The God Delusion

[Hector Valdez]

Well, you don't have to be deluded about it, though. Personally I don't think religion is directly responsible for hate/bigotry/social prejudices. More likely, as human societies become more civil and open, so will religions adopt this attitude and "stay current" so to speak.

[Stevil]

Well, you don't have to be deluded about it, though. Personally I don't think religion is directly responsible for hate/bigotry/social prejudices. More likely, as human societies become more civil and open, so will religions adopt this attitude and "stay current" so to speak.

Religion itself is benign.
As an atheist do I care if a person presses their hands together and makes a wish?

The dangerous part of religion is their morality.
With morality, the religious look to stone transgressors, or burn witches and heretics or oppress homosexuals, or subjugate women.

[DeterminedJuliet]

Plus, when you have a very specific ancient religious text that's supposed to be the basis of a religion, it doesn't exactly push the followers towards being "current" or even keeping in touch with modern society. Plenty of religious people do, but I don't think it's by virtue of their religion, I think it's in spite of their religion.

[Hector Valdez]

But morality isn't part of religion! Regardless of what any religious individual says, the vast majority of people in america do not stone their children, do not practice slavery, do not murder or rape, etc, and they still wouldn't do these things if god didn't exist! (By the way, the idea that they would if god let them off the hook is actually a religious low blow aimed at atheists. Christians can't understand why atheists are moral, because to them being a christian is part of morality. At the same time, this moral idea is NOT a product of religion, and would easily be washed away by the further developing morality of society.)

Morality is societal. It is based on cultural mores and concepts, as well as expectations over which religion simply adds window dressing, and no amount of religious posturing will ever change the fact that any society will develop it's morality based on secular and environmental factors!

In other words, even if you abolish religion, you won't abolish slavery. Ending slavery and the like comes from ending slavery and the like, and this just so happens to be easier if you have a point of reference like a religion with which to couch your ideas!


GRRRRR!!!!

[DeterminedJuliet]

I agree that abolishing religion, isn't a magic fix for all of the world's woes (I, personally, have no interest in abolishing religion. I would just like it to stay in the private sphere).

But I think that, in some parts of the world, there is a very strong link between "morality" and religion. If you talk to a Christian or Muslim fundamentalist, for example, or go to a place where they have a lot of political power, there is definitely a religion/morality tie that's hard to ignore. Now, of course, their sense of morality won't be the same as ours, but that's how they conceive it and it's pretty politically relevant.

[Guardian85]

I usually say atheism is a religion the same way not smoking is a habit.

Can I put this in my signature?

As long as yours truly is credited the quote, knock yourself out!

[Stevil]

Morality is a vague word.

I think "morality" is derived from people's intent to make the "right" decision.
The "right" decision is derived from a perception of "good" and "bad". Religions rephrase this as "Good" and "Evil".

As you may know already, it is often difficult to tell good from bad. Life is complex and there are no absolutes. Secular people recognise that "morality" is subjective. In my opinion subjective morality isn't morality at all, instead it is personal values, something to guide the self but not to judge others by.

But a lot of people don't like this idea, that morality isn't absolute. They don't like the responsibility of working out right from wrong themselves. They don't trust themselves and don't want the guilt of making bad decisions. The inventors of religion are aware of this and came up with an answer. An all perfect, all knowing entity that can do no wrong. Now we have a perfect guide and the responsibility is now on the church to interpret the will of the all perfect entity rather than on the imperfect self.
However, the consequence of having an absolute morality is that all people ought to obey it. Those that don't obey are "Evil" and are corrupting and ruining the world for others. Believers now point to non believers and suggest that they are guilty of "Pride" by thinking that their own morality is better than god's.

In Christianity, it is immoral not to believe. No doubt this concept was added to that religion in order to convince people to believe. But the consequence is that the Christian believers think non believers are "Evil" and are corrupting and ruining the world for others. We are one of the least trusted groups in America even though we haven't done anything in the name of atheism, no suicide bombs, no exploding buildings, no violence in the name of atheism.

In days gone by, when Christianity based leaders ruled by tyranny, they were justified in slaughtering the "Evil" non believers, or believers of the "wrong" faith.
In today's times, Christianity based leaders sometimes rule by oppression, they are justified in oppressing the "Evil" homosexuals.
This is the undeniable consequence of morality, a belief in absolute right and absolute wrong.

We ought not further develop morality within society. Morality is a tool of oppression and hate. We ought to stop believing in morality. Cast it aside as we would the old torture devices of the past.

If atheists recognise their "morality" simply as personal values, and if religions teach their "morality" as religious values to be taken on by the faithful as personal values, then we will stop judging each other, stop oppressing each other. We will then be capable of accepting diversity and accepting each other despite our individual beliefs.

[Sweetdeath]

You say ridding society of religion will not change anything, but I disagree. There are whole cultures made with religion as its center, like many places in the middle  East.

Try telling a muslim who prays five times a day that  women and non muslims should be treated with equallity. 
and I dont know if you've noticed, but religions love to isolate their followers from reality as much as possible. Look at extreme jewish cultures, where they cannot marry outside the  religion.

People who follow religion do heinus acts, but mostly because they are preached hatred by their "holy" books and texts.

[Amicale]

I agree that abolishing religion, isn't a magic fix for all of the world's woes (I, personally, have no interest in abolishing religion. I would just like it to stay in the private sphere).

This is where I come from, too. I have no interest in abolishing religion; in fact, I really, REALLY don't want to.

Why? Well, how would we do it, exactly?

Tell churches, synagogues and mosques to close their doors? That doesn't abolish religion, that sends it underground to individual houses.

Educate the people until they're force-fed atheism and brainwashed into believing it? How does that make us any better than the most fundamentalist preacher, and how does that give people a free choice on how to live their lives?

Actively punish anyone secretly caught worshipping/believing in God? That turns us into a police/nanny state. I wouldn't want to live in it. I'd move.

I'm interested in people having the freedom to think their own thoughts, have their own ideas, and I want them to be able to disagree with me.

Like DJ said, though, I just want this in the private sphere. The government and religion need to not intersect officially.

[Stevil]

Like DJ said, though, I just want this in the private sphere. The government and religion need to not intersect officially.

Well, as any organisation operating within a society, the organisation is due to obey the rules governing that society. No exemptions!

[Amicale]

Like DJ said, though, I just want this in the private sphere. The government and religion need to not intersect officially.

Well, as any organisation operating within a society, the organisation is due to obey the rules governing that society. No exemptions!

Oh, sure. Of course. Sorry, I'll clarify. I didn't mean that members of a religion shouldn't follow their nation's laws (unless, of course, those laws are actively harmful/dangerous). I meant that religion shouldn't officially interfere with government rule, and the government shouldn't try to control the actions/beliefs of religious adherents, assuming that the religious adherents aren't doing anything harmful or dangerous, either.

Basically, if the religious folks just want to be peaceful, believe in their ideas, and not hurt anyone, I say go to it without official government opposition.

Should go without saying that in the private sphere, all bets are off and we criticize the heck out of each other.

[Stevil]

Like DJ said, though, I just want this in the private sphere. The government and religion need to not intersect officially.

Well, as any organisation operating within a society, the organisation is due to obey the rules governing that society. No exemptions!

Oh, sure. Of course. Sorry, I'll clarify. I didn't mean that members of a religion shouldn't follow their nation's laws (unless, of course, those laws are actively harmful/dangerous). I meant that religion shouldn't officially interfere with government rule, and the government shouldn't try to control the actions/beliefs of religious adherents, assuming that the religious adherents aren't doing anything harmful or dangerous, either.

Basically, if the religious folks just want to be peaceful, believe in their ideas, and not hurt anyone, I say go to it without official government opposition.

Should go without saying that in the private sphere, all bets are off and we criticize the heck out of each other.

I know it seemed a bit silly of me to say that, but there are people that think separation of church and state means that church are exempt from laws and taxes.

[Amicale]

Like DJ said, though, I just want this in the private sphere. The government and religion need to not intersect officially.

Well, as any organisation operating within a society, the organisation is due to obey the rules governing that society. No exemptions!

Oh, sure. Of course. Sorry, I'll clarify. I didn't mean that members of a religion shouldn't follow their nation's laws (unless, of course, those laws are actively harmful/dangerous). I meant that religion shouldn't officially interfere with government rule, and the government shouldn't try to control the actions/beliefs of religious adherents, assuming that the religious adherents aren't doing anything harmful or dangerous, either.

Basically, if the religious folks just want to be peaceful, believe in their ideas, and not hurt anyone, I say go to it without official government opposition.

Should go without saying that in the private sphere, all bets are off and we criticize the heck out of each other.

I know it seemed a bit silly of me to say that, but there are people that think separation of church and state means that church are exempt from laws and taxes.

Oh, no, it was actually a good point to make, since it got me to clarify.

[Hector Valdez]

You say ridding society of religion will not change anything, but I disagree. There are whole cultures made with religion as its center, like many places in the middle  East.

Try telling a muslim who prays five times a day that  women and non muslims should be treated with equallity. 
and I dont know if you've noticed, but religions love to isolate their followers from reality as much as possible. Look at extreme jewish cultures, where they cannot marry outside the  religion.

People who follow religion do heinus acts, but mostly because they are preached hatred by their "holy" books and texts.

ARRRGGGHHH!!!!!!! The muslim caliphate was the most forward looking empire in the world during medieval times! Human's have have over ten thousands years from their first appearance to develop morally, but that doesn't mean it'll happen overnight or only in one direction!!!!!!

*throws hands up in air*
I give up. Nothing ever changes in all the millions of years that lead to this moment. Now pass me that jar of leeches. I have a headache.

[DeterminedJuliet]

You seem easily frustrated.

Would it bother you if Christians claimed that religion makes the world a better place? Is it really so surprising that atheists tend to believe that it makes the world a poorer place?