Question for Struggling Atheists

[Ali]

Yeah, I would love to be a theist.  It definitely leads to a happier life I think.  If I had a choice, of course I'd chose there to be a God and to live after death. 

Yes, and a drunkard is happier then a sober man.

And let's bear in mind as well that any "X is happier than Y" statement is true only on a personal level and purely speculative otherwise.  For me, atheism was the main happiness making factor in my life -- it simplifed things and made sense.  I love that sort of thing.  The whole god business that I tried so hard to believe was just confusing, bizarre and sometimes depressing (depending on what version of god was being pushed). 

While I don't buy the concept of an afterlife, at least not one that's been described in any major religion so far, I DO understand very well why some folks would buy into that comfort and hope. And honestly, if they need that support, that belief to get them through the day and comfort them while they're grieving, I don't feel right being the one to argue with it, or try to convince them otherwise.

This.  My stepmother knows perfectly well I'm an atheist but still made comments about Dad being in a better place and being able to feel his spirit nearby and knowing I could too.  And I did not contradict her.  If that's what she needed, she was welcome to it without commentary from me.

Yeah, I get this too.  My mom talks sometimes about her mom (my grandma) watching over her from Heaven.  I would never argue with her about it.  If that gives her some comfort, I'm happy that she has it.  I love my mom; why would I want to take away something that brings her solace? 

[Amicale]

Yeah, I get this too.  My mom talks sometimes about her mom (my grandma) watching over her from Heaven.  I would never argue with her about it.  If that gives her some comfort, I'm happy that she has it.  I love my mom; why would I want to take away something that brings her solace? 

This.

The only exception I'd make is if a loved one was doing something that was harmful in order to find solace -- harming themselves physically, drinking themselves into oblivion every night, etc. In that case, I'd step in, because I wouldn't want them to continue to harm themselves, and because there are other methods for getting comfort that have nothing to do with putting your life at risk. A simple belief in an afterlife or heaven, on the other hand, certainly doesn't endanger your physical health or put anyone's life at risk. Which is why I'm very happy to let my family members believe whatever will give them some comfort in that respect -- if they need to believe that they'll see their parents, grandparents again etc, that's absolutely fine with me.

Sorry to hijack this and twist it into a commentary on harm, but I was just thinking of a friend from years ago, who I routinely had to take weapons away from because she was depressed, was harming herself, and told me 'leave me alone, it brings me peace and solace and comfort to do this, you don't understand' -- but in my mind, she'd stepped over the border of 'harmless belief' into 'life threatening action', so there's a time and place to step in and object to what someone's saying/doing.... but a simple belief in heaven just ain't it.

[Asmodean]

Yeah, I get this too.  My mom talks sometimes about her mom (my grandma) watching over her from Heaven.  I would never argue with her about it.  If that gives her some comfort, I'm happy that she has it.  I love my mom; why would I want to take away something that brings her solace? 

I'm usually a near-rude blunthammer when it omes to this. I'm not out to hurt people or rub some salt into their loss, but I don't do dishonesty when it comes to my views on the afterlife, gods and willing self-delusion.

[Amicale]

Yeah, I get this too.  My mom talks sometimes about her mom (my grandma) watching over her from Heaven.  I would never argue with her about it.  If that gives her some comfort, I'm happy that she has it.  I love my mom; why would I want to take away something that brings her solace? 

I'm usually a near-rude blunthammer when it omes to this. I'm not out to hurt people or rub some salt into their loss, but I don't do dishonesty when it comes to my views on the afterlife, gods and willing self-delusion.

Asmo, I can understand your concerns about dishonesty, but maybe there are a couple distinctions to be made.

1. Is the person making a statement, ie, 'I think dad's in heaven', or are they asking a question, ie 'do you think dad's in heaven'? If it's the latter, I have ZERO problem answering honestly and as gently as I can. If it's the former, though, then they're not ready to ask that question of me, and they're just making a statement. They want someone to listen to them, not question them. Kind of like if a 5 year old said 'I believe in Santa!', you likely wouldn't say 'Oh, don't be silly, Santa doesn't exist.' You'd just nod and smile, or more people probably would. But when that 5 year old turns 7 or 8 and asks you 'does Santa really exist?', then it's time to be upfront and honest.

Which brings me to...

2. I think there's a time and place for being blunt, direct, etc. Immediately after the loss of a loved one isn't the right time to rip the carpet of comfort out from under someone's feet, unless you've got something just as comforting to replace it with, and most of us don't, since grieving people don't see 'cold hard fact' as much comfort, generally. After some time's gone on, however, that may be the time when someone's in a better place emotionally and mentally, and then I think it'd be more appropriate to sit down with them and discuss your views. It just doesn't feel right to me, though, to automatically 'correct' a statement from someone in pain, immediately following a loss. Questions though, yes.

I'll give an example of what I mean. A couple years back, my grandma was in the hospital, and we were preparing ourselves for her possible death (thankfully, she turned around and pulled through, and made it). My mom was horribly upset, and asked me 'if grandma died, do you think she'd go to heaven?' I could have answered with a blunt 'No, we don't go on after this life' and had that be the end of it, but why hurt my mom more? So I just said 'I honestly don't know. The idea of us going on beyond this life doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but grandma's a good, sweet person. IF it's possible we maybe go on to somewhere better, she'd do that. What I know for sure is that if she dies, the pain she's in right now will be gone, and she at least won't have that agony anymore.' and my mom found that comforting and satisfactory, even though I'd admitted my own doubt. I think she just appreciated me giving her some leeway to grab onto some hope. Doing that was fine with me. Just as I don't want anyone shoving something down my throat when I'm grieving, I wouldn't want to do that to anyone else.

[Sandra Craft]

It's really bizarre when believers lie for Jesus.  You would think that would be against their religion.  I guess it goes back to what I said about external controls not being very effective.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there some very specific bits about "bearing false witness" in thr God-Damn Bible?

I think there are loopholes when it's done "for Jesus" or "for god".  The bible itself is full of these little exceptions, and the people who interpret the bible have even more of them. 

[Asmodean]

Asmo, I can understand your concerns about dishonesty, but maybe there are a couple distinctions to be made.

If you think it's worth it, yes. If you don't...

1. Is the person making a statement, ie, 'I think dad's in heaven', or are they asking a question, ie 'do you think dad's in heaven'? If it's the latter, I have ZERO problem answering honestly and as gently as I can.

I make a minor distinction between adults and kids, with kids getting a more full and sometimes more direct answer. (Only answered that question to a kid once, and it went really well)

To adults, I've been known to say "Probably not" or "I hope not... Eternity SUCKS".

If it's the former, though, then they're not ready to ask that question of me, and they're just making a statement.

...And to that, my answer is invariably "Oh, really?" unless no answer is expeted. (The person talking to the air or talking to someone else specific, thus making it that other person's place to comment)

They want someone to listen to them, not question them. Kind of like if a 5 year old said 'I believe in Santa!', you likely wouldn't say 'Oh, don't be silly, Santa doesn't exist.' You'd just nod and smile, or more people probably would. But when that 5 year old turns 7 or 8 and asks you 'does Santa really exist?', then it's time to be upfront and honest.

The Asmo has no neck. He does not nod. (Means I wouldn't nod and smile - I'd just point out the possibility of obtaining evidence of reality and that reality is mom and dad and Uncle Bob)

2. I think there's a time and place for being blunt, direct, etc.

This line right here is the key point of disagreement. My answer to that is "Everywhere. Always"

Immediately after the loss of a loved one isn't the right time to rip the carpet of comfort out from under someone's feet, unless you've got something just as comforting to replace it with, and most of us don't, since grieving people don't see 'cold hard fact' as much comfort, generally.

Well, I'm not sacrificing my integrity for someone's carpet. If they want a hug, they can have it. If they want me to turn hypocrite for a while, no thanks. There is enough hypocrisy in life as it is, and I am disinclined to knowingly add more.

After some time's gone on, however, that may be the time when someone's in a better place emotionally and mentally, and then I think it'd be more appropriate to sit down with them and discuss your views. It just doesn't feel right to me, though, to automatically 'correct' a statement from someone in pain, immediately following a loss. Questions though, yes.

You can also refuse to comment, which can be taken for worse, or you can spew out some politically correct nonsense that really doesn't mean anything at all but sounds pleasant enough. Agreeing with something you know or strongly suspect to be a lie though..? I wouldn't.

Just as I don't want anyone shoving something down my throat when I'm grieving, I wouldn't want to do that to anyone else.

You don't have to shove opinions down people's throats. Simply expressing yours and moving on (As opposed to trying to engage the person in question in a debate on the matter) can hardly count as shoving.

[Sweetdeath]

You are so awesome, Asmo!

[Ali]

Yeah, I get this too.  My mom talks sometimes about her mom (my grandma) watching over her from Heaven.  I would never argue with her about it.  If that gives her some comfort, I'm happy that she has it.  I love my mom; why would I want to take away something that brings her solace? 

I'm usually a near-rude blunthammer when it omes to this. I'm not out to hurt people or rub some salt into their loss, but I don't do dishonesty when it comes to my views on the afterlife, gods and willing self-delusion.

I wouldn't say I'm being dishonest.  She knows where I stand in general (that I'm an atheist) and I don't rush to agree "Oh yes, Grandma is obviously watching from heaven."  I just smile and keep my thoughts to myself.  I just feel like there is a time and place for getting into the whole "Is there an afterlife" debate, and when my mom is missing her mom isn't really the time or place.

[Sandra Craft]

I just feel like there is a time and place for getting into the whole "Is there an afterlife" debate, and when my mom is missing her mom isn't really the time or place.

I'm with you on this one.  Under these circumstances the point is not a philosophical debate, but comfort.  The debate can happen any other time, comfort tends to be time and place specific.

[Sweetdeath]

It's not really a debate, but just "okay..whatever .."
I dunno. I get pretty peeved everytime my grandmother talks about my mom being in heaven, watching over us. It actually really bothers me because I dont believe that, and I just don't want to hear any of it.
I feel like I am speaking to a  child make up stories to "feel better."

[Asmodean]

Precisely. Debate is the operative word here - or rather, the lack thereof. There are times unsuitable for debate - especially when people are emotionally unbalanced, but not expressing an opinion contrary to someone just because they are all teary-eyed over a recent loss..? If it comforts them, it is a fake comfort. Rather than that, I'd try and find something genuine within myself to comfort with OR tell the person that in their current state, I might not be the best person to talk to.

[Sweetdeath]

At the hospital, my mom's care nurse was constantly telling me how impressed she was with.my maturity to handle my mom in ICU, then the hospice. I felt normal, because even though it was emotional, I knew there wasnt much I could do.
My mom lived a pretty okay life, but I knew she loved me and I loved her, and that is ALL the comfort I needed.
Even after she was cremated, I referred to the  ashes as  ashes, not my mom. She's gone, and that's really sad, but i'll be okay. I'm alive, so it is idiotic to dwell on dead things.

I'll be giving my sister the ashes to spread in whatever idiotic morbid spreading of the ashes ritual she wants. I'm done with all that bs.
I also ripped up every "god bless your family" sympathy card I got from my hypocritical distant family.
Sorry i'm realistic. :/

[Asmodean]

You and The Asmo... That would be a couple to behold in dread and wonder 

[Sweetdeath]

You and The Asmo... That would be a couple to behold in dread and wonder 

Oh, that is the first sign of the Rapture. XD
Asmo and I are all four horsemen combined.

[Ali]

And I looked, and behold a pink horse: and his name that sat on her was Asmo, and coffee followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sarcasm, and with the Power Hungry TANK, and with Paint, and with the beasts of the Happy Atheist Forum. - Revelations 6:8