Hebrew Atheist Billboard Finds a New Home

[Sweetdeath]

I feel a bit frustrated. What Asmo says makes a lot of sense.
I suppose I have a hard time conveying my exact feelings onto words in this forum. It seems to get jumbled. I usually reply from my smartphone around friends, and even when I am alone, i have a hard time writing a lot because i can't think of exactly how to do it. The way i speak and am irl are different almost than how i reply in this forum. Not that i not being, but i almost feel nervous replying in some threads.

I have been misunderstood before. It's no one's fault really but my own, but i really want to state that just because i wrote that sentence doesn't mean i was saying "ah bleh, the holocaust wasn't a big deal, whatever."

In the future, i will think harder before pressing submit, or just try to elaborate more. I kind of feel like Asmo sometimes where i just 'don't care' but i am not even a cold person irl, I am just me. I have always had a hard time exactly expressing what my mind is thinking.

I have been on this forum for a while now, and i really haven't felt this way til now. I can be called silly and even immature.. Sure--- but racist or heartless or cold-- I am not those things. I understand my opinion can differ a lot from others and even seem like i seriously make posts because i don't give a shit, but it's not the case.

I almost feel as if i am not expected to make such weird statements. I don't mind trying harder to get my point across, i just honestly feel my original post wouldn't cause such a stir. I certainly wasn't intending to offend anyone.

It's also just easier to say things a loud or in my head. The way i say them seem less harsh and more joking than reading emotionless sounding words on a forum thread.

Anyway, I am seriously trying to explain myself. I don't want to have a reputation...

I don't mind being someone i am, but being cold and racist isn't me. I will try harder, Tank. Even if that means i'll post a lot less from now on.

[Asmodean]

Thing is, when you make short and highly insensitive replies about what many people cconsider a touchy subject, you sort of have to be prepared to engage those who take offence and defend your views, which usually means presenting them more fully and explaining what drives you to think the way you do.

Pretty muh everything can be misinterpreted, especially when people, consciously or otherwise, look for the worst of meanings your words can have. That is part of the reason why I prefer not to write between the lines more than I have to when discussing volatile issues and as a result of that, political correctness usually goes out of the window.

I sort of came to the rescue when you got attacked by implication for the comment that sparked the current debate because I did not interprete your comment as necessarilly racist, anti-semite or whatever some might call it, so I continued what I assumed to be your line of thought by equating it to my own and defending it with what appears to be a moderate to good degree of success.

And therein lies today's lesson: If you hold a controversial opinion and want to share it with others, you have to be prepared to constructively defend it.

[Sweetdeath]

Thanks Asmo. I really do appreciate it. You coming to my rescue? Now you're going to make a lot of people jealous! I don't want to get death threats!

But you're absolutely right. I can't make such short statements like those. I will think more clearly about what I write and be prepared to defend my position if I have to. I don't mind doing such things. It's all about being fair to everyone on this forum. I'll try harder from now on. I'm at a friend's at the moment, so i have access to a laptop, there for i can type at least four to five times faster than on my little android phone. (seriously, it hurts my fingers after a while.)

Anyway, i will definitely take everyone's words to heart and become better at expressing myself in a way that can be understood a lot more clearly. Thanks!

[Guardian85]

And with that the storm in this particular glass of water has abbated.

So hebrew atheistic billboard? How about that!

[Sweetdeath]

And with that the storm in this particular glass of water has abbated.

So hebrew atheistic billboard? How about that!

I actually do think the billboard is really cool! I don't go into brooklyn often, but i wouldn't mind seeing that while walking about.

[Firebird]

I think this is a dangerous mentality too, frankly. While it may be unthinkable now, it's not impossible to imagine a society where our fellow atheists are persecuted for our beliefs.

No, it is not hard to imagine at all.

How would we recognize the signs without learning about the past and what happened then?

By comparing treatment of different groups by said society. If one stands out as being treated differently to all the others, well, there's your first warning sign. That said, I am not saying we can not learn from the past - just that, in my very subjective opinion, far too many people should let it go and look forward, as opposed to dwell on it for fear of repeating it in terms of magnitude, not of polar opposites. It's not "fuck history", it's "prioritize now and tomorrow over yesterday".

It's not about a "pity party"

...And when it is not, I am open to a serious discussion of the subject, kind of like the one we are having now. But if someone decides to compare something to the holocaust, that something has to be at least close to genocide - otherwise, my martyr-warning lights go off like popcorn in the microwave oven.

It's honoring them, giving some meaning to their lives, learning about what they endured to ensure it does not happen again. Honoring those people and making sure they're not forgotten is extremely important if we're going to continue to improve and advance as a society.

I'm sorry if it sounds brutal, but it's not my job to give someone's life - or death - a meaning. My job is giving my own life a meaning, so that perhaps others will find it meaningful as well. That said...

I've talked to holocaust survivors (Well... Drop the last s, really), and listened to the stories of it all with interest, without insulting the person in question even once or being incredibly insensitive towards her experiences. However, when someone born in the seventies - long after WW2 - starts using phrases like "It's like new holocaust" or in other ways using it to describe being wronged in a non-life, freedom and basic human dignity depriving way, especially if the action is aimed at everyone and not a single group within society (For instance, making infant circumision illegal here in Norway - in debates, the holocaust card was played several times, although every single person in the country would be equal under that law, be it the majority, jew, muslim or a resident Swede), then I think that individual is using the events of the past in all the wrong ways and for all the wrong reasons. In fact, were I a holocaust survivor, I'd probably be deeply offended by it, as when used enough in this fashion, the edge of the "real" holocaust card is inevitably dulled.

That was a mother of a sentence up there... Hope it's coherent.

That makes sense. I do agree that we should not trivialize such things, which I believe is what you were saying. A good analogy is all the people who say "Obama is Hitler", or comparing a tax plan to Nazi Germany's plan to wipe out a populace. It's often a false analogy. So I agree with you there.

[DeterminedJuliet]

And therein lies today's lesson: If you hold a controversial opinion and want to share it with others, you have to be prepared to constructively defend it.

This, pretty much. Even if someone admitted to being blatantly racist/bigoted, I'd still be interested in hearing their input so long as they could construct an argument that wasn't just a string of spammy racist words. I know that's not really the policy here, as I think there are rules on the forum against hate speech and that kind of thing, but that'd be my feelings on it. I'm pretty pro-free speech.

[Asmodean]

That makes sense. I do agree that we should not trivialize such things, which I believe is what you were saying. A good analogy is all the people who say "Obama is Hitler", or comparing a tax plan to Nazi Germany's plan to wipe out a populace. It's often a false analogy. So I agree with you there.

Yes, it is what I am saying.

Both Hitler and holoaust are valid cards to play - when they are called for. It's not that they ARE being used, it's HOW.

In fact, when the president of Iran goes out and denies that holocaust took place in the first place, he is doing a biger service to keeping the right memories alive (By unintentionally raising awareness) than some people who try to use it to their advantage (By re-defining the meaning of the word in what usually is a highly trivializing way)

[Tom62]

Yes, it is what I am saying.

Both Hitler and holoaust are valid cards to play - when they are called for. It's not that they ARE being used, it's HOW.

In fact, when the president of Iran goes out and denies that holocaust took place in the first place, he is doing a biger service to keeping the right memories alive (By unintentionally raising awareness) than some people who try to use it to their advantage (By re-defining the meaning of the word in what usually is a highly trivializing way)

Interesting thoughts. I guess that the opposite is also true. By forbidding the denial of the holocaust, one creates a kind of dogma, that causes people to think that the holocaust didn't happen. Why would you believe that something must be true or false, when this is forced upon you by politicians who are known to be flexible with the truth anyway?

[Tank]

Yes, it is what I am saying.

Both Hitler and holoaust are valid cards to play - when they are called for. It's not that they ARE being used, it's HOW.

In fact, when the president of Iran goes out and denies that holocaust took place in the first place, he is doing a biger service to keeping the right memories alive (By unintentionally raising awareness) than some people who try to use it to their advantage (By re-defining the meaning of the word in what usually is a highly trivializing way)

Interesting thoughts. I guess that the opposite is also true. By forbidding the denial of the holocaust, one creates a kind of dogma, that causes people to think that the holocaust didn't happen. Why would you believe that something must be true or false, when this is forced upon you by politicians who are known to be flexible with the truth anyway?

That's an interesting point. But one has to consider that Holocaust denial is a political position itself, it's not a valid reflection of the 'truth' and if people can be allowed to create their own truth, irrespective of reality, then people can justify anything they want.

[Tom62]

Interesting thoughts. I guess that the opposite is also true. By forbidding the denial of the holocaust, one creates a kind of dogma, that causes people to think that the holocaust didn't happen. Why would you believe that something must be true or false, when this is forced upon you by politicians who are known to be flexible with the truth anyway?

That's an interesting point. But one has to consider that Holocaust denial is a political position itself, it's not a valid reflection of the 'truth' and if people can be allowed to create their own truth, irrespective of reality, then people can justify anything they want.

I fully agree with you. But, it is very hard to get to know the "real" truth, when facts are obscured, hidden or denied by "the powers that be". It also raises the big question in how far we are willing to protect the freedom of speech.

[Firebird]

Interesting thoughts. I guess that the opposite is also true. By forbidding the denial of the holocaust, one creates a kind of dogma, that causes people to think that the holocaust didn't happen. Why would you believe that something must be true or false, when this is forced upon you by politicians who are known to be flexible with the truth anyway?

That's an interesting point. But one has to consider that Holocaust denial is a political position itself, it's not a valid reflection of the 'truth' and if people can be allowed to create their own truth, irrespective of reality, then people can justify anything they want.

I fully agree with you. But, it is very hard to get to know the "real" truth, when facts are obscured, hidden or denied by "the powers that be". It also raises the big question in how far we are willing to protect the freedom of speech.

Yeah, that's the major difference with the US and Europe as far as speech goes. Holocaust denial is not a crime here, nor is saying someone is a "slut" like Rush Limbaugh recently did, or most other speech, no matter how distasteful or obviously untrue. The only exceptions include yelling "fire" in a theater (ie, endangering the public through your speech) or making any kind of threat against the president, even a BS one online.
And frankly, I'm ok with that. It's tough to tolerate at times, but I think it does make us a stronger country overall.