to judge Allah? You can call Him anything you want, a murderous tyrant, whatever; it doesn't matter. Allah is Allah. He created everything. Everything belongs to him, and he gives existence and consciousness to every living thing. He can give, and he can take. He can kill children, old people, the innocent, the guilty—it doesn't matter. Allah is Allah.
You think you can buck this idea, but the only way you can prevail is to be right when you say Islam is wrong. Otherwise, you're stuck with being a creature of the Creator know as Allah. I don't judge Allah; how can you? By using the standard Allah put in your mind?
I find it interesting that if a rock falls from a mountain and crushes a busload of kids, you blame Allah and not the rock, and yet you claim to be an atheist. Why is it atheists spend so much time blaming a god they don't believe exists?
Or are you trying to say that because of these things, there is no God? Fine, then why the outrage?
Quote from: Egor on January 22, 2012, 10:08:52 PM
You think you can buck this idea, but the only way you can prevail is to be right when you say there is no God.
My smart ass post above is aimed at this quote from you, egor.
The only way YOU can prevail is to be right when you say Islam is wrong, and judaism is wrong, and Hinduism is wrong, and buddhism is wrong...
Quote from: Egor on January 22, 2012, 10:08:52 PM
Here's the thing you're going to have to get your head around: God does what God does.
Here's the thing you're going to have to get your head around: why would I listen to you about it?
Quote from: Egor on January 22, 2012, 10:08:52 PM
I find it interesting that if a rock falls from a mountain and crushes a busload of kids, you blame God and not the rock, and yet you claim to be an atheist. Why is it atheists spend so much time blaming a God they don't believe exists?
You want me to make a defense of your strawman argument?
Show me an atheist that blames any god for anything and I will show you a person that is not an atheist.
Quote from: Egor on January 22, 2012, 10:08:52 PM
Or are you trying to say that because of these things, there is no God? Fine, then why the outrage?
Another strawman. No atheist is angry at god
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 22, 2012, 08:30:34 PM
If one's personal experience of God is generally good (as mine is), it seems as though one is dealing with a good, loving God.
By your own admission, you are making assumptions.
A con artist is very good at winning their mark over by appearing to be generally trustworthy, compassionate and honest. Such a person could be deemed as good and loving. In the Christian faith there is the concept of Satan whom is considered to be both powerful and deceptive.
How can you know that your personal experience was that of the god and not the satan?
Quote from: Stevil on January 23, 2012, 02:47:28 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 22, 2012, 08:30:34 PM
If one's personal experience of God is generally good (as mine is), it seems as though one is dealing with a good, loving God.
By your own admission, you are making assumptions.
A con artist is very good at winning their mark over by appearing to be generally trustworthy, compassionate and honest. Such a person could be deemed as good and loving. In the Christian faith there is the concept of Satan whom is considered to be both powerful and deceptive.
How can you know that your personal experience was that of the god and not the satan?
I don't know. It could be God, it could be Satan, it could be my own mind. I'm simply relating my experience, and in my experience, it appears to me to be God. This is about faith, not absolute knowledge. I don't claim to know, I am simply reporting the basis for my belief.
Do you have conversations with God?
Religion in general relies upon people shutting down the reasoning center of their brains and leaving it off at all times when practicing their faith. They not only do this but they are taught to be proud of it by proclaiming it to be a demonstration of the strength of their faith. They do not question the nonsense of what they believe and they make lame excuses to protect it. Egor's post up there is a good example.
This is all made to be pleasing to their all-powerful magical space daddy so he will reward them with an afterlife cookie. ::)
Quote from: Egor on January 22, 2012, 10:08:52 PMI don't judge God; how can you? By using the standard God put in your mind?
From what I have observed about humans and how they socialize standards of behavior, there is a generalize demand or desire in our psyche to see those who are of higher station and who enforce the expected standards should measure up to those established standards as well or better as ourselves, as an example to us. I see the impulse rearing up when a politician gets caught violating ethical or moral standards; and the impulse and rage is powerfully strong when it is religious authorities and organizations that are discovered to be greatly wanting (Catholic Church).
Most of the Monotheists among humanity give God a free pass, when it comes to looking toward Him to exemplify the moral standards as well as/better/perfectly when compared to us. It's something of a curiosity that we demand that those in authority exemplify the standards, yet this stops dead when we get to God. God with a level of perfection built up for him so high above those petty political and religious figure, and the standard set by him isn't even remotely modelled for us by Him when we look through the Bible. The simplest examples: He tells us not to kill, He commits and commands genocide. He tells us not to covet our neighbors' spouse and possessions, yet he demands (and the Bible says jealously) that all our relatives love Him more, even as far as at the expense of us (when he's already got everything, or can have anything he wants, anyway?). Even if all of us on this planet faced the undeniable proof that he exists, there will always be humans who will not give him a free pass, Creator or not.
I've speculated in my mind that we humans challenge ourselves to meet a higher standard that He never bothers do himself (even if Jesus Christ is his example, then we have to ask about the times where he's been in violation of that standard outside the context of living life as Jesus; and He might very well just come out say, "Yeah...by the way, Jesus's life, example, and sacrifice was meant to take My sins away as well as all of yours" but He hasn't weighed in on that, so the stain of His own sin might as well be considered to linger).
That example of killing children because they teased a prophet for being bald is fucking ridiculously petty, the majority of decent humans wouldn't even consider doing such a thing (feelings hurt or not, example needed or not), so how the fuck does He think He's going to get off boasting about His perfection and bitching endlessly about our immorality while He dares to show such a fucking stupid example?
It's almost as if we have been able to better ourselves above his own example, taken his Commandments and made them even more stringent for ourselves (hypothetical example, we debate about whether withholding the truth qualifies as lying, and some people live their lives to that standard; and we might very well take that amplified standard and ask why God withholds truths from us).
QuoteI find it interesting that if a rock falls from a mountain and crushes a busload of kids, you blame God and not the rock, and yet you claim to be an atheist. Why is it atheists spend so much time blaming a God they don't believe exists?
Or are you trying to say that because of these things, there is no God? Fine, then why the outrage?
I can only speak for myself. Not all the posters here are atheists. I'm not.
Quote from: Egor on January 22, 2012, 10:08:52 PMI don't judge God; how can you? By using the standard God put in your mind?
By the fact that humans created god, and all the rules and privileges assigned to it. And those of us who do not participate directly in the creation of this myth are certainly entitled to ask those of you who do what in world you're thinking of.
Quote from: Tristan Jay on January 23, 2012, 05:37:52 AM
QuoteI find it interesting that if a rock falls from a mountain and crushes a busload of kids, you blame God and not the rock, and yet you claim to be an atheist. Why is it atheists spend so much time blaming a God they don't believe exists?
I can only speak for myself. Not all the posters here are atheists. I'm not.
I'm not sure who Ed's talking to, since I can't recall any atheist on this forum blaming god for disasters. Atheists I've known seem to understand better than most that shit happens.
I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.
Quote from: Egor on January 22, 2012, 10:08:52 PM
Here's the thing you're going to have to get your head around..
Here's the thing you're going to have to get your head around: who the hell are you to say?
Quote from: Tristan Jay on January 23, 2012, 05:37:52 AM
Quote from: Egor on January 22, 2012, 10:08:52 PMI don't judge God; how can you? By using the standard God put in your mind?
From what I have observed about humans and how they socialize standards of behavior, there is a generalize demand or desire in our psyche to see those who are of higher station and who enforce the expected standards should measure up to those established standards as well or better as ourselves, as an example to us. I see the impulse rearing up when a politician gets caught violating ethical or moral standards; and the impulse and rage is powerfully strong when it is religious authorities and organizations that are discovered to be greatly wanting (Catholic Church).
Most of the Monotheists among humanity give God a free pass, when it comes to looking toward Him to exemplify the moral standards as well as/better/perfectly when compared to us. It's something of a curiosity that we demand that those in authority exemplify the standards, yet this stops dead when we get to God. God with a level of perfection built up for him so high above those petty political and religious figure, and the standard set by him isn't even remotely modelled for us by Him when we look through the Bible. The simplest examples: He tells us not to kill, He commits and commands genocide. He tells us not to covet our neighbors' spouse and possessions, yet he demands (and the Bible says jealously) that all our relatives love Him more, even as far as at the expense of us (when he's already got everything, or can have anything he wants, anyway?). Even if all of us on this planet faced the undeniable proof that he exists, there will always be humans who will not give him a free pass, Creator or not.
I've speculated in my mind that we humans challenge ourselves to meet a higher standard that He never bothers do himself (even if Jesus Christ is his example, then we have to ask about the times where he's been in violation of that standard outside the context of living life as Jesus; and He might very well just come out say, "Yeah...by the way, Jesus's life, example, and sacrifice was meant to take My sins away as well as all of yours" but He hasn't weighed in on that, so the stain of His own sin might as well be considered to linger).
That example of killing children because they teased a prophet for being bald is fucking ridiculously petty, the majority of decent humans wouldn't even consider doing such a thing (feelings hurt or not, example needed or not), so how the fuck does He think He's going to get off boasting about His perfection and bitching endlessly about our immorality while He dares to show such a fucking stupid example?
It's almost as if we have been able to better ourselves above his own example, taken his Commandments and made them even more stringent for ourselves (hypothetical example, we debate about whether withholding the truth qualifies as lying, and some people live their lives to that standard; and we might very well take that amplified standard and ask why God withholds truths from us).
I agree with this, even though I find the theistic idea of god(s) to be unbelievable. That sort of respect just can't be demanded, at least not for me.
Trying to terrorise into fearfulness is not the same as demanding respect. real respect has to be earned, and the best way to earn it is to go by example.
The theistic idea of god sort of fails at this.
Quote from: xSilverPhinxTrying to terrorise into fearfulness is not the same as demanding respect. real respect has to be earned, and the best way to earn it is to go by example.
Wow! That kind of goes to the core of what I seem to have danced around, and taken the point a step further. Nice, xSilverPhinx!
I'll take this and develop it along the lines of thinking it leads me to. It brings me to the whole Trust thing. We know the cliche, and there are more refined ideas about it.
The cliche goes: Trust is earned, not given. In accordance with this, God hasn't earned the trust of all people. Every individual person has their own personalized boundaries for where trust in earned, and God (who should know everything) simply doesn't tailor his response effectively.
The more realistic version of the way things happen (described to me at different times by Christians) is that we place our trust in something or someone without knowing that this trust is going to be affirmed as a worthy investment. We then withdraw our trust if the object or subject of our trust does not measure up to our requirements to continue according our trust. Even within this senario, God (with perfect knowledge) should know when the threshold has been reached, and an individual's trust is withdrawn. Therefore, He is to blame for every person who withdraws their trust, because He should know better.
Which makes him look like a real fucking moron when it comes to relationships...
Whatever people believe or rationalize in the wake of the decision to withdraw or withhold trust, is His responsibility, because we are only working with what we can see and what our mind processes. Anything else is what He shows us or not. His responsibility, if what the Bible and Christians say is true. Or his responsibility to 'fess up about what he really
isn't capable of. I'm sure he could muster the energy to make an effort to communicate honestly about that.
I don't think the Free will argument can be brought in to counter this, either. There are people whose Free will is imperfect; might as well lay the blame at God's feet for that one. There's always the example of God hardening the Pharaoh's heart so that God could kill all the first borns, what the fuck was the point of interfering with a person's Free Will in order to "justify" killing lots of people? And look, we've come full circle with the "do not kill" thing!
Edit: Attributed quote - Tank
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 23, 2012, 04:05:24 AM
I don't know. It could be God, it could be Satan, it could be my own mind. I'm simply relating my experience, and in my experience, it appears to me to be God. This is about faith, not absolute knowledge. I don't claim to know, I am simply reporting the basis for my belief.
How does your faith manifest itself?
Could you consider acting on faith a dangerous thing, even if it were the god or the god's messengers sending you the messages?
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 23, 2012, 06:03:06 AM
I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.
I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood this, and so I accept it as truth.
There is no standard of good or bad that hangs over God. God decrees all standards. That's all I'm trying to say.
Quote from: Egor on January 23, 2012, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 23, 2012, 06:03:06 AM
I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.
I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood this, and so I accept it as truth.
There is no standard of good or bad that hangs over God. God decrees all standards. That's all I'm trying to say.
Well, if your god is not good why should you wish to worship him in the first place? Are you a closet masochist?
If you are a moral person, you would fight agaist that which is not good, no matter who or what is doing it.
If your god is not good, then your god is not worthy of my worship.
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 23, 2012, 02:08:32 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 23, 2012, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 23, 2012, 06:03:06 AM
I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.
I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood this, and so I accept it as truth.
There is no standard of good or bad that hangs over God. God decrees all standards. That's all I'm trying to say.
Well, if your god is not good why should you wish to worship him in the first place? Are you a closet masochist?
If you are a moral person, you would fight agaist that which is not good, no matter who or what is doing it.
If your god is not good, then your god is not worthy of my worship.
It's because Egor sees himself as god's personal buddy *nudge* *wink*
Just like wannabe bullies bascially worship the bully ringleader, people like Egor bascially want to feel like a close buddy of a powerful being.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 23, 2012, 03:14:07 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 23, 2012, 02:08:32 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 23, 2012, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 23, 2012, 06:03:06 AM
I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.
I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood this, and so I accept it as truth.
There is no standard of good or bad that hangs over God. God decrees all standards. That's all I'm trying to say.
Well, if your god is not good why should you wish to worship him in the first place? Are you a closet masochist?
If you are a moral person, you would fight agaist that which is not good, no matter who or what is doing it.
If your god is not good, then your god is not worthy of my worship.
It's because Egor sees himself as god's personal buddy *nudge* *wink*
Just like wannabe bullies bascially worship the bully ringleader, people like Egor bascially want to feel like a close buddy of a powerful being.
That's actually kinda sad, isn't it?
Quote from: Egor on January 23, 2012, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 23, 2012, 06:03:06 AM
I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.
I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood this, and so I accept it as truth.
There is no standard of good or bad that hangs over God. God decrees all standards. That's all I'm trying to say.
Not my point, but whatever. This is the god you've created for yourself and the rules you've applied to it. That's understood. You need to understand that you declaring your god beyond judgement has no affect on whether or not we can judge it.
So are you now retracting your claim that atheists, at least on this board, blame your god for misfortunes?
Quote from: Egor on January 22, 2012, 10:08:52 PM
Fine, then why the outrage?
What outrage are you talking about? Outrage towards a nonexistent god that is sincere rather than in jest I have yet to see from an atheist, however outrage at a person who professes to be doing immoral actions in the name of a god or preaching discrimination due to a book they consider to be "the truth" I have seen.
Quote from: Egor on January 23, 2012, 11:02:00 AM
I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood this, and so I accept it as truth.
Were you a dog in a previous life?
To a dog, it's human owner is god. Seemingly all powerful and infinitely intelligent, the owner's voice booms with divine command. Without question, without any thoughts of why, it fetches a stick because the divine commands it so.
Dogs make great warriors. They will fight and even kill on command, being an amoral slave to the command of their god they will not question, they will not think, they simply do because the divine commands it so.
The difference I see between you and the dog is that sometimes the dog gets rewarded. Sometimes its god tosses a doggie treat, or bestows a congratulatory pat on the head. Its god may even take care of it if wounded on the battlefield. Your god gives you silence, no treat, no pat, just leaves you to lick your own wounds or even to die if you are in such a state that you require help to live.
The dog is smart, it understands the concept of working for reward, but I guess old habits are hard to break.
Quote from: Stevil on January 23, 2012, 07:44:23 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 23, 2012, 04:05:24 AM
I don't know. It could be God, it could be Satan, it could be my own mind. I'm simply relating my experience, and in my experience, it appears to me to be God. This is about faith, not absolute knowledge. I don't claim to know, I am simply reporting the basis for my belief.
How does your faith manifest itself?
Could you consider acting on faith a dangerous thing, even if it were the god or the god's messengers sending you the messages?
My faith manifests itself generally in my view of life: that there is a meaning and purpose to life, that the end result is good even if there are struggles in the middle, that human life is special or even sacred, that love is the best principle to guide our relationships. I can't imagine acting on my faith would ever be dangerous to anyone. I don't receive specific messages from God other than 1) what I generally feel as a result of my experiences, and 2) what Jesus taught in the New Testament. I can't imagine any of that being dangerous. If you are talking about a message to do harm to someone, if I thought I had received such a message (which I have not), I would assume that it was my own head. A message to harm someone would be completely inconsistent with Jesus' teachings and what I have experienced.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 23, 2012, 04:31:36 AM
Do you have conversations with God?
I pray and meditate upon God, and believe that I sense his presence, but if you mean do I hear a voice, the answer is "no". I get a sense sometimes that I am being guided by a divine hand, but that's about the extent of it.
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 23, 2012, 03:45:08 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 23, 2012, 03:14:07 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 23, 2012, 02:08:32 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 23, 2012, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 23, 2012, 06:03:06 AM
I have heard atheists here wondering why the religious give their god credit for good things but no blame for the bad, but that's hardly the same thing.
I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood this, and so I accept it as truth.
There is no standard of good or bad that hangs over God. God decrees all standards. That's all I'm trying to say.
Well, if your god is not good why should you wish to worship him in the first place? Are you a closet masochist?
If you are a moral person, you would fight agaist that which is not good, no matter who or what is doing it.
If your god is not good, then your god is not worthy of my worship.
It's because Egor sees himself as god's personal buddy *nudge* *wink*
Just like wannabe bullies bascially worship the bully ringleader, people like Egor bascially want to feel like a close buddy of a powerful being.
That's actually kinda sad, isn't it?
It's pretty much pathetic.
Quote from: Stevil on January 23, 2012, 06:19:51 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 23, 2012, 11:02:00 AM
I've never agreed with calling God good, not from a judgmental standard anyway. Obviously, God is good because God is God. Whatever God does is what God wills to do and whatever is God's will is by definition, good. Jesus apparently understood this, and so I accept it as truth.
Were you a dog in a previous life?
To a dog, it's human owner is god. Seemingly all powerful and infinitely intelligent, the owner's voice booms with divine command. Without question, without any thoughts of why, it fetches a stick because the divine commands it so.
Dogs make great warriors. They will fight and even kill on command, being an amoral slave to the command of their god they will not question, they will not think, they simply do because the divine commands it so.
The difference I see between you and the dog is that sometimes the dog gets rewarded. Sometimes its god tosses a doggie treat, or bestows a congratulatory pat on the head. Its god may even take care of it if wounded on the battlefield. Your god gives you silence, no treat, no pat, just leaves you to lick your own wounds or even to die if you are in such a state that you require help to live.
The dog is smart, it understands the concept of working for reward, but I guess old habits are hard to break.
And the Oscar for best analogy goes to...
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 23, 2012, 07:08:58 PM
My faith manifests itself generally in my view of life: that there is a meaning and purpose to life, that the end result is good even if there are struggles in the middle, that human life is special or even sacred, that love is the best principle to guide our relationships. I can't imagine acting on my faith would ever be dangerous to anyone. I don't receive specific messages from God other than 1) what I generally feel as a result of my experiences, and 2) what Jesus taught in the New Testament. I can't imagine any of that being dangerous. If you are talking about a message to do harm to someone, if I thought I had received such a message (which I have not), I would assume that it was my own head. A message to harm someone would be completely inconsistent with Jesus' teachings and what I have experienced.
Nice :)
Not trying to convince you not to believe in a god, but do you know that you can be a "good", loving and compassionate person even without a god belief?
You could even take on board some of the positive philosophies that you like from within the New Testament and still be an atheist.
Quote from: Gawen on January 22, 2012, 02:34:44 AM
QuoteThe key to me is reading posts made by the likes of Gawen, TheJackle, Kevin Crady etc. These people appear to know the bible inside out. They have read it and obviously have taken a great deal of time to study it and understand it. They are all self professed ex-warriors of God. And yet, they see the bible and its atrocities, contradictions, "evil" actions carried out by the "evil Christian god, his "evil" army of angels and his "evil" earthly Christian companions.
I will take that as an extreme compliment. I bow to you! However, for me only, I have never believed.
Ahhh, sorry Gawen. I thought due to your knowledge and determined fervour you once were. I certainly remember TheJackle (previous HAF member) making comments that he once was one. Kevin Crady's awsome "Yeshua's Amazing Magical Snake Oil
tm" (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=2837.msg38282#msg38282) post was beautifully crafted.
Quote from: Stevil on January 23, 2012, 09:54:55 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 23, 2012, 07:08:58 PM
My faith manifests itself generally in my view of life: that there is a meaning and purpose to life, that the end result is good even if there are struggles in the middle, that human life is special or even sacred, that love is the best principle to guide our relationships. I can't imagine acting on my faith would ever be dangerous to anyone. I don't receive specific messages from God other than 1) what I generally feel as a result of my experiences, and 2) what Jesus taught in the New Testament. I can't imagine any of that being dangerous. If you are talking about a message to do harm to someone, if I thought I had received such a message (which I have not), I would assume that it was my own head. A message to harm someone would be completely inconsistent with Jesus' teachings and what I have experienced.
Nice :)
Not trying to convince you not to believe in a god, but do you know that you can be a "good", loving and compassionate person even without a god belief?
You could even take on board some of the positive philosophies that you like from within the New Testament and still be an atheist.
Of course I know that you can be "good" without believing in God. But I don't believe in God in order to be good. I believe because of my own personal experience. So, that's where it stands.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 23, 2012, 10:20:50 PM
Of course I know that you can be "good" without believing in God. But I don't believe in God in order to be good. I believe because of my own personal experience. So, that's where it stands.
OK, that's cool. Thanks for taking the time to explain your personal position, I can respect that.
Would you say you represent the minority, majority or somewhere in between, Bruce?
Generally, Christians hold all three of the following statements:
1) God is omnipotent (metaphysical statement)
2) God is perfectly good (metaphysical statement)
3) Evil exists (ontological statement)
The contradiction cannot be lost, if a person is able to read and comprehend. Here one needs to distinguish between two types of evil: Moral evil and natural evil. Moral is evil brought about by moral agents/human beings which highlights intention. Natural evil is pain and suffering brought about by such as earthquakes, diseases, famines, floods, etc. and focuses on suffering or the consequences thereof. I leave it to you philosophers. The PoE deserves its own thread.
Most of this crap starts with Augustine. The foundation of Augustine's theodicy: There exists two rival and partially celestial camps. One seeking to follow the ways of God and one seeking to follow their own desires. The presence of sin and evil occur as the result of God-given freedom of choice for both humanity and angels. That although all of humanity stands guilty before God (Romans 5), God will bring salvation to some despite that no one deserves it.
What does this have to do with a perfect God? Simply, 'God saw all that he had made, and it was very good' - Genesis 1:31. God gets a free pass. He's innocent. Augustine says, "A willful turning of the self in desire from the highest Good, which is God himself, to some lesser good". This would mean that no evil comes from God. That sounds a lot like what Bruce and Egor say, doesn't it? The problem with Bruce, Egor and Augustine is that they utter unsubstantiated assertions.
"For when the will abandons what is above itself, and turns to what is lower, it becomes evil - not because that is evil to which it turns, but because the turning itself is wicked" - Augustine. Reread that phrase from Augustine. Does that sounds like a perfect Gods perfect creation? Not to me.
Reformed theology teaches evil goes back to the sin of Adam where in Genesis 3. It teaches that physical disruption and corruption came about directly from human disobedience. But can God be perfect if it creates an imperfect creation? Or if created perfectly and with prior knowledge it allows the creation to become imperfect? A divine plan? If the world, in all it's fullness is an expression of Divine creativity and only limited by what God can do or has conceived of doing, then is this world perfect? Is God? All of us can imagine a significantly better world than the one we live in now. Thus it seems that either the world is not perfect or that God has limited ability, or vision.
Augustine used a lot of assertions. He said that although the world looks imperfect to us this is because we look at things from a limited or distorted perspective. Ask Bruce or Egor if their belief is distorted. I would wager they would say no, but it is our vision of the world that is distorted. It does amaze me that Augustine, Anslem, Bruce, Egor and every Christian theist have such faith that they can make certain and positive assertions without proof of the very thing they place their faith in. So is God perfect? Well, they cannot even demonstrate their god; so the question of its existence is foremost than the question of whether or not it is perfect. But Gods existence is not the title of this thread.
As far as I know, all of Christianity says all degrees of good and evil have a place within the Divine Will. On the other hand, if all of Christianity does NOT say this, it is said in the Bible. They say our views about imperfection (and evil) are merely relative to our own viewpoint. If this were not so then God's sovereignty would have to be questioned for just about every event - for they may have been brought about beyond God's control. For Augustine and just about every Christian, this would be anathema. Remember, nearly all, if not all Christian theodicy is designed to protect God's sovereignty, perfection AND God's perfect goodness.
So, asserting that God is perfect cannot be done to anyone's satisfaction without faith and special pleading in that which cannot be seen. Talking about a gods perfection cannot be done without calling the PoE into view as well. But is god perfect? Many believe sin is a blemish on God's creation. Because God created sin and sin is punished, it means God uses the sin and the punishment to further his own purposes. However, this brings us to the notion that if God has predestined sin to be a part of the world and our experience, God is responsible for sin and moral evil in the world...there is no distorting that.
If god has predestined:
Some people to be saved,
Responsible for sin that creates a blemish on his own creation,
Ambition to further his own purpose, whatever that may be (due to the two above statements), then God is evil, immoral or amoral (and no where near perfection in either).
So why is God not perfect? If a perfect being sins then it was not created perfect in the first place. If God made covenants to last for eternity with his chosen people, and the Jesus story is true, then God sinned against his own commandments and covenants with his chosen people AND against his chosen people. This is not an example of a perfect being. If a covenant is made for all eternity, predestination fails utterly and the whole shebang is rendered faulty. Not a good example of a perfect being here either.
There is no pie in the sky behind the curtain, smoke and flames and mirrors.
There is no "Evil" or "Perfection" either.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 23, 2012, 10:20:50 PM
Of course I know that you can be "good" without believing in God. But I don't believe in God in order to be good. I believe because of my own personal experience. So, that's where it stands.
It sounds like you agree with the same saying I do: If there is a god then I will live my life the best way I can, if there is no god then I will live my life the best way I can.
Quote from: Stevil on January 23, 2012, 06:19:51 PM
Were you a dog in a previous life?
To a dog, it's human owner is god. Seemingly all powerful and infinitely intelligent, the owner's voice booms with divine command. Without question, without any thoughts of why, it fetches a stick because the divine commands it so.
Dogs make great warriors. They will fight and even kill on command, being an amoral slave to the command of their god they will not question, they will not think, they simply do because the divine commands it so.
The difference I see between you and the dog is that sometimes the dog gets rewarded. Sometimes its god tosses a doggie treat, or bestows a congratulatory pat on the head. Its god may even take care of it if wounded on the battlefield. Your god gives you silence, no treat, no pat, just leaves you to lick your own wounds or even to die if you are in such a state that you require help to live.
The dog is smart, it understands the concept of working for reward, but I guess old habits are hard to break.
The dog analogy is very apropos. I really don't have much argument with it. However, you are wrong about the reward part, and the silence part. Unfortunately, it seems you have never experienced God's reward in your life and his voice. What a pity. At least, however, he's keeping you alive for a while yet to change your ways.
That's the bottom line.
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 06:41:27 AM
The dog analogy is very apropos. I really don't have much argument with it. However, you are wrong about the reward part, and the silence part. Unfortunately, it seems you have never experienced God's reward in your life and his voice. What a pity. At least, however, he's keeping you alive for a while yet to change your ways.
That's the bottom line.
Could you give a detailed description of his voice?
Would it be the same voice that other people hear? It would be interesting to see if there is some commonality between believers descriptions.
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 06:41:27 AM
Unfortunately, it seems you have never experienced God's reward in your life and his voice.
Have you seen my post 13 on this thread, about a possible con, how do you know your PE hasn't been a con?
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 06:41:27 AMWhat a pity. At least, however, he's keeping you alive for a while yet to change your ways.
That's the bottom line.
-chortles- your posts are oddly amusing. and very difficult to take seriously.
::)
Quote from: Stevil on January 24, 2012, 07:23:07 AM
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 06:41:27 AM
The dog analogy is very apropos. I really don't have much argument with it. However, you are wrong about the reward part, and the silence part. Unfortunately, it seems you have never experienced God's reward in your life and his voice. What a pity. At least, however, he's keeping you alive for a while yet to change your ways.
That's the bottom line.
Could you give a detailed description of his voice?
Would it be the same voice that other people hear? It would be interesting to see if there is some commonality between believers descriptions.
Like the commonality in descriptions of extraterrestrial anal probers? Or the commonality in descriptions of the light skinned, blue eyed Jesus? But I do agree that it would be interesting.
Quote from: Davin on January 24, 2012, 03:24:25 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 24, 2012, 07:23:07 AM
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 06:41:27 AM
The dog analogy is very apropos. I really don't have much argument with it. However, you are wrong about the reward part, and the silence part. Unfortunately, it seems you have never experienced God's reward in your life and his voice. What a pity. At least, however, he's keeping you alive for a while yet to change your ways.
That's the bottom line.
Could you give a detailed description of his voice?
Would it be the same voice that other people hear? It would be interesting to see if there is some commonality between believers descriptions.
Like the commonality in descriptions of extraterrestrial anal probers? Or the commonality in descriptions of the light skinned, blue eyed Jesus? But I do agree that it would be interesting.
Yes, Egor, please do give us a description. ;D
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 24, 2012, 02:08:12 AM
Would you say you represent the minority, majority or somewhere in between, Bruce?
Don't know about the world, but in my area, probably a minority.
Quote from: Gawen on January 24, 2012, 02:13:09 AM
Augustine used a lot of assertions. He said that although the world looks imperfect to us this is because we look at things from a limited or distorted perspective. Ask Bruce or Egor if their belief is distorted. I would wager they would say no, but it is our vision of the world that is distorted. It does amaze me that Augustine, Anslem, Bruce, Egor and every Christian theist have such faith that they can make certain and positive assertions without proof of the very thing they place their faith in. So is God perfect? Well, they cannot even demonstrate their god; so the question of its existence is foremost than the question of whether or not it is perfect. But Gods existence is not the title of this thread.
I shy away from using words like "perfect" in describing God, because I'm not sure what that means with respect to the deity. He is what he is. I suppose it depends on one's standard for perfection. I also shy away from all the "omni" statements, because I don't know whether they fit or not. I start with my personal experience and build from there. Even from biblical statements, there are certain things that God
cannot do (such as lie), so I'm not sure that qualifies as "omnipotent." So instead of engaging in theological speculations about things I can't prove, I try more and more to keep my descriptions of God confined to what I experience.
Quote from: Stevil on January 24, 2012, 07:23:07 AM
Could you give a detailed description of his voice?
Would it be the same voice that other people hear? It would be interesting to see if there is some commonality between believer's descriptions.
It sounds like my voice. God communicates mind-to-mind. It's like you talk to God and he talks back and then maybe for your own convenience you translate it into words. So, his voice sounds like my voice. And it is the same for everyone who hears the voice of God. They hear him in their own voice.
But when he talks it is instantaneous; the entire communication is there all at once, and you know it's not from you because you wouldn't have thought it up like that. And you don't always have to translate it into words. With experience, the words seem to become unnecessary.
For example, right now God is telling me that it's okay to respond to this question you asked, that it's what he wants me to do, and I tell him that the response is going to be such-and-such, and He says it doesn't matter this time but not to elaborate too much. And then I ask, "Is there anything else I should say?" but I get no response, so I assume that's the end of it.
And this is the mystical part: Once I have a communication with God like that, I don't want it to stop. I don't want it to end. My mind expands in response to it, and I begin to see everything like I'm looking at the whole universe at one time. And even as I type this, I feel a flood of communications, and the channel is open, and I can ask Him anything. And then I realize the reason he stopped the communication in the last paragraph was so that I would write this paragraph in my own words, and I think that's very cool.
That's how it is with me. And it's been this way going on 40 years. So, let me ask you a question now: Given the experience I described to you, and given the amount of my life that it has been there, do you really think I could ever become an atheist?
Quote from: Stevil on January 24, 2012, 08:00:00 AM
Have you seen my post 13 on this thread, about a possible con, how do you know your PE hasn't been a con?
If God has allowed me to be deceived by Satan all my life, then there's nothing I can do about that. God is God and there's no stopping Him. I certainly don't want my relationship with what I believe to be God to end.
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 06:06:20 PM
If God has allowed me to be deceived by Satan all my life, then there's nothing I can do about that. God is God and there's no stopping Him. I certainly don't want my relationship with what I believe to be God to end.
So let me get this straight. If you are following the devil, it's because god wanted you too? I was aware that man sinned on there own without any help from god. That means that all the homosexuals, atheists, adulterers, thieves, and liars are like that because god let them be swayed by evil? How does that make god "good"? Surely, a loving god wouldn't willingly let his children hang out with the devil?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 24, 2012, 04:09:32 PM
Even from biblical statements, there are certain things that God cannot do (such as lie)
Genesis 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die
1 Kings 22:23
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 06:06:20 PM
That's how it is with me. And it's been this way going on 40 years. So, let me ask you a question now: Given the experience I described to you, and given the amount of my life that it has been there, do you really think I could ever become an atheist?
It is not usual for Christians to hear so much voice in their heads, certainly not on superficial things like this post.
Do you think it is possible that you have some issues? Many people do. Have you seen "A beautiful mind"?
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 06:06:20 PM
If God has allowed me to be deceived by Satan all my life, then there's nothing I can do about that. God is God and there's no stopping Him. I certainly don't want my relationship with what I believe to be God to end.
So you don't care if the voices are the truth, you don't care if they lead you astray or into dispear, or away from God? You like the voices, so you obey?
22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persude him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
So god sends spirits to speak to humans, to lie to them, to lead them to their demise.
The story of Job shows that god will not protect you, he is willing to gamble with the devil, knowing that your loved ones will die, as a test to see if you love him. God offers nothing in return, no protection or loyalty for Job's dedication, no love, just a trivial gamble based on his own vanity.
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 06:06:20 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 24, 2012, 07:23:07 AM
Could you give a detailed description of his voice?
Would it be the same voice that other people hear? It would be interesting to see if there is some commonality between believer's descriptions.
It sounds like my voice. God communicates mind-to-mind. It's like you talk to God and he talks back and then maybe for your own convenience you translate it into words. So, his voice sounds like my voice. And it is the same for everyone who hears the voice of God. They hear him in their own voice.
But when he talks it is instantaneous; the entire communication is there all at once, and you know it's not from you because you wouldn't have thought it up like that. And you don't always have to translate it into words. With experience, the words seem to become unnecessary.
For example, right now God is telling me that it's okay to respond to this question you asked, that it's what he wants me to do, and I tell him that the response is going to be such-and-such, and He says it doesn't matter this time but not to elaborate too much. And then I ask, "Is there anything else I should say?" but I get no response, so I assume that's the end of it.
And this is the mystical part: Once I have a communication with God like that, I don't want it to stop. I don't want it to end. My mind expands in response to it, and I begin to see everything like I'm looking at the whole universe at one time. And even as I type this, I feel a flood of communications, and the channel is open, and I can ask Him anything. And then I realize the reason he stopped the communication in the last paragraph was so that I would write this paragraph in my own words, and I think that's very cool.
That's how it is with me. And it's been this way going on 40 years. So, let me ask you a question now: Given the experience I described to you, and given the amount of my life that it has been there, do you really think I could ever become an atheist?
Quote from: Stevil on January 24, 2012, 08:00:00 AM
Have you seen my post 13 on this thread, about a possible con, how do you know your PE hasn't been a con?
If God has allowed me to be deceived by Satan all my life, then there's nothing I can do about that. God is God and there's no stopping Him. I certainly don't want my relationship with what I believe to be God to end.
Could you ask god or whatever it is you think is talking to you to give you some knowledge that is measurable (not pure unfalsifiable speculative philosophising or sophistry) that you dont know or better, couldn't have known? That would make your, er..communications...with god a little more plausible.
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 06:06:20 PM
If God has allowed me to be deceived by Satan all my life, then there's nothing I can do about that. God is God and there's no stopping Him. I certainly don't want my relationship with what I believe to be God to end.
It sounds to me like you don't need a fictional god or devil to communicate with you. You are doing a fine job of making up a supernatural explenation for your own thoughts and ideas. Step up, be a man and take credit for your own ideas. Don't hide behind your imaginary friend. That is what little children do.
If you haven't seen this before I highly reccomend watching it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 06:06:20 PM
...That's how it is with me. And it's been this way going on 40 years. So, let me ask you a question now: Given the experience I described to you, and given the amount of my life that it has been there, do you really think I could ever become an atheist?
Yes, you could. I have experiences like that all the time. But our interpretations of those experirences differ. In my case, I don't put a particular interpretation on it. It might be a spirit of some kind, it might be a guide (think shamanic journey), it might be my subconscious mind giving me guidance. It could be something I haven't thought of. The difference between you and I is that you believe the voice is god. I think its highly unlikely (at least as god's been defined by the various world religions I know of). I would go further, though. In my experience, I can actually see these beings (sometimes people, sometimes animals, sometimes even a plant) in what I'd call a waking dream. I was introduced to this work about 30 years ago in a therapeutic setting. It's the first time I understood what some people might be experiencing when they have a religious experience. But I don't believe that religious people have a lock on how they should interpret those experiences.
So, experience, good. Interpretation? We can't really know what that voice or those images are. At least that's my opinion, and my voices and images don't care what I call them. It's not important. What's important is that the advice, the learnings, the growth, the healing ... those things are very real and of value.
Edited to add: If the voices/images truly are god, I wonder why he/she/it takes so much time with me, an atheist? Unless god isn't what christians think it is.
Quote from: Stevil on January 24, 2012, 06:35:10 PM
Do you think it is possible that you have some issues? Many people do. Have you seen "A beautiful mind"?
I only know what I know. That question is pretty much like the "Satan" question
QuoteSo you don't care if the voices are the truth, you don't care if they lead you astray or into dispear,[despair?] or away from God? You like the voices, so you obey?
I told you once; they are not voices.
Quote22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persude him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
So god sends spirits to speak to humans, to lie to them, to lead them to their demise.
The story of Job shows that god will not protect you, he is willing to gamble with the devil, knowing that your loved ones will die, as a test to see if you love him. God offers nothing in return, no protection or loyalty for Job's dedication, no love, just a trivial gamble based on his own vanity.
God is God. What are you going to do? Do you think not believing in Him makes Him disappear?
Quote from: Traveler on January 24, 2012, 08:57:52 PM
Yes, you could. I have experiences like that all the time. But our interpretations of those experirences differ. In my case, I don't put a particular interpretation on it. It might be a spirit of some kind, it might be a guide (think shamanic journey), it might be my subconscious mind giving me guidance. It could be something I haven't thought of. The difference between you and I is that you believe the voice is god. I think its highly unlikely (at least as god's been defined by the various world religions I know of). I would go further, though. In my experience, I can actually see these beings (sometimes people, sometimes animals, sometimes even a plant) in what I'd call a waking dream. I was introduced to this work about 30 years ago in a therapeutic setting. It's the first time I understood what some people might be experiencing when they have a religious experience. But I don't believe that religious people have a lock on how they should interpret those experiences.
So, experience, good. Interpretation? We can't really know what that voice or those images are. At least that's my opinion, and my voices and images don't care what I call them. It's not important. What's important is that the advice, the learnings, the growth, the healing ... those things are very real and of value.
You don't sound like much of an atheist to me.
Quote
Edited to add: If the voices/images truly are god, I wonder why he/she/it takes so much time with me, an atheist? Unless god isn't what christians think it is.
What's interesting is that every religion has its mystics. And the mystical experience seems to be pretty much the same across all religions. The mainstream religion is often not at all like the mystical version of it. You call yourself an atheist and yet you seem to think we have similar mystical experiences, and we probably do. I attach myself to the Christian Church, probably because I have experienced profound truths hidden within the teachings of Jesus Christ and the symbols used to describe his life.
There ought to be a new religion for mystics only. Except mystics tend to be way too individualistic for anything like that, or maybe they don't need a religion--they are a religion.
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 10:43:33 PM
QuoteSo you don't care if the voices are the truth, you don't care if they lead you astray or into dispear,[despair?] or away from God? You like the voices, so you obey?
I told you once; they are not voices.
Hmmm, lets look back.
Quote
It sounds like my voice. God communicates mind-to-mind. It's like you talk to God and he talks back and then maybe for your own convenience you translate it into words. So, his voice sounds like my voice. And it is the same for everyone who hears the voice of God. They hear him in their own voice.
Voices, yeah?
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 10:43:33 PM
God is God. What are you going to do? Do you think not believing in Him makes Him disappear?
If you believe in him and his tyranny, then wouldn't you want to find a way to defeat him?
Quote from: Egor on January 24, 2012, 10:43:33 PM
...You don't sound like much of an atheist to me...
An atheist doesn't believe in god. I don't believe in god, therefore I'm an atheist. But atheist says nothing about my experiences, or anything else. In fact, there are many spiritual atheists. Those of us who seek, who have interesting experiences that are difficult to explain, and who value our intuition. None of that requires a personal god, and in my opinion is exceedingly unlikely to do with one. I'm not the stereotypical science-only atheist, no. But I've never believed in god, so I've probably been an atheist for longer than most people on this board. :)
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 24, 2012, 08:02:21 PM
It sounds to me like you don't need a fictional god or devil to communicate with you.
Given the attributes Ed has assigned his god, I'm having a hard time knowing how one would distinguish between this god and Satan?
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 01:46:47 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 24, 2012, 08:02:21 PM
It sounds to me like you don't need a fictional god or devil to communicate with you.
Given the attributes Ed has assigned his god, I'm having a hard time knowing how one would distinguish between this god and Satan?
Or this god and Egor himself? ???
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 25, 2012, 02:02:59 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 01:46:47 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 24, 2012, 08:02:21 PM
It sounds to me like you don't need a fictional god or devil to communicate with you.
Given the attributes Ed has assigned his god, I'm having a hard time knowing how one would distinguish between this god and Satan?
Or this god and Egor himself? ???
Or god and schizophrenia.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 25, 2012, 02:16:23 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 25, 2012, 02:02:59 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 01:46:47 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 24, 2012, 08:02:21 PM
It sounds to me like you don't need a fictional god or devil to communicate with you.
Given the attributes Ed has assigned his god, I'm having a hard time knowing how one would distinguish between this god and Satan?
Or this god and Egor himself? ???
Or god and schizophrenia.
God as an expression of schizophrenia -- isn't there an actual, clinical name for that?
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 03:34:23 AM
God as an expression of schizophrenia -- isn't there an actual, clinical name for that?
There ought to be, it is quite common.
One of my friends had a flatmate once with this issue.
He thought god was talking to him from the tv set.
He took some drugs to suppress this, but sometimes forgot to take them.
My dad often speaks about knowing when the rapture will come and what happens after death. Aparrently god lives within all of us.
I kinda wonder if I can put him away in a hospital somewhere. X_x...
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 25, 2012, 04:34:10 AM
My dad often speaks about knowing when the rapture will come and what happens after death. Aparrently god lives within all of us.
I kinda wonder if I can put him away in a hospital somewhere. X_x...
That's probably for the best. ;)
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 01:46:47 AM
Given the attributes Ed has assigned his god, I'm having a hard time knowing how one would distinguish between this god and Satan?
God created Satan. Satan serves a very specific purpose. Why do you act like you didn't know this before?
What is it about the term "God" you people can't get? If there is a God, there is nothing in the universe that has power over God. Not in the spiritual realm, not in the physical realm. There is nothing God is not responsible for and there is nothing you can say or do about God.
You know, it's not even about whether or not God exists; it's your complete lack of understanding as to what the term "God" with a capital G even means. I mean seriously, are you an atheist because you oppose the institutional definition of a Christian God? I cannot believe how hung up atheists are on beating down the redneck definition of God. Why don't you think about God a bit. You don't have to believe He exists, but just play a little game in your mind and imagine what the term "God" really means--if he did exist. If you come to a certain terror, then you're on the right track. That terror is the first understanding of God.
I cannot believe the shallowness of your understanding. Y'all really ought to call yourselves agnostics.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 25, 2012, 02:16:23 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 25, 2012, 02:02:59 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 01:46:47 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 24, 2012, 08:02:21 PM
It sounds to me like you don't need a fictional god or devil to communicate with you.
Given the attributes Ed has assigned his god, I'm having a hard time knowing how one would distinguish between this god and Satan?
Or this god and Egor himself? ???
Or god and schizophrenia.
Which was my point all along...
Quote from: Egor on January 25, 2012, 06:47:14 AMY'all really ought to call yourselves agnostics.
From where I stand, a lot of what atheists discuss that they have a problem with or a question about are questions and problems that I also have. I continue to look for answers, however I've not seen a single satisfactory answer to many things that atheists bring up, with regards to God being good, just, wise, perfect, consistent, loving, anything. Yet I am a theist. There are so many reasons why I've hated God for most of my life; a 10-year stint within the ranks of Christianity did nothing to persuade me, so now I have returned to my default mode. Maybe it doesn't make any sense, but I figure that's okay because from where I stand, the Universe, God, and entirely too many humans do not make sense.
Quote from: Egor on January 25, 2012, 06:47:14 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 01:46:47 AM
Given the attributes Ed has assigned his god, I'm having a hard time knowing how one would distinguish between this god and Satan?
God created Satan. Satan serves a very specific purpose. Why do you act like you didn't know this before?
Because I don't know that and, unless you can prove it, neither do you. This is just one more thing you've made up. And your version of god is very difficult to distinguish from Satan, as if you've done a mash up of the two for convenience.
QuoteWhat is it about the term "God" you people can't get? If there is a God, there is nothing in the universe that has power over God. Not in the spiritual realm, not in the physical realm. There is nothing God is not responsible for and there is nothing you can say or do about God.
What is it that you don't get that until you can prove it all you've got is a story you've made up?
QuoteYou know, it's not even about whether or not God exists; it's your complete lack of understanding as to what the term "God" with a capital G even means. I mean seriously, are you an atheist because you oppose the institutional definition of a Christian God? I cannot believe how hung up atheists are on beating down the redneck definition of God. Why don't you think about God a bit. You don't have to believe He exists, but just play a little game in your mind and imagine what the term "God" really means--if he did exist. If you come to a certain terror, then you're on the right track. That terror is the first understanding of God.
Taken a look at politics in America lately? As for the rest of it, most of us grow up thinking about god and assuming the stories everyone tells us must be real because why would anyone lie about a thing like that? It's when we really think about it that the atheism comes in, since for many of us our reaction to the closely examined idea of a god is laughter at its absurdity, not terror.
QuoteI cannot believe the shallowness of your understanding. Y'all really ought to call yourselves agnostics.
And we have a hard time believing the shallowness of your acceptance.
Quote from: Egor on January 25, 2012, 06:47:14 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 01:46:47 AM
Given the attributes Ed has assigned his god, I'm having a hard time knowing how one would distinguish between this god and Satan?
God created Satan. Satan serves a very specific purpose. Why do you act like you didn't know this before?
What is it about the term "God" you people can't get? If there is a God, there is nothing in the universe that has power over God. Not in the spiritual realm, not in the physical realm. There is nothing God is not responsible for and there is nothing you can say or do about God.
You know, it's not even about whether or not God exists; it's your complete lack of understanding as to what the term "God" with a capital G even means. I mean seriously, are you an atheist because you oppose the institutional definition of a Christian God? I cannot believe how hung up atheists are on beating down the redneck definition of God. Why don't you think about God a bit. You don't have to believe He exists, but just play a little game in your mind and imagine what the term "God" really means--if he did exist. If you come to a certain terror, then you're on the right track. That terror is the first understanding of God.
I cannot believe the shallowness of your understanding. Y'all really ought to call yourselves agnostics.
Interesting. And obviously your opinion. But your opinion is quite different from christians I've talked with about it. Can you please elaborate instead of insulting us and telling us to think about god? Many have thought about god, but obviously have not come to the same conclusion that you have. We can't read your mind, and will not know what you believe about god unless you tell us. I've heard plenty of people say that god is love. I'm confused about how terror fits in. Thanks.
Satan has always confused me. God created satan to punish those who have sinned, correct? Sure, he may lead a few people astray and then punish them for eternity. But if he is keeping the wrong doers under lock and key in hell, wouldn't that make him a jail warden in comparison? Another thing, if satan ticks god off so much, why doesn't god just kill off satan. God is an all powerful being and nothing can stand in his way, right?
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 25, 2012, 06:31:07 PM
Satan has always confused me. God created satan to punish those who have sinned, correct? Sure, he may lead a few people astray and then punish them for eternity. But if he is keeping the wrong doers under lock and key in hell, wouldn't that make him a jail warden in comparison? Another thing, if satan ticks god off so much, why doesn't god just kill off satan. God is an all powerful being and nothing can stand in his way, right?
"Satan" is from a Hebrew word for adversary. It is the adversity in life that causes us to develop into beings capable of exercising moral judgment and discerning right from wrong. Adversity is built into the fabric of the universe and the struggle created by it contributed to the evolution of the species. It has its place and purpose.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2012, 06:42:27 PM
"Satan" is from a Hebrew word for adversary. It is the adversity in life that causes us to develop into beings capable of exercising moral judgment and discerning right from wrong. Adversity is built into the fabric of the universe and the struggle created by it contributed to the evolution of the species. It has its place and purpose.
Alright, that makes sense. But what makes Satan truly "evil"?
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 25, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2012, 06:42:27 PM
"Satan" is from a Hebrew word for adversary. It is the adversity in life that causes us to develop into beings capable of exercising moral judgment and discerning right from wrong. Adversity is built into the fabric of the universe and the struggle created by it contributed to the evolution of the species. It has its place and purpose.
Alright, that makes sense. But what makes Satan truly "evil"?
Opposite of Good. It's 'design' is to harm.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 06:58:05 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 25, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2012, 06:42:27 PM
"Satan" is from a Hebrew word for adversary. It is the adversity in life that causes us to develop into beings capable of exercising moral judgment and discerning right from wrong. Adversity is built into the fabric of the universe and the struggle created by it contributed to the evolution of the species. It has its place and purpose.
Alright, that makes sense. But what makes Satan truly "evil"?
Opposite of Good. It's 'design' is to harm.
As opposed to the "good" not harming in the cases of the plagues of Egypt, the world-wide flood, making bears maul children, ordering people to bash babies on rocks... etc.
Quote from: Davin on January 25, 2012, 07:19:43 PM
As opposed to the "good" not harming in the cases of the plagues of Egypt, the world-wide flood, making bears maul children, ordering people to bash babies on rocks... etc.
Something like that.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 07:25:31 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 25, 2012, 07:19:43 PM
As opposed to the "good" not harming in the cases of the plagues of Egypt, the world-wide flood, making bears maul children, ordering people to bash babies on rocks... etc.
Something like that.
Just compare the body counts, the "opposite of good" has harmed far fewer than the "good." So much so, that it's kind of hilarious that one would even try to imply that the supposed "evil" is designed to harm.
Quote from: Davin on January 25, 2012, 07:33:39 PM
Just compare the body counts, the "opposite of good" has harmed far fewer than the "good." So much so, that it's kind of hilarious that one would even try to imply that the supposed "evil" is designed to harm.
It is as you say*.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 03:57:00 PM
Because I don't know that and, unless you can prove it, neither do you.
Prove what? You're the one who brought it up. You're the atheist with all the cares and concerns about Satan. If you don't believe in Satan, then stop worrying about him.
QuoteThis is just one more thing you've made up. And your version of god is very difficult to distinguish from Satan, as if you've done a mash up of the two for convenience.
Allow me to school you: If there is a God, and if there is a Satan, God would have had to create Satan. If God created Satan, we can assume it was for a reason.
If there is no God. Then who gives a damn about any of this conversation we're having?
QuoteWhat is it that you don't get that until you can prove it all you've got is a story you've made up?
There is no proof you would accept. None. Even if you saw the dead rise again. Even if you saw a missing limb restored, you would simply say that it's a natural process we don't yet understand. You look at gravity and say that. You look at electromagnetism and say that. You look at dark matter and say that. You look at the Big Bang and say that. You want proof of a version of God that doesn't exist. You want proof of some YAWEH mythology that just isn't true, and you demand proof of that type of god because you don't ever really want proof at all. You like being an atheist and you want the real God to accept you that way. Ain't gonna happen.
QuoteTaken a look at politics in America lately? As for the rest of it, most of us grow up thinking about god and assuming the stories everyone tells us must be real because why would anyone lie about a thing like that? It's when we really think about it that the atheism comes in, since for many of us our reaction to the closely examined idea of a god is laughter at its absurdity, not terror.
Oh, I see. So you're still operating on the level of a child who just found out there was no Santa Claus. And you think this makes you enlightened? If there is a God, and if you think about it, you will realize that said God is also the God of the insect kingdom. He is also the God that gave dogs and cats really long canine teeth. He's also the God that makes a tree that produces a ton of leaves just for them to all dry up and be burned once a year. Or the gravity that fatally pulls one to the ground. Or the creator of the Third Reich.
You say I mix up God and Satan. No I don't. I think about it clearly, and I realize who God is and what He is capable of.
I've never had a problem with the concept of hell. I'm very medieaval about it. I feel as right about it as Jesus Christ did, because I understand the utter and complete justice of it. I understand the righteousness of it.
You just can't reconcile the pictures you've seen of a smiling Jesus with a child on his lap and a lamb at his feet and a God who would give you cancer just to bring you to the spiritual place He designed you to be at. So you think you can just close your eyes and say He's not there. What mercy He shows you in giving you time.
If you don't like Christianity, you can have your own religion. You could be a mystic if you wanted to be and flavor it with any or all the religions of the world. What you have no excuse for is atheism.
In my humble opinion. :-*
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 25, 2012, 06:52:13 PMAlright, that makes sense. But what makes Satan truly "evil"?
Probably a messy divorce and a painful, ongoing heat rash.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 25, 2012, 08:08:48 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 25, 2012, 06:52:13 PMAlright, that makes sense. But what makes Satan truly "evil"?
Probably a messy divorce and a painful, ongoing heat rash.
I dont know what that means but it's provocative and funny. :D
I don't understand where this discussion is going.
God's perfection cannot (even by lighter terms) be defined by the amount of harm is done to our corporeal vessel, especially if the eternal soul is transported later to another plain.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
Satan may in fact be an adversary, but not to God, to man.
Deconstructing the Christian god's perfection can only be done in reference to the actualities that the belief is based on, and it's based in the Bible.
You can't take what we understand about killing being wrong and say that because a god created a great flood (By the way this story was originally about Gilgamesh not Noah, this is one of the thousands of reasons why it's obvious that the Bible is a fabrication) that that god did or didn't do evil when that doesn't apply to his "perfection".
Since the Bible says we can't know his plan and the Bible already protected themselves against other beliefs by labeling anyone who doesn't believe or believes something else as a follower of Satan. You can't even question what your elders or religious leaders say without following Satan. How perfect is your religious belief where you cannot even ask why something is one way or another.
How does this show the perfection in the Christian god? At least the Greek gods had flaws, that would be easier to believe ;-)
So to question a god's perfection, you would be to look at his creations, as the Bible would have us believe that all you need to do in order to see the Christian god's handy work is to look at how beautiful everything is...
Do you not see god's perfection in everything you see?
Quote from: Egor on January 25, 2012, 07:44:43 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 03:57:00 PM
Because I don't know that and, unless you can prove it, neither do you.
Prove what? You're the one who brought it up. You're the atheist with all the cares and concerns about Satan. If you don't believe in Satan, then stop worrying about him.
Atheist don't care about mythical superstitious fantacies. But theists of all sorts do keep coming hear and telling us about them, so you raised the subject of mythology, institiotionalised superstitions and unvarifiable personal beliefs/ faiths.
Ed, pull up a chair, I want to talk to you.
Yes, that one is fine.
Ed, I am concerned. The more you post, the more it appears you need some kind of assistance with a little thing we like to call reality. So far, you have proclaimed your unwavering faith and eternal love and servitude to an unseen, spectral super being with infinite cosmic power who speaks to you as a voice in your head. You make wild and wholly unsubstantiated claims of this being's unlimited magical might and then can't understand why we don't "get it."
The thing is, we do get it.
You're suffering from an all too familiar condition that has stricken far too many people and left them subjugated to an elaborate, and frankly, preposterous fantasy that exists solely in their own minds. We call this condition, Religion. It's a communicable disorder that is spread among people by exposure to the Religion virus. Once exposed, the sufferer will spend a lifetime worshipping, praying, exalting, and basically kissing the ass of a being who exists on the same plane as Bugs Bunny, Mother Goose and Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.
What's so amazing to us is that YOU don't get THAT.
Just wanted to point that out.
And just FYI...
I have known and argued with many Xians over the years and many of them have been perfectly lovely people who simply suffer from this one unfortunate condition. That hasn't made them incapable of having relationships with atheists nor to proclaim a blind and ignorant hatred for them as you do on your blogsite. One of my oldest and best friends is a devout Xian who is married to an even devouterer Xian. Both of them love me and even trust me to be alone with their baby, blissfully unaware of my plan to corrupt the child and lead him into the black pit of atheism where I will feast upon his bones and make a keychain out of his left foot.
Quote from: Egor on January 25, 2012, 07:44:43 PM
If there is no God. Then who gives a damn about any of this conversation we're having?
If you don't like Christianity, you can have your own religion. You could be a mystic if you wanted to be and flavor it with any or all the religions of the world. What you have no excuse for is atheism.
Christianity must be opposed when it leads people to vilify others (e.g. gays), or when it forces people to suffer (e.g. anti euthanasia), or when it causes people to pick up weapons and kill others (e.g. the Crusades, the Norway massacre), or when it persecutes people whom do not belong to its exclusive group (e.g. many, many incidents in the Bible Belt).
Atheists are right to want to understand ho a Christian can read the bible and then do these horrid things. Atheists need to understand the minds of the Christians so that we can attempt to convince them to behave nicely within society. Atheists are right to be confused when a Christian states that their god is loving and perfect despite the atrocities documented in the bible.
Atheism needs no excuse, nobody had killed, murdered, tortured, massacred, oppressed in the name of Atheism.
A disbelief in god is the only rational option given there is no evidence of any god, there isn't even a clear definition of what a god is.
Quote from: superfes on January 25, 2012, 08:38:28 PM
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
Is this to point out that God creates evil? If so, I find it slightly laughable while I
would agree in this measure; If God creates light, then by the very nature of light, darkness is also created, not by purpose, but by definition.
Quote from: Egor on January 25, 2012, 07:44:43 PM
There is no proof you would accept. None.
I would accept answered prayer as proof.
If we could see a clear and repeatable advantage given to event that were prayed for (to the right god) as opposed to events prayed for (to the wrong god), or events not prayed for, then I would be a believer. No doubt.
Why is it that prayed for events statistically look exactly the same as events that weren't prayed for?
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 25, 2012, 06:52:13 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2012, 06:42:27 PM
"Satan" is from a Hebrew word for adversary. It is the adversity in life that causes us to develop into beings capable of exercising moral judgment and discerning right from wrong. Adversity is built into the fabric of the universe and the struggle created by it contributed to the evolution of the species. It has its place and purpose.
Alright, that makes sense. But what makes Satan truly "evil"?
My take on this is a little different. Since Satan operates within God's will, and all that God created was "good," Satan's activities, while "evil" locally, function as a part of The Ultimate Good (the reconciliation of the cosmos with God). So the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil (part of the metaphor in early Genesis), all function to carry out an ultimate plan of God. The "evil" is on temporary, and assists in bringing about The Ultimate Good.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2012, 09:18:13 PM
My take on this is a little different. Since Satan operates within God's will, and all that God created was "good," Satan's activities, while "evil" locally, function as a part of The Ultimate Good (the reconciliation of the cosmos with God). So the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil (part of the metaphor in early Genesis), all function to carry out an ultimate plan of God. The "evil" is on temporary, and assists in bringing about The Ultimate Good.
Your definition of Original Sin...prior to Man's?
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 25, 2012, 08:54:29 PM
One of my oldest and best friends is a devout Xian who is married to an even devouterer Xian. Both of them love me and even trust me to be alone with their baby, blissfully unaware of my plan to corrupt the child and lead him into the black pit of atheism where I will feast upon his bones and make a keychain out of his left foot.
That's a new one...
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 25, 2012, 09:30:18 PMThat's a new one...
I pride myself on thinking out of the box.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 09:28:58 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2012, 09:18:13 PM
My take on this is a little different. Since Satan operates within God's will, and all that God created was "good," Satan's activities, while "evil" locally, function as a part of The Ultimate Good (the reconciliation of the cosmos with God). So the serpent and the tree of knowledge of good and evil (part of the metaphor in early Genesis), all function to carry out an ultimate plan of God. The "evil" is on temporary, and assists in bringing about The Ultimate Good.
Your definition of Original Sin...prior to Man's?
I've moved away from that doctrine somewhat. The Adam & Eve metaphor deals with what happens in each individual, not mankind as a whole. Being "in Adam" simply means that we are human. The reason we tend toward sin is our own innate self-centeredness, not something literal that happened in the Garden of Eden thousands of years ago.
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 10:21:24 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 25, 2012, 10:15:51 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 25, 2012, 09:30:18 PMThat's a new one...
I pride myself on thinking out of the box.
Is there a box?
There IS a box. I can't prove it conclusively but if you have faith in the box it will make itself known to you so you can think out of it too.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2012, 10:28:44 PM
I've move away from that doctrine somewhat. The Adam & Eve metaphor deals with what happens in each individual, not mankind as a whole. Being "in Adam" simply means that we are human. The reason we tend toward sin is our own innate self-centeredness, not something literal that happened in the Garden of Eden thousands of years ago.
I didn't mean the sin of Adam and Eve. Clearly (or not) sin existed prior to Adam and Eve. Maybe I'm confusing the term for this as Original Sin. I meant the Serpent...Satan...Lucifer's sin. (Ezekiel 28:11-19) How he went from Lucifer to Serpent/Satan/Devil.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 25, 2012, 10:33:55 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 10:21:24 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 25, 2012, 10:15:51 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 25, 2012, 09:30:18 PMThat's a new one...
I pride myself on thinking out of the box.
Is there a box?
There IS a box. I can't prove it conclusively but if you have faith in the box it will make itself known to you so you can think out of it too.
Just like the neutrino my thoughts pass through everything as if it isn't there.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 10:48:17 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2012, 10:28:44 PM
I've move away from that doctrine somewhat. The Adam & Eve metaphor deals with what happens in each individual, not mankind as a whole. Being "in Adam" simply means that we are human. The reason we tend toward sin is our own innate self-centeredness, not something literal that happened in the Garden of Eden thousands of years ago.
I didn't mean the sin of Adam and Eve. Clearly (or not) sin existed prior to Adam and Eve. Maybe I'm confusing the term for this as Original Sin. I meant the Serpent...Satan...Lucifer's sin. (Ezekiel 28:11-19) How he went from Lucifer to Serpent/Satan/Devil.
There's a metaphorical account of this in Ezekiel 28, with Satan personified as the King of Tyre. Verse 17 indicates that his "heart was lifted up because of (his) beauty." In other words, self-centeredness. If you want to find an original sin, that's it. To a degree, self-centeredness or selfishness
is Satan, the adversary.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 26, 2012, 01:36:02 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 10:48:17 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2012, 10:28:44 PM
I've move away from that doctrine somewhat. The Adam & Eve metaphor deals with what happens in each individual, not mankind as a whole. Being "in Adam" simply means that we are human. The reason we tend toward sin is our own innate self-centeredness, not something literal that happened in the Garden of Eden thousands of years ago.
I didn't mean the sin of Adam and Eve. Clearly (or not) sin existed prior to Adam and Eve. Maybe I'm confusing the term for this as Original Sin. I meant the Serpent...Satan...Lucifer's sin. (Ezekiel 28:11-19) How he went from Lucifer to Serpent/Satan/Devil.
There's a metaphorical account of this in Ezekiel 28, with Satan personified as the King of Tyre. Verse 17 indicates that his "heart was lifted up because of (his) beauty." In other words, self-centeredness. If you want to find an original sin, that's it. To a degree, self-centeredness or selfishness is Satan, the adversary.
AD and Bruce, you guys may or may not find this an interesting read but I have read though heaps of Kevin Crady's posts and find they make a good read.
I haven't read or studied the bible so am not sure how accurate Kevin's posts could be, however he sounds intimately familiar with the bible.
Satan and the Serpent (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=4028.msg59468#msg59468)
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 01:48:20 AM
AD and Bruce, you guys may or may not find this an interesting read but I have read though heaps of Kevin Crady's posts and find they make a good read.
I haven't read or studied the bible so am not sure how accurate Kevin's posts could be, however he sounds intimately familiar with the bible.
Satan and the Serpent (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=4028.msg59468#msg59468)
Interesting take on it. On one occasion in the NT, Jesus even referred to Peter, his main disciple, as "satan." Peter was his adversary on that occasion. So rather than Satan being a demon with a pitchfork, he can be seen as whatever adversarial forces oppose the will of God. However, since all such forces ultimately owe their existence to God, they were part of his "good" universe, and are intended to work in such a way so that the end-result desired by God will be accomplished. "Satan" is part of that ultimate plan.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 26, 2012, 01:59:49 AM
Interesting take on it. On one occasion in the NT, Jesus even referred to Peter, his main disciple, as "satan." Peter was his adversary on that occasion. So rather than Satan being a demon with a pitchfork, he can be seen as whatever adversarial forces oppose the will of God. However, since all such forces ultimately owe their existence to God, they were part of his "good" universe, and are intended to work in such a way so that the end-result desired by God will be accomplished. "Satan" is part of that ultimate plan.
Does Satan have to mean adversary of god or could it simply mean adversary (of anyone)?
Quote from: Egor on January 25, 2012, 07:44:43 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 03:57:00 PM
Because I don't know that and, unless you can prove it, neither do you.
Prove what? You're the one who brought it up. You're the atheist with all the cares and concerns about Satan. If you don't believe in Satan, then stop worrying about him.
I'd thought you brought it up, claiming there was a god and it created Satan tho you can offer no proof for any of this so it remains a very unbelievable story of yours. And I can't stop worrying about Satan because of those rednecks you mentioned and the political situation I mentioned -- I'd love to shrug these silly stories off but the religiously-fueled political train wreck I fear is coming makes that impossible.
Quote from: EdQuote from: BCEThis is just one more thing you've made up. And your version of god is very difficult to distinguish from Satan, as if you've done a mash up of the two for convenience.
Allow me to school you: If there is a God, and if there is a Satan, God would have had to create Satan. If God created Satan, we can assume it was for a reason.
If there is no God. Then who gives a damn about any of this conversation we're having?
Again with the stories and assumptions. And again: rednecks, politics, religiously-fueled train wreck.
Quote from: EdQuote from: BCEWhat is it that you don't get that until you can prove it all you've got is a story you've made up?
There is no proof you would accept. None.
Actually, there was a thread about that and a number of people gave examples of what would convince them a god did, or at least might well, exist.
Quote from: EdEven if you saw the dead rise again. Even if you saw a missing limb restored, you would simply say that it's a natural process we don't yet understand. You look at gravity and say that. You look at electromagnetism and say that. You look at dark matter and say that. You look at the Big Bang and say that. You want proof of a version of God that doesn't exist. You want proof of some YAWEH mythology that just isn't true, and you demand proof of that type of god because you don't ever really want proof at all. You like being an atheist and you want the real God to accept you that way. Ain't gonna happen.
Now you're saying god is nature? I could actually go along with that part of it, but that doesn't seem to be what you mean elsewhere, in this and other threads.
Quote from: EdQuote from: BCETaken a look at politics in America lately? As for the rest of it, most of us grow up thinking about god and assuming the stories everyone tells us must be real because why would anyone lie about a thing like that? It's when we really think about it that the atheism comes in, since for many of us our reaction to the closely examined idea of a god is laughter at its absurdity, not terror.
Oh, I see. So you're still operating on the level of a child who just found out there was no Santa Claus. And you think this makes you enlightened? If there is a God, and if you think about it, you will realize that said God is also the God of the insect kingdom. He is also the God that gave dogs and cats really long canine teeth. He's also the God that makes a tree that produces a ton of leaves just for them to all dry up and be burned once a year. Or the gravity that fatally pulls one to the ground. Or the creator of the Third Reich.
Now god is the same as both nature and human weakness -- is nothing more than a completely arbitrary force? I could also go along with that but it also does not seem to be what you've written about elsewhere.
Quote from: EdYou say I mix up God and Satan. No I don't. I think about it clearly, and I realize who God is and what He is capable of.
Which includes things that are, by any definition, satanic. So really, how do you distinguish god from Satan if your god is doing it all?
Quote from: EdI've never had a problem with the concept of hell. I'm very medieaval about it. I feel as right about it as Jesus Christ did, because I understand the utter and complete justice of it. I understand the righteousness of it.
You just can't reconcile the pictures you've seen of a smiling Jesus with a child on his lap and a lamb at his feet and a God who would give you cancer just to bring you to the spiritual place He designed you to be at. So you think you can just close your eyes and say He's not there. What mercy He shows you in giving you time.
If you don't like Christianity, you can have your own religion. You could be a mystic if you wanted to be and flavor it with any or all the religions of the world. What you have no excuse for is atheism.
In my humble opinion. :-*
So I'm just being stubborn in not believing your stories? I've got an invisible dragon in my garage anytime you want to drop by and worship it.
Quote from: superfes on January 25, 2012, 08:38:28 PM
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
I must say, I am 47 years old, and I've been a Christian for about 40 of those years, and I've never, not once, seen that verse. In all the churches I've been to, in all the books I have read, it has never been preached. In fact, it has always been the opposite. I am simply astounded that that's in the Bible.
I've always believed it based on the teachings of Jesus Christ and just the logic of the idea of "God" but I had no idea the Bible said it so directly.
What about all this talk of being all-good? What about theodicy? If it says it so plainly right there in the Bible, why have people tried to make God out to be all loving and all-indulging and all-forgiving, and all warm and fuzzy?
If I went into any Christian forum right now and said, "God makes evil." I'd be banned instantly. They'd think I was a blasphemous troll.
You know, I'm beginning to think you can call yourself a Christian and simply believe and espouse anything you want. Perhaps everyone is supposed to make up their own Christianity. Maybe that's what God wanted all along, not a thousand different interpretations of Jesus Christ, but 6 billion.
Quote from: Tank on January 25, 2012, 08:48:09 PM
Atheist don't care about mythical superstitious fantacies.
Oh BS, it's all you ever talk about. This whole forum is dedicated to it. If you didn't care, if you were a true atheist, you'd just walk away and go live out your life.
You're not an atheist. You're just looking for someone to prove God to you.
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 09:10:55 PM
Christianity must be opposed when it leads people to vilify others (e.g. gays), or when it forces people to suffer (e.g. anti euthanasia), or when it causes people to pick up weapons and kill others (e.g. the Crusades, the Norway massacre), or when it persecutes people whom do not belong to its exclusive group (e.g. many, many incidents in the Bible Belt).
Wait a minute. I'm a Christian and I don't care one bit about gays. Jesus never mentioned them, so I don't give a damn. Sorry, but they're not special to me. I do believe in euthanasia, and are you really going to bring up a war that's 600 years old? As for the Norway masacare that guy was insane, and I have no idea what your last point is talking about. If you need to think of Christians in that light in order to maintain your atheism--have at it. It doesn't change a thing.
QuoteAtheists are right to want to understand ho a Christian can read the bible and then do these horrid things. Atheists need to understand the minds of the Christians so that we can attempt to convince them to behave nicely within society. Atheists are right to be confused when a Christian states that their god is loving and perfect despite the atrocities documented in the bible.
Western Society is built on Christianity; atheism would at best create a Soviet or North Korean type of society. It is you whom society has to be protected from.
QuoteAtheism needs no excuse, nobody had killed, murdered, tortured, massacred, oppressed in the name of Atheism.
A disbelief in god is the only rational option given there is no evidence of any god, there isn't even a clear definition of what a god is.
That's why I'm writing a book even now.
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 09:16:31 PM
I would accept answered prayer as proof.
If we could see a clear and repeatable advantage given to event that were prayed for (to the right god) as opposed to events prayed for (to the wrong god), or events not prayed for, then I would be a believer. No doubt.
Why is it that prayed for events statistically look exactly the same as events that weren't prayed for?
I don't know. You'd have to ask Jesus, because he seemed pretty adamant in the desert when he was talking with Satan that God could not be put to the test. You see, I've had so many answered prayers in my life that I simply can't agree with you. But I realize my answered prayers won't convince you--they can't. You would have to have answered prayers in your own life, but you don't pray. Therefore, like I said, there is no proof you will accept.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 04:48:09 AM
...You know, I'm beginning to think you can call yourself a Christian and simply believe and espouse anything you want....
This is the conclusion I'm coming to. I've got a lot of still-muddled thoughts that I want to explore, but can't seem to make sense enough of them to write them down yet. But the gist is that people seem to believe what they want, and as long as it roughly aligns with a particular religion or congregation within a religion, they call themselves that. I think this is a part of why debates with christians can be so frustrating, because christianity is a moving target. Far better, perhaps, to admit that all of us are walking our own paths. Some paths are closer to others, but a church that claims all its people are on the same exact path is probably deceiving themselves.
QuoteOh BS, it's all you ever talk about. This whole forum is dedicated to it. If you didn't care, if you were a true atheist, you'd just walk away and go live out your life.
You're not an atheist. You're just looking for someone to prove God to you.
I don't understand why, Egor, you seem to think anyone who discusses religion can't be an atheist. I discuss skydiving and I have no wish to throw myself out of a perfectly good airplane. I discuss a variety of political systems, but find most of them completely ass-backwards. I live in a country that's being taken over by fundamentalist bible-literalists. It's truly frightening. I want to understand what I'm up against. Not to mention there are lots of wonderful people here and a good philosophical discussion gets the blood
flowing pumping. ;)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 26, 2012, 01:59:49 AM
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 01:48:20 AM
AD and Bruce, you guys may or may not find this an interesting read but I have read though heaps of Kevin Crady's posts and find they make a good read.
I haven't read or studied the bible so am not sure how accurate Kevin's posts could be, however he sounds intimately familiar with the bible.
Satan and the Serpent (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=4028.msg59468#msg59468)
Interesting take on it. On one occasion in the NT, Jesus even referred to Peter, his main disciple, as "satan." Peter was his adversary on that occasion. So rather than Satan being a demon with a pitchfork, he can be seen as whatever adversarial forces oppose the will of God. However, since all such forces ultimately owe their existence to God, they were part of his "good" universe, and are intended to work in such a way so that the end-result desired by God will be accomplished. "Satan" is part of that ultimate plan.
Bruce, I just wanted to point out that this is your 665th post. ;D
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 04:50:52 AM
Quote from: Tank on January 25, 2012, 08:48:09 PM
Atheist don't care about mythical superstitious fantacies.
Oh BS, it's all you ever talk about. This whole forum is dedicated to it. If you didn't care, if you were a true atheist, you'd just walk away and go live out your life.
You're not an atheist. You're just looking for someone to prove God to you.
I have never been a comunist, but I have studied and debated about comunism. I have never been a nazi, but I have studied and had very interresting discussions regarding the rise and fall of Nazi Germany.
I don't get to vote in the american elections, but the effect they have on world politics mean that it is not possible for an informed person such as myself not to have an opinion on them.
Same thing with religion. I do not follow any religion, but religions influence in the lives of bilions, means that it is not something I can simply ignore, despite the fact that I don't personally believe in any of them.
You don't have to be religious to have an opinion regarding religion anymore then you need to be a concert pianist to have an opinion about Mozart.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 04:50:52 AM
Quote from: Tank on January 25, 2012, 08:48:09 PM
Atheist don't care about mythical superstitious fantasies.
Oh BS, it's all you ever talk about. This whole forum is dedicated to it. If you didn't care, if you were a true atheist, you'd just walk away and go live out your life.
You're not an atheist. You're just looking for someone to prove God to you.
I see your point. But it's wrong.
I care about the effects mythical superstitious fantasies have on people and how they influence their behavior. Because their behaviour impacts on my life, e.g. Islamist terrorists activity has curtailed my freedom to wander around and take photos in towns without being stopped and being accused of being a terrorist spy (I kid you not). If theists didn't try to get their own way all the time I wouldn't give a shit what they believed. But they don't do they? Your behaviour is the quintessential example of theistic intolerance and bad manners. Some of the comments on your blog are nothing short of hate speech. You came here to preach, nobody invited you. You spew your hatred all over the internet. You are the sort of person that causes atheists to become active in their criticism of theism. You're not the solution, you're the problem.
Do you see people criticising Buddhism here? No. Mainly because Buddhists keep themselves to themselves and their teachings are mostly harmless. Evangelical Christians and Muslims are really just a complete fucking pain in the arse, for everybody!
I am an atheist, whether you like it or not. But I'm a 6 on the Dawkins scale and I would love somebody to show definitive evidence of the supernatural. It would be the ultimate Nobel prize. So lay out your God hypothesis and then do the research, publish the papers, then get them peer-reviewed and then convince all the other theists (Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists etc) you are right and then, and only then, I'll start paying attention to what you have to say. Until then all I see is personal egotism driving wishful thinking. Sorry.
For decades I didn't involve myself with religion or a-religion. Then I read The God Delusion and joined RDF simply to meet theists and discuss their beliefs. What I found utterly disgusted me. In particular that people who hold world views like you and behave like you actually existed! I could not believe how bad mannered, rude, disingenuous, nasty, mean-spirited and down right bad SOME theists are. It was a revelation to me. In my naivety I though all Christians were basically good people with an odd view of reality. Boy was I wrong!
So now I stand up to people like you who are full of hate and would supress free speach and freedom of expression.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 05:00:34 AM
Western Society is built on Christianity; atheism would at best create a Soviet or North Korean type of society. It is you whom society has to be protected from.
That's a fallacy
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 08:16:03 AM
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 05:00:34 AM
Western Society is built on Christianity; atheism would at best create a Soviet or North Korean type of society. It is you whom society has to be protected from.
That's a fallacy
See 'Sweden'.
Quote from: Tank on January 26, 2012, 08:17:24 AM
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 08:16:03 AM
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 05:00:34 AM
Western Society is built on Christianity; atheism would at best create a Soviet or North Korean type of society. It is you whom society has to be protected from.
That's a fallacy
See 'Sweden'.
Or Norway.
Or Japan.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 05:05:45 AM
I don't know. You'd have to ask Jesus, because he seemed pretty adamant in the desert when he was talking with Satan that God could not be put to the test. You see, I've had so many answered prayers in my life that I simply can't agree with you. But I realize my answered prayers won't convince you--they can't. You would have to have answered prayers in your own life, but you don't pray. Therefore, like I said, there is no proof you will accept.
I wouldn't accept personally answered prayer as proof of anything. How would I know the favourable event wouldn't have happened anyway?
I would need to see statistical results of a large sample, with a control group, repeated by several different facilitators showing clearly consistent results, consistently favorable for the same prayer made to the same god.
If Heaven is full of people like Egor then I claim it is functionally impossible for it to be a paradise.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 26, 2012, 02:38:10 PMIf Heaven is full of people like Egor then I claim it is functionally impossible for it to be a paradise.
Egor was sent by god, to make sure no atheists convert to Christianity.
Quote from: Davin on January 26, 2012, 02:43:00 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 26, 2012, 02:38:10 PMIf Heaven is full of people like Egor then I claim it is functionally impossible for it to be a paradise.
Egor was sent by god, to make sure no atheists convert to Christianity.
Haha. All part of the plan.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 26, 2012, 01:36:02 AM
There's a metaphorical account of this in Ezekiel 28, with Satan personified as the King of Tyre. Verse 17 indicates that his "heart was lifted up because of (his) beauty." In other words, self-centeredness. If you want to find an original sin, that's it. To a degree, self-centeredness or selfishness is Satan, the adversary.
Which makes me wonder; Is Satan a real being in your reckoning or is "he" just a force (like gravity)?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 04:05:54 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 26, 2012, 01:36:02 AM
There's a metaphorical account of this in Ezekiel 28, with Satan personified as the King of Tyre. Verse 17 indicates that his "heart was lifted up because of (his) beauty." In other words, self-centeredness. If you want to find an original sin, that's it. To a degree, self-centeredness or selfishness is Satan, the adversary.
Which makes me wonder; Is Satan a real being in your reckoning or is "he" just a force (like gravity)?
Even though gravity is an "invisible" force we can still detect it...
Quote from: Traveler on January 26, 2012, 05:23:02 AM
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 04:48:09 AM
...You know, I'm beginning to think you can call yourself a Christian and simply believe and espouse anything you want....
This is the conclusion I'm coming to. I've got a lot of still-muddled thoughts that I want to explore, but can't seem to make sense enough of them to write them down yet. But the gist is that people seem to believe what they want, and as long as it roughly aligns with a particular religion or congregation within a religion, they call themselves that. I think this is a part of why debates with christians can be so frustrating, because christianity is a moving target.
This is so true. I have found this time and again when I am trying to debate AnimatedDirt about Christianity (sorry AD, not to call you out or anything. Smooches) I'll say something along the lines of "Well, if Christians believe X then how can they believe Y?" And he'll say "Christians don't all believe that. I don't." I'm trying to debate from the version of Christianity that I was brought up in, but unless he is extremely specific about what he believes on any given subject, I'm always getting a swing and a miss because apparently we come from very different traditions of Christianity. We seem to not have a common reference point to debate from.
Quote from: Traveler on January 26, 2012, 05:23:02 AM
I think this is a part of why debates with christians can be so frustrating, because christianity is a moving target.
That's a good point.
QuoteFar better, perhaps, to admit that all of us are walking our own paths. Some paths are closer to others, but a church that claims all its people are on the same exact path is probably deceiving themselves.
Yes. Or the congregation is spiritually dead. It seems to me everyone has to walk their own path.
It's like accepting Jesus as one's personal savior, what does that mean? Does that mean to accept the historical figure, or the idea of Christ. For instance, let's say I'm a theist and deny the real existence of Jesus Christ, but I believe in the symbol of Jesus Christ and follow the teachings laid out in the Gospels, have I accepted Jesus Christ or not?
QuoteOh BS, it's all you ever talk about. This whole forum is dedicated to it. If you didn't care, if you were a true atheist, you'd just walk away and go live out your life.
You're not an atheist. You're just looking for someone to prove God to you.
QuoteI don't understand why, Egor, you seem to think anyone who discusses religion can't be an atheist. I discuss skydiving and I have no wish to throw myself out of a perfectly good airplane. I discuss a variety of political systems, but find most of them completely ass-backwards. I live in a country that's being taken over by fundamentalist bible-literalists. It's truly frightening. I want to understand what I'm up against. Not to mention there are lots of wonderful people here and a good philosophical discussion gets the blood flowing pumping. ;)
Fair enough.
Quote from: Tank on January 26, 2012, 07:50:02 AM
I see your point. But it's wrong.
I care about the effects mythical superstitious fantasies have on people and how they influence their behavior. Because their behaviour impacts on my life, e.g. Islamist terrorists activity has curtailed my freedom to wander around and take photos in towns without being stopped and being accused of being a terrorist spy (I kid you not). If theists didn't try to get their own way all the time I wouldn't give a shit what they believed. But they don't do they? Your behaviour is the quintessential example of theistic intolerance and bad manners. Some of the comments on your blog are nothing short of hate speech. You came here to preach, nobody invited you. You spew your hatred all over the internet. You are the sort of person that causes atheists to become active in their criticism of theism. You're not the solution, you're the problem.
Do you see people criticising Buddhism here? No. Mainly because Buddhists keep themselves to themselves and their teachings are mostly harmless. Evangelical Christians and Muslims are really just a complete fucking pain in the arse, for everybody!
I am an atheist, whether you like it or not. But I'm a 6 on the Dawkins scale and I would love somebody to show definitive evidence of the supernatural. It would be the ultimate Nobel prize. So lay out your God hypothesis and then do the research, publish the papers, then get them peer-reviewed and then convince all the other theists (Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists etc) you are right and then, and only then, I'll start paying attention to what you have to say. Until then all I see is personal egotism driving wishful thinking. Sorry.
For decades I didn't involve myself with religion or a-religion. Then I read The God Delusion and joined RDF simply to meet theists and discuss their beliefs. What I found utterly disgusted me. In particular that people who hold world views like you and behave like you actually existed! I could not believe how bad mannered, rude, disingenuous, nasty, mean-spirited and down right bad SOME theists are. It was a revelation to me. In my naivety I though all Christians were basically good people with an odd view of reality. Boy was I wrong!
So now I stand up to people like you who are full of hate and would supress free speach and freedom of expression.
There's no hate speech on my blog. You seem to think any dissenting view directed at atheism is an insult and hate speech, but you're the only one using foul language and hurling personal insults. I don't do that.
Quote from: Ali on January 26, 2012, 04:56:56 PM
This is so true. I have found this time and again when I am trying to debate AnimatedDirt about Christianity (sorry AD, not to call you out or anything. Smooches) I'll say something along the lines of "Well, if Christians believe X then how can they believe Y?" And he'll say "Christians don't all believe that. I don't." I'm trying to debate from the version of Christianity that I was brought up in, but unless he is extremely specific about what he believes on any given subject, I'm always getting a swing and a miss because apparently we come from very different traditions of Christianity. We seem to not have a common reference point to debate from.
Honestly, you make a good point. I don't think Christians as a group even agree on a definition of what God is. Some really do think He is like a very large man on a throne in a distant place called heaven. But I don't think that. I think God is a spirit and the only body he has is the entirety of the physical universe. Which means, quite literally, I have a different God than some other Christians do, and I firmly believe their God does not exist, and I am certain mine does.
Some people believe Jesus will return in the clouds and recapture Christians in a rapture. I don't. I think the "second coming" of Christ occurs when a human being is transformed into the person of Christ. Most Christians believe Matthew 24 is talking about Christ's second coming, but I think it's talking about the literal end of the universe, and that could be a long way off.
If you were to compare my definition of God to, say, Fred Phelps's definition of God—we wouldn't be the same religion, and yet we both call ourselves Christians. In fact, my definition of God (The monistic entity of fundamental consciousness) leads one far away from traditional evangelical Christianity.
But I am a Christian. I am because I do my best to understand and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ as outlined in the four Gospels of the New Testament, but those are about the only books of the Bible I read, and yet I know them almost by heart. So, what else am I going to call myself? I am a follower of Christ and hope one day to be transformed into the person of Christ.
I apologize for writing so much on this, but this is kind of a new revelation for me. Perhaps there never was supposed to be a Christian religion. Perhaps we were all supposed to look at the life and teachings of Jesus Christ and make up our own religion.
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 02:04:48 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 26, 2012, 01:59:49 AM
Interesting take on it. On one occasion in the NT, Jesus even referred to Peter, his main disciple, as "satan." Peter was his adversary on that occasion. So rather than Satan being a demon with a pitchfork, he can be seen as whatever adversarial forces oppose the will of God. However, since all such forces ultimately owe their existence to God, they were part of his "good" universe, and are intended to work in such a way so that the end-result desired by God will be accomplished. "Satan" is part of that ultimate plan.
Does Satan have to mean adversary of god or could it simply mean adversary (of anyone)?
I think the word applies to any adversary. It developed into a formal noun or name later, but the word itself still can be used to denote a general adversary. We all have our "satans" in one form or another.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 05:23:16 PM
Quote from: Traveler on January 26, 2012, 05:23:02 AM
I think this is a part of why debates with christians can be so frustrating, because christianity is a moving target.
That's a good point.
QuoteFar better, perhaps, to admit that all of us are walking our own paths. Some paths are closer to others, but a church that claims all its people are on the same exact path is probably deceiving themselves.
Yes. Or the congregation is spiritually dead. It seems to me everyone has to walk their own path.
It's like accepting Jesus as one's personal savior, what does that mean? Does that mean to accept the historical figure, or the idea of Christ. For instance, let's say I'm a theist and deny the real existence of Jesus Christ, but I believe in the symbol of Jesus Christ and follow the teachings laid out in the Gospels, have I accepted Jesus Christ or not?
Proving even further the perfection of your God and her plan?
I find it difficult to believe that Christians that haven't even read their own holy book profess undying belief in something so obviously flawed.
I am completely aware of people ignoring the things they don't like in lieu of the things they do... but doesn't that count as part of the whole point?
I.E. Perfection o_O
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 05:23:16 PM
It's like accepting Jesus as one's personal savior, what does that mean? Does that mean to accept the historical figure, or the idea of Christ. For instance, let's say I'm a theist and deny the real existence of Jesus Christ, but I believe in the symbol of Jesus Christ and follow the teachings laid out in the Gospels, have I accepted Jesus Christ or not?
I'll do you one better, I don't even know what it means to "accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior" in any meaningful practical way. Part of it is because I don't understand the logic behind it. Here's my problem:
Assuming the religion I was brought up in (Christianity) is true, then the following statements are presumably true, but make zero sense to me.
God created the Universe, and he is all knowing, and all powerful. Presumably, he also created the Rules, or at least knew about the Rules before he created the universe. The Rule we're interested in here is "No sinners can go to heaven." Most likely, this is god's rule since he makes the Rules.
Next, knowing that "No sinners can go to Heaven", god creates humans, and he creates them to not only be capable of sin, but he determines what is a sin, and he makes some of them (like drinking and having premarital sex) lots of fun. At this point, as I see it, the all knowing all powerful god has a couple of options.
1) He can allow sinners to go to heaven.
2) He can make people incapable of sin.
3) At the very least, he can make all sins unpleasant. Now, to me, most of the things I would call a sin like lying, stealing, et cetera) actually ARE unpleasant, but there are still all the ones about sex and keeping your body a temple and all of that.
He doesn't do any of that. He knows that all humans will be sinners, and he knows that no sinners go to heaven, so he has to allow some sort of a loophole. He decideds that people can sacrifice goats and lambs and stuff to pay for their sins. This is where the logic starts to get really shaky for me. How does killing a goat "pay for" your sins. Why would anything other than me have to (or be able to) pay for my sins? And what use does God have of dead goats? He's an incorporeal being - what is the body of a goat going to do for him?
Next, he decides that he's done with all of the dead goats, and the solution he comes up with is that he is going to send himself to earth to be sacrifiecd as the ultimate lamb to appease himself. What? Why did he create this ridiculous scenario in which he has to die to appease himself for our sins? Couldn't he just call himself appeased and call it a day?
And in the final twist in these prolonged and bizarre machinations, he decrees that you have to "accept Jesus as your Savior" in order for the whole twisted scenario to come full fruition, even knowing that vast numbers of people will never do so, and what does that even mean anyway? You just have to say "I accept Jesus as my Savior?' That's like saying there is a kind of "secret password" to get into Heaven.
I'm just saying, I'm neither all-powerful or all-knowing, (I would rank myself somewhere around middling-to-bright), but if you gave me a bottle of wine and a couple of hours to think about it, I could some up with a cleaner plan than that for just about any scenario.
Quote from: Ali on January 26, 2012, 06:12:45 PM
I'll do you one better, I don't even know what it means to "accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior" in any meaningful practical way. Part of it is because I don't understand the logic behind it. Here's my problem:
Assuming the religion I was brought up in (Christianity) is true, then the following statements are presumably true, but make zero sense to me.
God created the Universe, and he is all knowing, and all powerful. Presumably, he also created the Rules, or at least knew about the Rules before he created the universe. The Rule we're interested in here is "No sinners can go to heaven." Most likely, this is god's rule since he makes the Rules.
Just in this alone there is so much theology. To even think you were taught this is so sad. I would venture to say the people/person that taught you
"God made the rule that no sinners can go to heaven" is so twisted and lacking in any shape or form of Christianity...to say that, is an understatment.
The best and easiest way to say this is with the Light example someone (I can't remember who) posted.
QuoteI form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
`Isaiah 45:7
If we equate God to light (which the bible does do), to understand light, one must also, then, understand darkness for without either the other does not exist or is not understood. In God's presense, there is only light and darkness cannot exist in his presence. God is Holy and unholiness cannot exist, God is Justice and injustice cannot exist, God is Righteous and unrighteousness cannot exist, God is therefore sinless and sin cannot exist...all these things, by God's
nature and not of some random rule, can exist in his presence.
So God didn't arbitrarily say, "Sinners cannot be in heaven." because to be in heaven is to be in God's presence...its rather that it is impossible to posess these attributes in God's presence.
I hope this helps.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 06:39:20 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 26, 2012, 06:12:45 PM
I'll do you one better, I don't even know what it means to "accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior" in any meaningful practical way. Part of it is because I don't understand the logic behind it. Here's my problem:
Assuming the religion I was brought up in (Christianity) is true, then the following statements are presumably true, but make zero sense to me.
God created the Universe, and he is all knowing, and all powerful. Presumably, he also created the Rules, or at least knew about the Rules before he created the universe. The Rule we're interested in here is "No sinners can go to heaven." Most likely, this is god's rule since he makes the Rules.
Just in this alone there is so much theology. To even think you were taught this is so sad. I would venture to say the people/person that taught you "God made the rule that no sinners can go to heaven" is so twisted and lacking in any shape or form of Christianity...to say that, is an understatment.
The best and easiest way to say this is with the Light example someone (I can't remember who) posted.
QuoteI form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
`Isaiah 45:7
If we equate God to light (which the bible does do), to understand light, one must also, then, understand darkness for without either the other does not exist or is not understood. In God's presense, there is only light and darkness cannot exist in his presence. God is Holy and unholiness cannot exist, God is Justice and injustice cannot exist, God is Righteous and unrighteousness cannot exist, God is therefore sinless and sin cannot exist...all these things, by God's nature and not of some random rule, can exist in his presence.
So God didn't arbitrarily say, "Sinners cannot be in heaven." because to be in heaven is to be in God's presence...its rather that it is impossible to posess these attributes in God's presence.
I hope this helps.
Well, in fairness, I did say that either he made the rule or atleast he knew of the rule. I actually don't remember whether I was taught that he made the rule specifically, but being all powerful, I wouldn't know who else would be making the rules if not for god.
In other words, to your light example - I don't buy it. An all powerful god could say "I will allow sin in my presence. I will accept people as they are." Or he could say "As people pass into my presence, I will automatically strip them of their sin." (just as Jesus is supposed to do, except without all of the machinations. See how efficient I am? I 'm not even drinking wine or really mulling this over. I'm shooting from the hip here.)
Also, do you see why it's nearly impossible to debate Christianity with you, given the fact that you apparently think that any interpretation of the bible or the nature of god other than yours is incorrect? You would have to lay out, in specific detail, every single thing that you believe in regards to religion, in order for me to be able to debate it from your specific point of view.
Quote from: Ali on January 26, 2012, 06:48:50 PM
Well, in fairness, I did say that either he made the rule or atleast he knew of the rule. I actually don't remember whether I was taught that he made the rule specifically, but being all powerful, I wouldn't know who else would be making the rules if not for god.
Precisely my point. Assuming, with bias from *your (not simply disbelief) abhorrence to the misconception(s).
Quote from: AliIn other words, to your light example - I don't buy it. An all powerful god could say "I will allow sin in my presence. I will accept people as they are." Or he could say "As people pass into my presence, I will automatically strip them of their sin." (just as Jesus is supposed to do, except without all of the machinations. See how efficient I am? I 'm not even drinking wine or really mulling this over. I'm shooting from the hip here.)
Again a misunderstanding. I tried with the above "Light" example, but you seem to insist that "all powerful" means an ability to do that which is illogical. I suppose you may not understand the notion of God's nature. It's much like it is our nature to take in sustenence for life. To go against this, humanly, is to die. Logically one cannot go against this...unless you think anorexia is normal behavior and therefore healthy. Likewise, God simply IS light. Put anything next to a lit light bulb and it is lit up/ seen. God himself cannot escape what he is anymore than you or I can escape our need of sustenence for life.
Quote from: AliAlso, do you see why it's nearly impossible to debate Christianity with you, given the fact that you apparently think that any interpretation of the bible or the nature of god other than yours is incorrect? You would have to lay out, in specific detail, every single thing that you believe in regards to religion, in order for me to be able to debate it from your specific point of view.
Nearly impossible? Would you say it is more...or less...the same impossibility that all this (life, nature, the cosmos) came to be?
Ask and I'll relay my belief to you as best I can. You've not expressed the desire to discuss EVERYTHING I believe, but we do have specific instances here on this forum that you are able to see my stance.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 05:31:10 PM
There's no hate speech on my blog. You seem to think any dissenting view directed at atheism is an insult and hate speech, but you're the only one using foul language and hurling personal insults. I don't do that.
QuoteI hate atheism. I hate what it has done to our society, and I hate the ignorance it breeds. I want to do whatever I can to help the unfortunate victims of it. I believe the best way to do that is to spread the true Gospel Message of Jesus Christ.
Recognize this paragraph from anywhere?
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 26, 2012, 08:12:30 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 05:31:10 PM
There's no hate speech on my blog. You seem to think any dissenting view directed at atheism is an insult and hate speech, but you're the only one using foul language and hurling personal insults. I don't do that.
QuoteI hate atheism. I hate what it has done to our society, and I hate the ignorance it breeds. I want to do whatever I can to help the unfortunate victims of it. I believe the best way to do that is to spread the true Gospel Message of Jesus Christ.
Recognize this paragraph from anywhere?
Thank you G85.
Quote from: Ali on January 26, 2012, 06:12:45 PM
I'll do you one better, I don't even know what it means to "accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior" in any meaningful practical way. Part of it is because I don't understand the logic behind it. Here's my problem:
Assuming the religion I was brought up in (Christianity) is true, then the following statements are presumably true, but make zero sense to me.
God created the Universe, and he is all knowing, and all powerful. Presumably, he also created the Rules, or at least knew about the Rules before he created the universe. The Rule we're interested in here is "No sinners can go to heaven." Most likely, this is god's rule since he makes the Rules.
Next, knowing that "No sinners can go to Heaven", god creates humans, and he creates them to not only be capable of sin, but he determines what is a sin, and he makes some of them (like drinking and having premarital sex) lots of fun. At this point, as I see it, the all knowing all powerful god has a couple of options.
1) He can allow sinners to go to heaven.
2) He can make people incapable of sin.
3) At the very least, he can make all sins unpleasant. Now, to me, most of the things I would call a sin like lying, stealing, et cetera) actually ARE unpleasant, but there are still all the ones about sex and keeping your body a temple and all of that.
He doesn't do any of that. He knows that all humans will be sinners, and he knows that no sinners go to heaven, so he has to allow some sort of a loophole. He decideds that people can sacrifice goats and lambs and stuff to pay for their sins. This is where the logic starts to get really shaky for me. How does killing a goat "pay for" your sins. Why would anything other than me have to (or be able to) pay for my sins? And what use does God have of dead goats? He's an incorporeal being - what is the body of a goat going to do for him?
Next, he decides that he's done with all of the dead goats, and the solution he comes up with is that he is going to send himself to earth to be sacrifiecd as the ultimate lamb to appease himself. What? Why did he create this ridiculous scenario in which he has to die to appease himself for our sins? Couldn't he just call himself appeased and call it a day?
And in the final twist in these prolonged and bizarre machinations, he decrees that you have to "accept Jesus as your Savior" in order for the whole twisted scenario to come full fruition, even knowing that vast numbers of people will never do so, and what does that even mean anyway? You just have to say "I accept Jesus as my Savior?' That's like saying there is a kind of "secret password" to get into Heaven.
I'm just saying, I'm neither all-powerful or all-knowing, (I would rank myself somewhere around middling-to-bright), but if you gave me a bottle of wine and a couple of hours to think about it, I could some up with a cleaner plan than that for just about any scenario.
What can I say? Well put. I am fast coming to the notion that everyone must make their own religion and that God would accept nothing less. My greatest teacher is and will always be Jesus Christ as I find him in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and maybe even Thomas. So, I will always be a "Christian" by definition, but I think from this point forward, most Christians won't see me that way.
But bear in mind, it's one thing to throw out the bathwater; it's another thing to throw out the baby with it. If we abandon our belief in God because institutional religion is false, we may have missed the whole point of life's lesson.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 08:08:34 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 26, 2012, 06:48:50 PM
Well, in fairness, I did say that either he made the rule or atleast he knew of the rule. I actually don't remember whether I was taught that he made the rule specifically, but being all powerful, I wouldn't know who else would be making the rules if not for god.
Precisely my point. Assuming, with bias from *your (not simply disbelief) abhorrence to the misconception(s).
Quote from: AliIn other words, to your light example - I don't buy it. An all powerful god could say "I will allow sin in my presence. I will accept people as they are." Or he could say "As people pass into my presence, I will automatically strip them of their sin." (just as Jesus is supposed to do, except without all of the machinations. See how efficient I am? I 'm not even drinking wine or really mulling this over. I'm shooting from the hip here.)
Again a misunderstanding. I tried with the above "Light" example, but you seem to insist that "all powerful" means an ability to do that which is illogical. I suppose you may not understand the notion of God's nature. It's much like it is our nature to take in sustenence for life. To go against this, humanly, is to die. Logically one cannot go against this...unless you think anorexia is normal behavior and therefore healthy. Likewise, God simply IS light. Put anything next to a lit light bulb and it is lit up/ seen. God himself cannot escape what he is anymore than you or I can escape our need of sustenence for life.
Quote from: AliAlso, do you see why it's nearly impossible to debate Christianity with you, given the fact that you apparently think that any interpretation of the bible or the nature of god other than yours is incorrect? You would have to lay out, in specific detail, every single thing that you believe in regards to religion, in order for me to be able to debate it from your specific point of view.
Nearly impossible? Would you say it is more...or less...the same impossibility that all this (life, nature, the cosmos) came to be?
Ask and I'll relay my belief to you as best I can. You've not expressed the desire to discuss EVERYTHING I believe, but we do have specific instances here on this forum that you are able to see my stance.
My problem with the bolded above is that you seem to want god to follow some sort of logical physical rules (light cannot exist with dark or must exist with dark, or whatever analogy you're using. Unless you believe that god literally made of light waves, it's just an analogy, and I think you've said both.) The problem with that, is that's just your interpretation of what god must be like or do, and theists are happy enough to shrug off other physical rules that would constrain god as it suit them. I *do* think that an all-powerful being would be able to bend all sorts of physical rules. Could god defy gravity and fly? Sure, I like to think so. Could he mess with the 4th dimension and turn back time? Why not? Superman did it! Could god make a rock so large that even he can't pick it up? Not sure, but it would be certainly entertaining to watch him try. And who set up these logical rules if not for god? The whole light cannot exist for dark just sounds like an excuse to me. Because surely god actually can do whatever he wants, whether it makes sense to our feeble human minds or not, and whether it follows our weak analogies or not. And anyway, that still doesn't solve the question of "If god can choose to forgive us of our sins so that we can be in our presence, why doesn't he just go ahread and do it?" What was the whole Jesus farce about? People always say that Jesus had to pay the ultimate penalty for our sins, but what they seem to lose track of is that if he was god, he was paying it to himself. And being all knowing, god must have known that was the way it was going to go down before he even created anything, but that's the best he could come up with?
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 26, 2012, 08:12:30 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 05:31:10 PM
There's no hate speech on my blog. You seem to think any dissenting view directed at atheism is an insult and hate speech, but you're the only one using foul language and hurling personal insults. I don't do that.
QuoteI hate atheism. I hate what it has done to our society, and I hate the ignorance it breeds. I want to do whatever I can to help the unfortunate victims of it. I believe the best way to do that is to spread the true Gospel Message of Jesus Christ.
Recognize this paragraph from anywhere?
Well, yes, I hate atheism, but I don't hate atheists as people. Maybe I should change that on my blog, because though I've said this about 10,000 times in the atheist forums, atheists it seems will see whatever they believe.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 08:32:38 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 26, 2012, 08:12:30 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 05:31:10 PM
There's no hate speech on my blog. You seem to think any dissenting view directed at atheism is an insult and hate speech, but you're the only one using foul language and hurling personal insults. I don't do that.
QuoteI hate atheism. I hate what it has done to our society, and I hate the ignorance it breeds. I want to do whatever I can to help the unfortunate victims of it. I believe the best way to do that is to spread the true Gospel Message of Jesus Christ.
Recognize this paragraph from anywhere?
Well, yes, I hate atheism, but I don't hate atheists as people. Maybe I should change that on my blog, because though I've said this about 10,000 times in the atheist forums, atheists it seems will see whatever they believe.
As if you don't?
Seems to me that you do have a problem with atheists as people. You focus a lot of negativity towards atheists (not just atheism) in your blogs.
"The Ingratitude of Atheists."
"Atheists Must Make Bad Parents" - that's a particular favorite of mine
"Do You Trust Atheists?"
"Atheists Have No Life"
and so on.
Hey, I don't blame you. I think it's human to associate behaviors with people. When I say "I hate lying" I wouldn't deny that this basically means "I hate liars." I just think you should come clean to yourself that you hate atheists, not just atheism. Or at least, that's the way you portray yourself.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 08:32:38 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 26, 2012, 08:12:30 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 05:31:10 PM
There's no hate speech on my blog. You seem to think any dissenting view directed at atheism is an insult and hate speech, but you're the only one using foul language and hurling personal insults. I don't do that.
QuoteI hate atheism. I hate what it has done to our society, and I hate the ignorance it breeds. I want to do whatever I can to help the unfortunate victims of it. I believe the best way to do that is to spread the true Gospel Message of Jesus Christ.
Recognize this paragraph from anywhere?
Well, yes, I hate atheism, but I don't hate atheists as people. Maybe I should change that on my blog, because though I've said this about 10,000 times in the atheist forums, atheists it seems will see whatever they believe.
No. Atheist believe in facts. Most make a decision after looking at evidence.
Quote from: Ali on January 26, 2012, 08:39:41 PM
Seems to me that you do have a problem with atheists as people. You focus a lot of negativity towards atheists (not just atheism) in your blogs.
"The Ingratitude of Atheists."
"Atheists Must Make Bad Parents" - that's a particular favorite of mine
"Do You Trust Atheists?"
"Atheists Have No Life"
and so on.
Hey, I don't blame you. I think it's human to associate behaviors with people. When I say "I hate lying" I wouldn't deny that this basically means "I hate liars." I just think you should come clean to yourself that you hate atheists, not just atheism. Or at least, that's the way you portray yourself.
Well, you have a point there. I have changed the profile message on my blog, and I invite whoever is interested to check it out and comment.
But the truth is, I don't really hate atheists as people. I mean, I don't hate you. I don't even feel negatively toward you. To me, if I hated atheists as people, I'd want to destroy them as people, and the best way for me to do that is to simply ignore them, or even better support their rejection of Christ so they will surely go to hell. But I think that would kind of make me a Satanist and not a Christian.
When I write posts directed at "atheists" it's not at any person in particular, but rather at a group behavior. But I can see how that might be considered hate. But you have to understand who you're talking to: I'm used to physically fighting my friends at least twice a week. And to be quite honest, I have little respect for someone who won't fight. However, I realize most people think you only fight people you hate. But with me, it's more like I fight the people I respect.
To me, love is an action not a feeling. I work with some ridiculous people who like to go in the internet and look at dogs that are up for adoption at the local humane society. They won't adopt one, they just like to go "ooh and awww." They say they love animals. I disagree.
And to me, hate is an action, not a feeling. If I hated atheists, I wouldn't try to show them the way out of atheism. I can be pissed off at atheists as people, but that doesn't mean I hate them. If I came in here and said, "God loves you anyway, and hey! who knows? maybe there's a place in heaven for atheists, too! :-* :'( :)
Now, that would be hate.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 26, 2012, 08:40:20 PM
No. Atheist believe in facts. Most make a decision after looking at evidence.
Oh, bullshit.
Quote from: Ali on January 26, 2012, 08:30:44 PM
My problem with the bolded above is that you seem to want god to follow some sort of logical physical rules (light cannot exist with dark or must exist with dark, or whatever analogy you're using. Unless you believe that god literally made of light waves, it's just an analogy, and I think you've said both.)
Christ is quoted as saying, "I am the light of the world...", God did appear as a flaming bush, a light of sorts. God's presence is manifested many times as a bright light. I wouldn't say God is a light literally, but rather whatever he IS manifests itself as light. In that sense God is light.
Quote from: AliThe problem with that, is that's just your interpretation of what god must be like or do, and theists are happy enough to shrug off other physical rules that would constrain god as it suit them. I *do* think that an all-powerful being would be able to bend all sorts of physical rules. Could god defy gravity and fly? Sure, I like to think so. Could he mess with the 4th dimension and turn back time? Why not? Superman did it! Could god make a rock so large that even he can't pick it up? Not sure, but it would be certainly entertaining to watch him try. And who set up these logical rules if not for god?
Why is it so difficult to accept that the insistance that
an all powerful god should be able to create a rock so heavy he can not pick it up is rediculous...silly? The bible never claims God is omnipotent (I believe the translation comes from the word Shaddai?, meaning Almighty) In fact the bible is full of things God cannot do. Lie. Sin. He cannot even go against his own Justice.
Is it possible to lay aside this silly notion of "if god is omnipotent, then..." thus he is not omnipotent. We agree. God is not omnipotent in that sense, but rather he is able to accomplish his will.
Quote from: AliThe whole light cannot exist for dark just sounds like an excuse to me. Because surely god actually can do whatever he wants, whether it makes sense to our feeble human minds or not, and whether it follows our weak analogies or not.
This is funny to me. *You can sit in judgment of whether there is a God (the Christian God) using your own mind and its knowledge or inferred knowledge, but light vs dark is just an excuse? Am I not speaking with a person, one that believes what you can see and/or know scientifically? Does light CREATE darkness or is darkness a result of what light IS or an interaction between light and an object(s)?
Quote from: AliAnd anyway, that still doesn't solve the question of "If god can choose to forgive us of our sins so that we can be in our presence, why doesn't he just go ahread and do it?" What was the whole Jesus farce about? People always say that Jesus had to pay the ultimate penalty for our sins, but what they seem to lose track of is that if he was god, he was paying it to himself. And being all knowing, god must have known that was the way it was going to go down before he even created anything, but that's the best he could come up with?
Again, I thought I had explained a bit to you. God cannot just flippantly "excuse" or "choose" to forgive sin, much like in our society we do not just flippantly excuse and forgive a murderer of their actions. He/she is forgiven and returned to their free status if they serve their time/consequences. Sometimes death is the consequence. There's no coming back from that. Forgiveness always comes after consequences. Death is a consequence of life, yet we don't find Atheism protesting procreation, do we? The consequence of living outside of God's ability to sustain life is death. It's not much more difficult than that.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 09:02:16 PM
If I came in here and said, "God loves you anyway, and hey! who knows? maybe there's a place in heaven for atheists, too! :-* :'( :)
Now, that would be hate.
In my opinion, love means accepting someone or something for whom they are. Supporting them, not necessarily trying to change them. Of course it is a bit different with children whom need a parent's guidance, eventually a loving parent needs to let go of the child and support it in making its own decisions.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 09:06:04 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 26, 2012, 08:40:20 PM
No. Atheist believe in facts. Most make a decision after looking at evidence.
Oh, bullshit.
How is that bullshit? Elaborate please.
Atheists do believe in facts. I for one could be swayed any day with evidence. You have none. You have assertions and story books. And yet you are surprised and angry that we don't believe you. Do you realise how insane that is?
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 09:06:04 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 26, 2012, 08:40:20 PM
No. Atheist believe in facts. Most make a decision after looking at evidence.
Oh, bullshit.
And the question is..."What is Egor full of?"
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 09:06:04 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 26, 2012, 08:40:20 PM
No. Atheist believe in facts. Most make a decision after looking at evidence.
Oh, bullshit.
Excuse me? When something unexplainable happens, an atheist won't just blame a deity.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 26, 2012, 09:21:27 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 09:06:04 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 26, 2012, 08:40:20 PM
No. Atheist believe in facts. Most make a decision after looking at evidence.
Oh, bullshit.
Excuse me? When something unexplainable happens, an atheist won't just blame a deity.
Or run to a church to pray. >__>
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 26, 2012, 09:25:52 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 26, 2012, 09:21:27 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 09:06:04 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 26, 2012, 08:40:20 PM
No. Atheist believe in facts. Most make a decision after looking at evidence.
Oh, bullshit.
Excuse me? When something unexplainable happens, an atheist won't just blame a deity.
Or run to a church to pray. >__>
Hmmm, for some reason I'm reminded of the scene in the Simpsons movie where the Dome is just over the town, and the people in the church run into the bar and the people in the bar run into the church.... :P
Besides, I get a headache trying to figure out which "god" I'm supposed to blame for which weird thing that I can't immediately explain. Much easier just to find out what really happened in most cases... :-\
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 09:16:39 PM
In my opinion, love means accepting someone or something for whom they are. Supporting them, not necessarily trying to change them. Of course it is a bit different with children whom need a parent's guidance, eventually a loving parent needs to let go of the child and support it in making its own decisions.
You're contradicting yourself. Besides, that's not what love means. Love is an action taken for the true benefit of another. That's it.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 09:40:35 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 09:16:39 PM
In my opinion, love means accepting someone or something for whom they are. Supporting them, not necessarily trying to change them. Of course it is a bit different with children whom need a parent's guidance, eventually a loving parent needs to let go of the child and support it in making its own decisions.
You're contradicting yourself. Besides, that's not what love means. Love is an action taken for the true benefit of another. That's it.
Not in my opinion. In my opinion love is respecting and supporting, its not about you its about them, its not about what you want, it is about what they want, its not about what you think is the correct path, it is about what they think is the correct path.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 09:40:35 PMYou're contradicting yourself. Besides, that's not what love means. Love is an action taken for the true benefit of another. That's it.
Wrong again as usual.
Love is a deep, emotional and personal bond between people. Hell, charitable volunteerism is people taking action to benefit others and they're not doing it out of love, they do it out of comapssion and a desire to lend aid to those in need.
Do you ever get tired of being wrong ???
Never mind. Done debating for today.
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 09:44:03 PM
Not in my opinion. In my opinion love is respecting and supporting, its not about you its about them, its not about what you want, it is about what they want, its not about what you think is the correct path, it is about what they think is the correct path.
So let'em burn, you say.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 10:27:23 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 09:44:03 PM
Not in my opinion. In my opinion love is respecting and supporting, its not about you its about them, its not about what you want, it is about what they want, its not about what you think is the correct path, it is about what they think is the correct path.
So let'em burn, you say.
We make our own choices in life, we ought to be respected for the choices we make, unless of course we are harming others.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 26, 2012, 10:11:35 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 09:40:35 PMYou're contradicting yourself. Besides, that's not what love means. Love is an action taken for the true benefit of another. That's it.
Wrong again as usual.
Love is a deep, emotional and personal bond between people. Hell, charitable volunteerism is people taking action to benefit others and they're not doing it out of love, they do it out of comapssion and a desire to lend aid to those in need.
Do you ever get tired of being wrong ???
So when the feelings go there's goes love. "Sorry, dear. I know I said I'd love you in sickness and in health, but you're sick and this other bit at the pub is making me randy, so...I don't love you anymore. I now love her. For now."
That's atheism! Hedonism + Reproduction as Purpose = Love as a feeling.
Quote from: Ali on January 26, 2012, 10:19:25 PM
What it basically comes down to for me is that it appears that people who believe in god want to give him both human and non-human traits.
Funny you should say that since the bible claims God came in the form of a human and remains in that form forever and that God, the father part, remains spirit...or whatever he/she is made of. We, the people don't "want" to give him both, it's expressed as such. But I think you understand that, but disagree.
Quote from: AliExample of human traits: God needs a sacrifice in order to forgive people their sins. Really? What is an incorporeal being going to do with a sacrifice? That's something that a human that deals in this world would want/need. But then when it suits them, he also does not have to behave like a physical being. He can make things appear from nothing. He, himself, needs to origin. And so on. God is magic, but only when it suits. Other times, he is achingly human.
God doesn't NEED a sacrifice. The consequence of darkness/sin is death. It just IS God's nature and that, apparently, cannot be helped. Instead, God had the OT people sacrifice animals to teach them what sin costs. It costs life. Once the NT part of history, or fictional history, came and Christ, God in flesh, came, HE laid his own innocent-to-sin-life as payment for our sin. God dying was the cost. In order to be God, Righteous, and Just, there was only one LEGAL manner in which to reconcile a lost sinner from the sin problem.Now you might argue God didn't die...but that is a whole other deep theological discussion, I don't think you want to get into.
Quote from: AliThe light analogy is weak because light behaves as it does for physical reasons. It is part of the physical world. Unless you believe that god is literally made up of light waves, there is no reason that god has to behave in the same way as light. That's why the "science" of it doesn't follow. Something is either of the physical world or it is not, and if it is not, I'm not convinced that it is bound to physical laws.
Well, who has seen God in his natural form and lived to say? Moses saw God's back and could apparently barely survive that...according to the fiction.
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 10:31:25 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 26, 2012, 10:11:35 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 09:40:35 PMYou're contradicting yourself. Besides, that's not what love means. Love is an action taken for the true benefit of another. That's it.
Wrong again as usual.
Love is a deep, emotional and personal bond between people. Hell, charitable volunteerism is people taking action to benefit others and they're not doing it out of love, they do it out of comapssion and a desire to lend aid to those in need.
Do you ever get tired of being wrong ???
So when the feelings go there's goes love. "Sorry, dear. I know I said I'd love you in sickness and in health, but you're sick and this other bit at the pub is making me randy, so...I don't love you anymore. I now love her. For now."
That's atheism! Hedonism + Reproduction as Purpose = Love as a feeling.
He swings and misses...again!
The above caricature that you offer as an example of the atheist capacity for love isn't just insulting, it's yet another head shakingly pathetic example as to just how clueless you are of not only atheists but of people in general. Atheists are just people who don't believe what you believe and that makes you mad. In order to cope with your anger you channel it into ignorance and hate which then comes out in the form of stunningly stupid posts such as the one above.
See what you've done? Now Tank's probably gonna scold me again and it's totally your fault. ::)
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 08:32:38 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 26, 2012, 08:12:30 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 05:31:10 PM
There's no hate speech on my blog. You seem to think any dissenting view directed at atheism is an insult and hate speech, but you're the only one using foul language and hurling personal insults. I don't do that.
QuoteI hate atheism. I hate what it has done to our society, and I hate the ignorance it breeds. I want to do whatever I can to help the unfortunate victims of it. I believe the best way to do that is to spread the true Gospel Message of Jesus Christ.
Recognize this paragraph from anywhere?
Well, yes, I hate atheism, but I don't hate atheists as people. Maybe I should change that on my blog, because though I've said this about 10,000 times in the atheist forums, atheists it seems will see whatever they believe.
That's just the hate the sin not the sinner nonsense. If you honestly believe that atheists existing is harming society then you hate atheists as people.
I was trying to come up with an example of a quality of a person that I absolutely hate but can still be okay with the person themselves but couldn't think of one. I almost started to use Christians as an example but I don't feel hate towards someone just for being a Christian (not my favorite character trait but can be overlooked ;) ) and those that I do hate fully deserve it (such as that westboro baptist group). I don't think it's possible to truly hate an aspect of a person yet not hate that person in some way.
Hate is a very strong emotion....frankly I'm surprised so many who claim to know god are so willing to throw the word around so freely; shouldn't you all be setting a higher example for us heathens?
as a reminder for Egor:
1 Corinthians 13:4-8
New International Version (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 26, 2012, 10:58:42 PM
He swings and misses...again!
The above caricature that you offer as an example of the atheist capacity for love isn't just insulting,
Whatever. I got it from you.
Quote from: Whitney on January 26, 2012, 11:33:55 PM
That's just the hate the sin not the sinner nonsense. If you honestly believe that atheists existing is harming society then you hate atheists as people.
That's a non-sequitur. It also happens to be untrue. And I should know, given that I'm the one who would have to do the hating.
QuoteI was trying to come up with an example of a quality of a person that I absolutely hate but can still be okay with the person themselves but couldn't think of one.
Well then I guess you don't have the mental discipline of a true Christian.
QuoteI almost started to use Christians as an example but I don't feel hate towards someone just for being a Christian (not my favorite character trait but can be overlooked ;) ) and those that I do hate fully deserve it (such as that westboro baptist group). I don't think it's possible to truly hate an aspect of a person yet not hate that person in some way.
Do you personally know anyone from the Westboro Baptist Church? How can you hate someone you don't even know? Over words? Seriously? And that makes you better than the very worst possible religious hate-filled nut how? You even claim your hatred is deserved by these people who don't know you and you don't know them. That's not rational.
Hate...a real person...over this shit. You really need some perspective.
I hate atheism. I don't hate atheists. I feel sorry for atheists, because I see them as victims of atheism. I hate atheism because if I could destroy it, by any means necessary, I'd do it and sleep like a baby. But I could never in a million years hate a person—a creation of my Father's, who created them as a unique being in this universe because He thought it was good to do so—simply because they have fallen prey to Satan's lie.
If God has seen fit to give you time to change, I am not going to spend that time hating you. I'm going to spend it trying to convert you.
QuoteHate is a very strong emotion....frankly I'm surprised so many who claim to know god are so willing to throw the word around so freely; shouldn't you all be setting a higher example for us heathens?
Indeed.
Quote from: Whitney on January 26, 2012, 11:41:39 PM
1 Corinthians 13:4-8
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Wow—throwing Bible verses at me. Out of curiosity, you're not actually a member of the Westboro Baptist Church are you?
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 05:51:07 AM
Out of curiosity, you're not actually a member of the Westboro Baptist Church are you?
wtf?
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 05:51:07 AM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 26, 2012, 10:58:42 PM
He swings and misses...again!
The above caricature that you offer as an example of the atheist capacity for love isn't just insulting,
Whatever. I got it from you.
Really? Show me where. Post the quote.
I mean I learned it from you. You said love is a feeling and then crticized compassionate volunteers. Well, if love is a feeling then it comes and goes with the wind doesn't it.
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 06:15:54 AM
I mean I learned it from you. You said love is a feeling and then crticized compassionate volunteers. Well, if love is a feeling then it comes and goes with the wind doesn't it.
Wow... cynical, much?
I don't know if you are married or not, but are you really saying that if you didn't have god watching you, your feelings for a wife or girlfriend would be worth less? If that is the case I just lost my last shred of respect for you.
Wow....simply...wow.
*Musing...*
I hate the concept of 'lack of belief in Gods' and if I could "stamp" it out...(even the terminology startles me).
I don't hate Stalin as a person. I hate the concept or ideology he stood for and if I could stamp it out...
If I hate the concepts or ideologies that people believe in or hold to, the only way to stamp it out is to stamp out those that believe and/or propagate those concepts and ideologies....
...even though I do not hate the person.
Ummmm....therefore, anyone who doesn't hold to my beliefs and/or, because those beliefs and/or concepts that are not mine I hate by proxy and logic. They are wrong and my belief is the only correct belief and if I could, I must stamp out those people to stop the propagation of those awful and incorrect concepts.
Only then when all the incorrect beliefs are stamped out along with those that hold and/or propagate those beliefs and/or concepts that I hate and everyone thinks the same way I do, can I be no longer hate filled...because God loves me.
*musing over*
wow....simply...wow
Everything that is identified as "sin" in the Bible is so wrapped up with human nature that it's impossible to hate those acts without hating the person, as well. Think of a factory that produces a product - if you hate the product, it makes no sense to say that you do not hate the factory that produces it. Instead of getting caught up in this "hate" distinction, it seems more productive to simply realize that some behaviors are destructive (or which prevent us from reaching our potential), and them work in some way to assist people to overcome those behaviors. That would be an act of love. If a particular behavior is not destructive, then there is no reason to be concerned about it. Some acts that would have been destructive in another time or culture may not be so today. For me, the focus in Christianity is off of sin and more on grace and love. Focusing on sin is a more OT concept and is the hallmark of legalism and judgmentalism. According to the gospel of John, Jesus came to take away the sin of the world. "Sin" as a concept should be becoming less the focus, and acting with love (which "keeps no account of wrongs" - Whitney's verse from I Cor.) more the focus.
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 06:15:54 AM
I mean I learned it from you. You said love is a feeling and then crticized compassionate volunteers. Well, if love is a feeling then it comes and goes with the wind doesn't it.
Do you just walk around all day making it a point to be intentionally thick? No, what I really think you do is feed on contention and anger. You're like a parasite of negativity. You need help. Get some fucking therapy you douchebag. Even Jesus can't stand you.
I know, Tank! I know! But this guy is seriously messed up. He's a trainwreck.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 27, 2012, 06:34:18 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 06:15:54 AM
I mean I learned it from you. You said love is a feeling and then crticized compassionate volunteers. Well, if love is a feeling then it comes and goes with the wind doesn't it.
Do you just walk around all day making it a point to be intentionally thick? No, what I really think you do is feed on contention and anger. You're like a parasite of negativity. You need help. Get some fucking therapy you douchebag. Even Jesus can't stand you.
I know, Tank! I know! But this guy is seriously messed up. He's a trainwreck.
You knew it was coming. First warning for a personal attack. Please refrain from such behaviour in the future.
Quote from: Tank on January 27, 2012, 06:54:16 PMYou knew it was coming. First warning for a personal attack. Please refrain from such behaviour in the future.
Yeah I knew but it was worth it. ;D
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 27, 2012, 08:11:18 AM
Wow... cynical, much?
I don't know if you are married or not, but are you really saying that if you didn't have god watching you, your feelings for a wife or girlfriend would be worth less? If that is the case I just lost my last shred of respect for you.
If there were no God, my feelings would be an illusion along with my consciousness. My feelings would simply be what complex matter does for ultimately chaotic reasons. Isn't that right?
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 07:40:33 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 27, 2012, 08:11:18 AM
Wow... cynical, much?
I don't know if you are married or not, but are you really saying that if you didn't have god watching you, your feelings for a wife or girlfriend would be worth less? If that is the case I just lost my last shred of respect for you.
If there were no God, my feelings would be an illusion along with my consciousness. My feelings would simply be what complex matter does for ultimately chaotic reasons. Isn't that right?
No, that is not right.
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 07:40:33 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 27, 2012, 08:11:18 AM
Wow... cynical, much?
I don't know if you are married or not, but are you really saying that if you didn't have god watching you, your feelings for a wife or girlfriend would be worth less? If that is the case I just lost my last shred of respect for you.
If there were no God, my feelings would be an illusion along with my consciousness. My feelings would simply be what complex matter does for ultimately chaotic reasons. Isn't that right?
Love is chaotic. That doesn't mean that the mechanics of your brain that make you feel love are chaotic or random. Love as we know it is a evolved evolutionary trait. It evolved as a mechanism for keeping family groups together for support or protection. That said:
Your feelings are the principal expression of your concious mind. Without them you would be a drone. I am sorry you have been so deluded by christianity that you don't even credit yourself with your own feelings for your family.
Quote from: Ali on January 26, 2012, 10:19:25 PM
Never mind. Done debating for today.
Perhaps the definition of love is also a moving target?
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 07:40:33 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 27, 2012, 08:11:18 AM
Wow... cynical, much?
I don't know if you are married or not, but are you really saying that if you didn't have god watching you, your feelings for a wife or girlfriend would be worth less? If that is the case I just lost my last shred of respect for you.
If there were no God, my feelings would be an illusion along with my consciousness. My feelings would simply be what complex matter does for ultimately chaotic reasons. Isn't that right?
No it isn't right. You are equating your feelings and consciousness with the existence of the Jabberwocky. And there is no evidence that the Jabberwocky exists. Your feelings and consciousness
are the result of the extremely complex chemical operation of your brain that has been evolving for the last 600 to 700 million years. How can we see this? Your feelings and consciousness can be altered by chemical medication effecting your brain. Simple.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 27, 2012, 08:01:54 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 26, 2012, 10:19:25 PM
Never mind. Done debating for today.
Perhaps the definition of love is also a moving target?
Ain't that the truth? ;)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 27, 2012, 05:41:55 PM
Everything that is identified as "sin" in the Bible is so wrapped up with human nature that it's impossible to hate those acts without hating the person, as well.
Then the profession of psychicatric nursing should be impossible. Right?
QuoteThink of a factory that produces a product - if you hate the product, it makes no sense to say that you do not hate the factory that produces it.
Sure it does. If you stop the inhumane factory farming of turkeys and chickens, and industry I hate, I have nothing against the buildings, the grounds, and the grain storage bins of the previously, badly run factory farm. In fact, you can use that same factory to humanely raise chickens and turkeys.
You all want me to be wrong on this, because you desperately need me to be a hater, but I'm not, and you can't deal with that. I recently wrote an entire article on the Westboro Baptist Church. I'm not even sure they are "haters" they way you might think they are. I realize you need your straw men, but you're not going to get one out of me by saying I hate you.
QuoteInstead of getting caught up in this "hate" distinction, it seems more productive to simply realize that some behaviors are destructive (or which prevent us from reaching our potential), and them work in some way to assist people to overcome those behaviors. That would be an act of love.
I agree. But I do hate atheism. Apparently I do, becaue I am working for its destruction. That's an act that meets my definition of hate. But atheism is an ideology not a person. It would be like saying Jesus hates hypocrisy. Same, same.
QuoteIf a particular behavior is not destructive, then there is no reason to be concerned about it. Some acts that would have been destructive in another time or culture may not be so today.
Hmmm. Now there's a dangerous statement.
QuoteFor me, the focus in Christianity is off of sin and more on grace and love. Focusing on sin is a more OT concept and is the hallmark of legalism and judgmentalism. According to the gospel of John, Jesus came to take away the sin of the world. "Sin" as a concept should be becoming less the focus, and acting with love (which "keeps no account of wrongs" - Whitney's verse from I Cor.) more the focus.
I agree with that. I think people tend to get more concerned about sin than God is. However, when it comes to atheism, we must do all we can because that is a sin that necessarily separates one from God for all eternity.
Now look, I don't know who the real atheists are in here. I don't. Because I know that many may only be playing the Devil's advocate and are really what we would call "seekers." So I can't say in here who's going to hell and who isn't. But I do know that if one rejects God and Christ, then when they die, they won't just die as the vast majority of people will (and I'll write about the dynamics of hell later) They will be tormented forever apparently for the pleasure of God. Could they ultimately be saved from hell? I don't know. Jesus doesn't rule that out in the Gospels, but he doesn't mention it either.
What I hate is that here are these thinkers of things spiritual, and they are. Atheist groups like this are more intellectually active than any Christian group I've ever been in. But here they are, and they won't be in the Kingdom when this relatively short time for all of us is over. Wouldn't it be great if instead of throwing out God and Christ we transformed the church, stole Christianity from the hypocrites and idiots, and turned it into an unstoppable religious and political force in this time--our time?
ehh...pipe dreams I suppose.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 26, 2012, 10:58:42 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 26, 2012, 10:31:25 PM
So when the feelings go there's goes love. "Sorry, dear. I know I said I'd love you in sickness and in health, but you're sick and this other bit at the pub is making me randy, so...I don't love you anymore. I now love her. For now."
He swings and misses...again!
The above caricature that you offer as an example of the atheist capacity for love isn't just insulting, it's yet another head shakingly pathetic example as to just how clueless you are of not only atheists but of people in general.
It is, however, a rather close description of my devout Xtian sister-in-law's decision to divorce my brother.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 27, 2012, 06:34:18 PM
Do you just walk around all day making it a point to be intentionally thick? No, what I really think you do is feed on contention and anger. You're like a parasite of negativity. You need help. Get some fucking therapy you douchebag. Even Jesus can't stand you.
I know, Tank! I know! But this guy is seriously messed up. He's a trainwreck.
I don't get the feeling your Raving Atheist stuff is going to go over well in here. You know, you can identify a person by how they write. That's why I don't bother hiding my identity. Every group I go in knows who I am from five years ago, it seems.
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 27, 2012, 07:57:00 PM
Love is chaotic. That doesn't mean that the mechanics of your brain that make you feel love are chaotic or random. Love as we know it is a evolved evolutionary trait.
Like passing gas. Yes?
QuoteIt evolved as a mechanism for keeping family groups together for support or protection.
Just like poverty.
QuoteThat said:
Your feelings are the principal expression of your concious mind. Without them you would be a drone. I am sorry you have been so deluded by christianity that you don't even credit yourself with your own feelings for your family.
It's not about my feelings for my family. It's about what I consider love to be. I see it as one of the eternal attributes of God in me in part. And when I no longer am a prisoner to this body, I will manifest that attribute much more clearly than I am capable of doing now.
You see love as an evolutionary survival instinct. And I think you do it an injustice.
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 27, 2012, 07:57:00 PM
Love is chaotic. That doesn't mean that the mechanics of your brain that make you feel love are chaotic or random. Love as we know it is a evolved evolutionary trait.
Like passing gas. Yes?
QuoteIt evolved as a mechanism for keeping family groups together for support or protection.
Just like poverty.
QuoteThat said:
Your feelings are the principal expression of your concious mind. Without them you would be a drone. I am sorry you have been so deluded by christianity that you don't even credit yourself with your own feelings for your family.
It's not about my feelings for my family. It's about what I consider love to be. I see it as one of the eternal attributes of God in me in part. And when I no longer am a prisoner to this body, I will manifest that attribute much more clearly than I am capable of doing now.
You see love as an evolutionary survival instinct. And I think you do it an injustice.
Well your feelings don't matter do they. It's what you can show evidence for that matters. Behaviours are evolved, love is an evolved behaviour. It's there because it works in ensuring the survival of offspring until sexual maturity. It's cold, it's harsh but it's still reality.
Quote from: Tank on January 27, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
No it isn't right. You are equating your feelings and consciousness with the existence of the Jabberwocky. And there is no evidence that the Jabberwocky exists. Your feelings and consciousness are the result of the extremely complex chemical operation of your brain that has been evolving for the last 600 to 700 million years. How can we see this? Your feelings and consciousness can be altered by chemical medication effecting your brain. Simple.
Fine, but in the context of our discussion that doesn't say a lot for love. The commercials used to say, "A diamond is forever." But we know that's not true, because eventually your bride will become a rotting corpse and the ring will just fall off--I mean eventually. What is eternal is the love we give to one another. The fidelity in a marriage, the respect, the loyalty, the confederacy--in sickness and in health, in good times and in bad. It's the greatest gift we can give, because it's the one eternal thing God has given us that we can give away.
If it's just a biological function evolved over the years, like the feeling of needing to urinate, I think I'd rather have the diamond.
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:05:36 PM
What I hate is that here are these thinkers of things spiritual, and they are. Atheist groups like this are more intellectually active than any Christian group I've ever been in. But here they are, and they won't be in the Kingdom when this relatively short time for all of us is over. Wouldn't it be great if instead of throwing out God and Christ we transformed the church, stole Christianity from the hypocrites and idiots, and turned it into an unstoppable religious and political force in this time--our time?
ehh...pipe dreams I suppose.
Don't you worry your little head about us, Egor. One of my dear friend is a minister (UU) with a Masters in Divinity. She informs me that atheists are "God's thinking children" and are as beloved to god as any other. According to her if there's a heaven, you'll see us there. ;) See, now you can spend your life focused on something more productive.
Quote from: Tank on January 27, 2012, 08:20:08 PM
Well your feelings don't matter do they. It's what you can show evidence for that matters. Behaviours are evolved, love is an evolved behaviour. It's there because it works in ensuring the survival of offspring until sexual maturity. It's cold, it's harsh but it's still reality.
Yes, from an atheist point of view, that is exactly it. If atheism is true, that is what love is. You and I are in complete agreement on that.
Quote from: Ali on January 27, 2012, 08:22:22 PM
Don't you worry your little head about us, Egor. One of my dear friend is a minister (UU) with a Masters in Divinity. She informs me that atheists are "God's thinking children" and are as beloved to god as any other. According to her if there's a heaven, you'll see us there. ;) See, now you can spend your life focused on something more productive.
Unfortunately, your sister is wrong on that one. I mean think about it, if even the people who consciously reject God and Christ go to heaven, then what is hell for? And if you say hell simply doesn't exist, then Jesus was completely wrong about a large portion of his ministry, and in fact his life was meaningless since he came to save us from hell.
If there is no hell, there's no need for a Kingdom either. There's also no ultimate justice in the universe. So, the only way your sister can be right is if atheism is true. And if atheism is true, we're all just tapping at our keyboards because we are stimulated to do so.
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:26:39 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 27, 2012, 08:22:22 PM
Don't you worry your little head about us, Egor. One of my dear friend is a minister (UU) with a Masters in Divinity. She informs me that atheists are "God's thinking children" and are as beloved to god as any other. According to her if there's a heaven, you'll see us there. ;) See, now you can spend your life focused on something more productive.
Unfortunately, your sister is wrong on that one.
I dunno.....she's pretty smart..... :P :P :P
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 27, 2012, 07:57:00 PM
Love is chaotic. That doesn't mean that the mechanics of your brain that make you feel love are chaotic or random. Love as we know it is a evolved evolutionary trait.
Like passing gas. Yes?
No. There are differences between physiological traits and evolved instincts. The fact that you try to demean my understanding of love by equating it to the bodies simplest (and to some) disgusting functions is not a victory for you. Rather it is a symptom of the fact that you do not have a valid argument to counter it without referring to the supernatural.
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:15:36 PM
QuoteIt evolved as a mechanism for keeping family groups together for support or protection.
Just like poverty.
That one flew by a little fast. How is poverty an evolved trait?
I figure that if god is real then life is a test that you pass by not buying into hateful religions and beliefs and generally being a good person.
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:21:16 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 27, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
No it isn't right. You are equating your feelings and consciousness with the existence of the Jabberwocky. And there is no evidence that the Jabberwocky exists. Your feelings and consciousness are the result of the extremely complex chemical operation of your brain that has been evolving for the last 600 to 700 million years. How can we see this? Your feelings and consciousness can be altered by chemical medication effecting your brain. Simple.
Fine, but in the context of our discussion that doesn't say a lot for love. The commercials used to say, "A diamond is forever." But we know that's not true, because eventually your bride will become a rotting corpse and the ring will just fall off--I mean eventually. What is eternal is the love we give to one another. The fidelity in a marriage, the respect, the loyalty, the confederacy--in sickness and in health, in good times and in bad. It's the greatest gift we can give, because it's the one eternal thing God has given us that we can give away.
If it's just a biological function evolved over the years, like the feeling of needing to urinate, I think I'd rather have the diamond.
But you're creating a very nice and personally desirable fantasy to live in. The picture you paint is better than reality, a lot better. But that doesn't make it real. I'd have the diamond each and every time and that's what people always want; the diamond. But that diamond isn't real. At a base level the need to urinate and the feeling of love are both simple chemical reactions in one's brain. But that is where the similarity to our experience of the two cases ends. You can't equate the
experience of needing to urinate and loving somebody. That is because different areas of the brain are being effected in different ways by different chemicals running through different autonomic paths with different results.
However much you or I want love to be eternal it simply isn't. Which is totally unsatisfying on an emotional level. We want love to last forever. Nobody wants to stand by the corpse of a loved one; ever.
Quote from: Ali on January 27, 2012, 08:28:30 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:26:39 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 27, 2012, 08:22:22 PM
Don't you worry your little head about us, Egor. One of my dear friend is a minister (UU) with a Masters in Divinity. She informs me that atheists are "God's thinking children" and are as beloved to god as any other. According to her if there's a heaven, you'll see us there. ;) See, now you can spend your life focused on something more productive.
Unfortunately, your sister is wrong on that one.
I dunno.....she's pretty smart..... :P :P :P
Don't worry, Egor is "not a Christian" either, so he's in trouble too.
Quote from: EgorNice book. I'm not a Christian. (http://ravingatheists.com/forum/showpost.php?p=648749&postcount=23)
even from a religious perspective there isn't necessarily a reason to expect that you'd continue to love after death...ashes to ashes dust to dust; it ends at the grave either way. There are also some passages that indicate heaven is only praising god rather than continuing to live with those you were separated from on earth.
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 27, 2012, 08:31:59 PM
No. There are differences between physiological traits and evolved instincts. The fact that you try to demean my understanding of love by equating it to the bodies simplest (and to some) disgusting functions is not a victory for you.
You feel demeaned by my honest challenging of your beliefs? Is that what you feel? You feel attacked if someone counters one of your points.
QuoteRather it is a symptom of the fact that you do not have a valid argument to counter it without referring to the supernatural.
Quote
That one went by a little fast. How is poverty an evolved trait?
Correct. I misspoke. Poverty would be an environmental condition that favors a mutation that causes an organism evolve love, that is according to an evolutionary and atheistic view of love.
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:05:36 PM
Sure it does. If you stop the inhumane factory farming of turkeys and chickens, and industry I hate, I have nothing against the buildings, the grounds, and the grain storage bins of the previously, badly run factory farm. In fact, you can use that same factory to humanely raise chickens and turkeys.
Bit of a derail, but have you even seen what goes on in a poultry farm. There is nothing inhumane about it.
Quote from: Whitney on January 27, 2012, 08:33:25 PM
I figure that if god is real then life is a test that you pass by not buying into hateful religions and beliefs and generally being a good person.
I agree: Life is a test. Well, actually there are tests within life, life being the whole undergraduate program. But let me ask you this: Why would God care if you were generally a good person? If there is a God, why would he be watching over us like Santa Claus to see if we've been naughty or nice? We can be naughty or nice for all kinds of reasons. It's hardly even a criteria for judging someone.
Rather, if Jesus is right, it seems to be whether or not there is a fundamental spiritual change that takes place. He would say that once you've examined him and his life you have to choose, like the theif on the cross to recognize that you are not right and need to be with Him.
Much like a death row prisoner: If one is on death row for the worst of crimes, do we not almost see a different person should that person come to admit that they are bad, incapable of change, that they don't want to be that way anymore, that they are sorry, and that they have come to accept that their death is the only way to make things right for the victim, the victim's family, and for their own wretched human existence? If a death row inmate were like that, became like that, wouldn't they almost seem Christ-like, even though they may have been a horrible murderer? With that kind of fundamental change, we would literally be looking at a different person.
I think that's what judgement day is all about. I think that's what accepting Jesus Christ is all about.
Just as a side note: I'm actually going to write a book (I think it's third on my list) called Simple Christianity, and it takes an entirely different look at what real Christianity is based on the story of the theif on the cross. Unfortunately, that's probably a year from now. I'm half done with "Believing in God" and then I'm going to do "Our Immortal Soul."
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 27, 2012, 08:54:58 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:05:36 PM
Sure it does. If you stop the inhumane factory farming of turkeys and chickens, and industry I hate, I have nothing against the buildings, the grounds, and the grain storage bins of the previously, badly run factory farm. In fact, you can use that same factory to humanely raise chickens and turkeys.
Bit of a derail, but have you even seen what goes on in a poultry farm. There is nothing inhumane about it.
Granted, it does depend on the farm. We buy (supposedly) humanely raised beef and chicken. My wife is more in tune with that than I am. I'm more like my three dogs (Tortured, huh? Yeah, that's a damn shame. Well, you better just let me take care of that then. Just go ahead and put that in my bowel--I mean bowl.).
I have a dog that looks like budhorse's avatar up there. I think she actually prefers her chicken and beef tortured.
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:10:15 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 27, 2012, 06:34:18 PM
Do you just walk around all day making it a point to be intentionally thick? No, what I really think you do is feed on contention and anger. You're like a parasite of negativity. You need help. Get some fucking therapy you douchebag. Even Jesus can't stand you.
I know, Tank! I know! But this guy is seriously messed up. He's a trainwreck.
I don't get the feeling your Raving Atheist stuff is going to go over well in here. You know, you can identify a person by how they write. That's why I don't bother hiding my identity. Every group I go in knows who I am from five years ago, it seems.
Well, of course they do. One remembers a trainwreck when they see it. :-*
Egor, I think it's interesting that you think that if there is a god, he cares nothing for whether you are good or bad, but only if you believe in Jesus. That seems to be such a...I don't know....childlike view of life. Like, you can be as rotten as you feel like, but it's okay because someone else has already taken the fall for you. As long as you let him, of course. Fundamentally, it makes no sense to me that if there was a god, he would prefer that to what to me is a more adult approach. This is my life. My faults and my mistakes are my own. No one else needs to take the blame or punishment for me - I own what my actions and my consequences, and therefore try to live my life in as moral a way as possible.
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:59:28 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 27, 2012, 08:54:58 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:05:36 PM
Sure it does. If you stop the inhumane factory farming of turkeys and chickens, and industry I hate, I have nothing against the buildings, the grounds, and the grain storage bins of the previously, badly run factory farm. In fact, you can use that same factory to humanely raise chickens and turkeys.
Bit of a derail, but have you even seen what goes on in a poultry farm. There is nothing inhumane about it.
Granted, it does depend on the farm. We buy (supposedly) humanely raised beef and chicken. My wife is more in tune with that than I am. I'm more like my three dogs (Tortured, huh? Yeah, that's a damn shame. Well, you better just let me take care of that then. Just go ahead and put that in my bowel--I mean bowl.).
Yea, my animal science class just got done with our poultry processing unit. So I got a little defensive when people spout PETA BS that meat farms are cruel. ^^
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:39:27 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 27, 2012, 08:31:59 PM
No. There are differences between physiological traits and evolved instincts. The fact that you try to demean my understanding of love by equating it to the bodies simplest (and to some) disgusting functions is not a victory for you.
You feel demeaned by my honest challenging of your beliefs? Is that what you feel? You feel attacked if someone counters one of your points.
I did not say that I felt demeaned by your assertion that love is a physiological byproduct equal to passing gas. I'm just stating that your attempt to demean the consept of love is not a countering of the point I made, but an attempt to deflect away from actually providing a contradicting opinion based on the facts provided. I stated that love was an evolved instinct. You did nothing to to counter that statement. Am I to assume that you agree, but can't bring yourself to say it? Or is that truly the best you got?
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:39:27 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 27, 2012, 08:31:59 PM
No. There are differences between physiological traits and evolved instincts. The fact that you try to demean my understanding of love by equating it to the bodies simplest (and to some) disgusting functions is not a victory for you.
You feel demeaned by my honest challenging of your beliefs? Is that what you feel? You feel attacked if someone counters one of your points.
But you're not being honest are you? You're using an emotionally biased analogy to make your point. You're using a deliberately emotive connotation to troll your interlocutor.
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:26:39 PM
If there is no hell, there's no need for a Kingdom either. There's also no ultimate justice in the universe. So, the only way your sister can be right is if atheism is true. And if atheism is true, we're all just tapping at our keyboards because we are stimulated to do so.
Yup, and there's nothing wrong with that. Your idea of 'ultimate justice' is a sad joke Egor , just as well you (or your version of god) will never get to be a judge.
Quote from: Whitney on January 27, 2012, 08:33:25 PM
I figure that if god is real then life is a test that you pass by not buying into hateful religions and beliefs and generally being a good person.
I once read a short story where god, having created humanity many times and each time been disappointed enough to let them die out, is finally rewarded with the sort of offspring it always waned: intelligent enough to do their own thinking and independent enough to go their own way even when it meant defying god. Turned out god couldn't stand toadying yes-men either.
Quote from: Egor on January 27, 2012, 08:56:02 PM
Quote from: Whitney on January 27, 2012, 08:33:25 PM
I figure that if god is real then life is a test that you pass by not buying into hateful religions and beliefs and generally being a good person.
I agree: Life is a test. Well, actually there are tests within life, life being the whole undergraduate program. But let me ask you this: Why would God care if you were generally a good person? If there is a God, why would he be watching over us like Santa Claus to see if we've been naughty or nice? We can be naughty or nice for all kinds of reasons. It's hardly even a criteria for judging someone.
Rather, if Jesus is right, it seems to be whether or not there is a fundamental spiritual change that takes place. He would say that once you've examined him and his life you have to choose, like the theif on the cross to recognize that you are not right and need to be with Him.
Much like a death row prisoner: If one is on death row for the worst of crimes, do we not almost see a different person should that person come to admit that they are bad, incapable of change, that they don't want to be that way anymore, that they are sorry, and that they have come to accept that their death is the only way to make things right for the victim, the victim's family, and for their own wretched human existence? If a death row inmate were like that, became like that, wouldn't they almost seem Christ-like, even though they may have been a horrible murderer? With that kind of fundamental change, we would literally be looking at a different person.
I think that's what judgement day is all about. I think that's what accepting Jesus Christ is all about.
No, a death row inmate would not be able to make any kind of change to make me think they are "christ-like" unless by Christ-like you mean evil bastard who is sorry he got caught.
How we act towards other people is a great basis for judging another person....certainly much more sound than if they arbitrarily decide to claim to follow some religion. Your version of god is very shallow and petty...but that's how he's shown in the bible too so whatever; it's just not very philosophically sound when you take the time to think about it actually being true.
Quote from: Whitney on January 28, 2012, 02:44:13 AM
Your version of god is very shallow and petty...but that's how he's shown in the bible too so whatever; it's just not very philosophically sound when you take the time to think about it actually being true.
My version of God? My version of God is that God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness. He's our Creator; we are his creatures. We are to become what Jesus Christ was, because Jesus Christ was God conscious of Himself from within His creation. This is the end of human evolution.
I don't think that's a shallow version.
Christlike? What the hell is that supposed to mean anyway? Shall we go to church and when the offering plate is handed to us, shall we tip it over and yell at the Holy men? Bring extra wine to a wedding? Shall we disown our family?
Let's apply some of Christ's teachings to life of today.
Matthew:15:22-28 for reference.
Woman of a different race: "Do you know which bus goes downtown?"
Christlike person: "I do not give information to dogs."
Woman: "It's true, the people of my race are dogs."
Christian: "All right then, since you admit it: take bus 68."
How about Matthew 8: 21.
You are an employer and have a huge contract deadline to make. In the middle of the contract the father of one of your employees dies and the employee wants to take funeral leave. To be Christlike, what do you do? You do not give the man funeral leave. Instead of empathizing with the man's loss, you would make a cruel remark such as "let the dead bury their dead."
The perfect God's perfect way to salvation.
• Abandon all your Earthly ambitions.
• Forsake your Earthly family and give your loyalty to God and your fellow believers.
• Sell everything you own and use the money to do good works.
• Avoid receiving any Earthly reward for your good works.
• Follow the Mosaic Law, both the letter and the spirit of it.
• Abstain from all sin, inside and out;
• Abstain from covetousness
• Abstain from anger
• Abstain from lust.
• Abstain from adultery.
• Do WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO to abstain from lust.
• Practice strict nonviolent pacifism.
• Do not resist evil.
• Do not strike back.
• Do good to those who hate you.
• Practice mercy and forgiveness and peacemaking.
• Do not judge others; Judgment Day will come soon enough.
• Seek to purify your own character, strive to "be perfect, even as your father in Heaven is perfect."
• Over-fulfill the Law seeking to follow the spirit of it as well as the letter.
• Practice forgiveness, mercy, reconciliation, and peacemaking.
• Kill those that do not believe.
• Abstain from swearing false oaths.
Never mind the contradictions or the "Do as I say, not as I do" philosophy of the perfect Christ. Never mind the teachings of Paul; he taught a different religion, that being his own. Become Christlike, not Paullike. It What Would Jesus Do, not What Would Paul Do.Honestly, if Christians cannot or will not do the things taught to them by the perfect Christ (as written within the Bible and many of them quoted above), they simply do not deserve to be called "Christian".
Quote from: Egor on January 28, 2012, 11:26:43 AM
My version of God?
Yes, your version...the one you made up in your head just like all other believers; except that the way you describe god makes him out to be petty and apparently amoral since you said it doesn't care if people are good or not.
Quote from: Gawen on January 28, 2012, 11:51:18 AM
• Kill those that do not believe.
Where do you find this as part of being Christlike or as being part of God's way to salvation? Where did Christ kill or tell his followers to kill?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 28, 2012, 04:29:02 PM
Quote from: Gawen on January 28, 2012, 11:51:18 AM
• Kill those that do not believe.
Where do you find this as part of being Christlike or as being part of God's way to salvation? Where did Christ kill or tell his followers to kill?
I think this gets into that whole issue of if the OT is still applicable or not.
Quote from: Whitney on January 28, 2012, 04:50:29 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 28, 2012, 04:29:02 PM
Quote from: Gawen on January 28, 2012, 11:51:18 AM
• Kill those that do not believe.
Where do you find this as part of being Christlike or as being part of God's way to salvation? Where did Christ kill or tell his followers to kill?
I think this gets into that whole issue of if the OT is still applicable or not.
Wait a minute; if Gawen's writings require interpretation, might it not be possible that the Gospels need interpretation to understand them? The Gospels are so deeply interwoven with symbolism, allegory, secret wisdom and even riddles meant to be figured out that to just take them on the surface so concretely would only lead to destruction.
You have to be spiritual in nature to read the Gospels and understand them. They are mystical documents. Talking to atheists about the true meaning of the teachings of Jesus Christ is pretty much pointless. Jesus had another way of describing it, but I'd probably be banned for saying it. That's the power of Christ for you.
Quote from: Egor on January 28, 2012, 08:45:55 PM
Quote from: Whitney on January 28, 2012, 04:50:29 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 28, 2012, 04:29:02 PM
Quote from: Gawen on January 28, 2012, 11:51:18 AM
• Kill those that do not believe.
Where do you find this as part of being Christlike or as being part of God's way to salvation? Where did Christ kill or tell his followers to kill?
I think this gets into that whole issue of if the OT is still applicable or not.
Wait a minute; if Gawen's writings require interpretation, might it not be possible that the Gospels need interpretation to understand them? The Gospels are so deeply interwoven with symbolism, allegory, secret wisdom and even riddles meant to be figured out that to just take them on the surface so concretely would only lead to destruction.
You have to be spiritual in nature to read the Gospels and understand them. They are mystical documents. Talking to atheists about the true meaning of the teachings of Jesus Christ is pretty much pointless. Jesus had another way of describing it, but I'd probably be banned for saying it. That's the power of Christ for you.
If God can't manage to communicate unambiguiously he really is a fucking waste of space.
Quote from: Egor on January 28, 2012, 08:45:55 PM
You have to be spiritual in nature to read the Gospels and understand them.
Translation: You have to already believe the BS in order for the BS to make sense.
Quote from: Tank on January 28, 2012, 08:52:31 PM
If God can't manage to communicate unambiguiously he really is a fucking waste of space.
It also contradicts what I was told in my church-going days -- that
anyone could read the gospels and understand them and be convinced of their truth. In fact, atheists were encouraged to read the bible as a sure-fire means of converting them. It doesn't work that way for many of us (quite the opposite in fact, so Ed may have a point -- only people in a gibberish frame of mind can understand gibberish) but it is such an absolute belief that I've been told flat out I
have to be lying when I tell them that reading the bible actually helped de-convert me.
(Edited to note: Ali, damn you, you beat me to it!)
Quote from: Tank on January 28, 2012, 08:52:31 PM
If God can't manage to communicate unambiguiously he really is a fucking waste of space.
Yahwee needs a course in communications.
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 28, 2012, 09:09:50 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 28, 2012, 08:52:31 PM
If God can't manage to communicate unambiguiously he really is a fucking waste of space.
Yahwee needs a course in communications.
And human resources....and public relations...and sociology....and a course in parenting would really help.
Well, hell. God just needs to grow up!
So much for perfection.
Quote from: Egor on January 28, 2012, 08:45:55 PM
Jesus had another way of describing it, but I'd probably be banned for saying it. That's the power of Christ for you.
Are you implying that Jesus is uncivil and wouldn't be able to post here without getting banned? Sounds like self projection as god to me.
Quote from: Egor
Wait a minute; if Gawen's writings require interpretation...
I thought what I wrote was rather straight forward. Or is it that you are so consumed by symbolism, allegory and defining secret wisdom that you cannot understand what I say...
Quote...might it not be possible that the Gospels need interpretation to understand them?
For something ambiguously and vaguely written with a good portion of it written for Jews, well, I see that you have no choice.
QuoteThe Gospels are so deeply interwoven with symbolism, allegory, secret wisdom and even riddles meant to be figured out that to just take them on the surface so concretely would only lead to destruction.
Gosh, and all this from a loving God. The only thing missing in the Bible is a crossword and sudoku puzzle.
QuoteYou have to be spiritual in nature to read the Gospels and understand them.
I don't recall seeing in the Bible that this is so. Care to share a piece of scripture?
QuoteThey are mystical documents.
I really do not see the mysticism of:
Abandon all your Earthly ambitions.
• Forsake your Earthly family and give your loyalty to God and your fellow believers.
• Sell everything you own and use the money to do good works.
• Avoid receiving any Earthly reward for your good works.
• Follow the Mosaic Law, both the letter and the spirit of it.
etc.
QuoteTalking to atheists about the true meaning of the teachings of Jesus Christ is pretty much pointless.
Another fallacy.
QuoteJesus had another way of describing it, but I'd probably be banned for saying it.
I would wager not if you put verse numbers with it.
QuoteThat's the power of Christ for you.
Well, that's a lot of woo. We've seen gobs of the perfect power of perfect Jesus in the last 200 centuries. Why, He's even set a record this year and it ain't even done with the first month!
You're full of air Egor. But the air isn't even hot air, what with the cold and heartless things some of you say to us. Symbolism, allegory and alleged secret wisdom leads you only to the god in your imagination. The last thing I would say to you is:
"Seek to purify your own character, strive to "be perfect, even as your father in Heaven is perfect." before you seek to condemn others for their alleged imperfections.
Quote from: Gawen on January 28, 2012, 11:32:15 PM
Quote from: Egor
Wait a minute; if Gawen's writings require interpretation...
I thought what I wrote was rather straight forward. Or is it that you are so consumed by symbolism, allegory and defining secret wisdom that you cannot understand what I say...
It is great that you are around Gawen so that we can ask you for clarification. Otherwise I am sure we would get it wrong.
Imagine if our eternal happiness or damnation was based on getting it right and if you couldn't be bothered to clarify, we'd be up shit creek.
Quote from: Whitney on January 28, 2012, 11:22:05 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 28, 2012, 08:45:55 PM
Jesus had another way of describing it, but I'd probably be banned for saying it. That's the power of Christ for you.
Are you implying that Jesus is uncivil and wouldn't be able to post here without getting banned? Sounds like self projection as god to me.
That's one of the perks of creating gods.
Quote from: Egor
The Gospels are so deeply interwoven with symbolism, allegory, secret wisdom and even riddles meant to be figured out that to just take them on the surface so concretely would only lead to destruction.
I have a feeling anyone who wished to could take any book in the world --
Bambi, for instance -- and make the same claim.
Quote from: Egor on January 28, 2012, 08:45:55 PM
The Gospels are so deeply interwoven with symbolism, allegory, secret wisdom and even riddles meant to be figured out that to just take them on the surface so concretely would only lead to destruction.
You have to be spiritual in nature to read the Gospels and understand them. They are mystical documents. Talking to atheists about the true meaning of the teachings of Jesus Christ is pretty much pointless. Jesus had another way of describing it, but I'd probably be banned for saying it. That's the power of Christ for you.
I actually agree with you Egor in that the gospels are interwoven with symbolism, allegory, secret wisdom and even riddles, as well as even stranger stuff like isopsephia. My problem would be that it is Christians like you lack the vision to see this, not atheists. You misinterpret allegorical myths as literal history and then base you life on them.
To quote you above 'to just take them on the surface so concretely would only lead to destruction'...
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 29, 2012, 12:51:49 AM
Quote from: Egor
The Gospels are so deeply interwoven with symbolism, allegory, secret wisdom and even riddles meant to be figured out that to just take them on the surface so concretely would only lead to destruction.
I have a feeling anyone who wished to could take any book in the world -- Bambi, for instance -- and make the same claim.
And don't even get me started on Star Wars or Lord of the Rings. ;D
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 29, 2012, 02:38:43 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 29, 2012, 12:51:49 AM
Quote from: Egor
The Gospels are so deeply interwoven with symbolism, allegory, secret wisdom and even riddles meant to be figured out that to just take them on the surface so concretely would only lead to destruction.
I have a feeling anyone who wished to could take any book in the world -- Bambi, for instance -- and make the same claim.
And don't even get me started on Star Wars or Lord of the Rings. ;D
That obsession takes me back to my high school days. *shudder*
Quote from: Stevil on January 28, 2012, 11:53:53 PM
Quote from: Gawen on January 28, 2012, 11:32:15 PM
Quote from: Egor
Wait a minute; if Gawen's writings require interpretation...
I thought what I wrote was rather straight forward. Or is it that you are so consumed by symbolism, allegory and defining secret wisdom that you cannot understand what I say...
It is great that you are around Gawen so that we can ask you for clarification. Otherwise I am sure we would get it wrong.
Imagine if our eternal happiness or damnation was based on getting it right and if you couldn't be bothered to clarify, we'd be up shit creek.
Don't you know it!...*chucklin*. And I don't claim that I'm perfect either. Can you imagine what life would be like if, say, the medical field claimed itself to be perfect and all the text books were written in allegory, symbolism and secret wisdom? And all the medical instructors, knowing they are perfect talked to their med students in parables and metaphor? And the surgeon general utters wisdom revealed such as, when they find a barren woman she must be killed because she can bare no fruit...or eat anything you want, washed or unwashed, because it's clean going in. And then one day, through badly mistaken altruism all the instructors and doctors voluntarily hang themselves to save everyone from every malady? But 2000 years later everyone still gets sick? Perfect...hogwash.
It wasn't all that different for a long time. Much of what was taken to be medical knowledge constituted 'revealed wisdom' for a very long time. The work of Galen was taken to be sacrosanct, despite the fact that dissections were being carried out that demonstrated that much of what he said was wrong. His work was taught to all students at the University of Basel (among other centres of learning) until the arrival of Paracelsus, who challenged Galenic medicine and began to put it on a sound empirical footing, moving away from the doctrine of 'humors' and beginning to apply chemistry to medicine for the first time.
Of course, much of what Paracelsus said was also nonsense, but it started the ball rolling toward a more empirical approach to medicine.