Question for Struggling Atheists

[Traveler]

I really like Liar for Jesus.

LOL, me too. Thanks for the smile, mods!!!

[Ali]

It's really bizarre when believers lie for Jesus.  You would think that would be against their religion.  I guess it goes back to what I said about external controls not being very effective.

[Sweetdeath]

It's really bizarre when believers lie for Jesus.  You would think that would be against their religion.  I guess it goes back to what I said about external controls not being very effective.

Yup yup~

[Genericguy]

Final words for struggling atheist...

I doubt you will ever understand this, but you are the source of the "militant atheism" you are so desperatly trying to eliminate. Deceit, manipulation, intolerance, and anger is only going strengthen my desire to care slightly be a "militant atheist".

Now that you are being up front about your beliefs, we can finally begin to have a civil discussion. That is unless your banished, don't come back, or are simply unable to be civil towards atheists.

Welcome to the forum, liar for Jesus.

[Sandra Craft]

Whereas if the Christian Faith for example  turns out to be true, then,  it would offer something very substantial in this regard , namely,  that this world would not be all there is and that the struggles, suffering, and physical death we experience  wouldnt have the final say .

I believe this is called a Siren Song.  I can't believe in something simply because wouldn't it be nice.  I'm not made that way.

Totally understand this.  I've never felt the slightest desire to meet a god, but I'd give a lot to be able to see my Dad again, I just can't talk myself into believing it's likely no matter how much I want it.  I will say it's a lot easier for me to understand now how some people can talk themselves into it tho.

So I guess I see it as a challenge every day, to just do better than I did yesterday. Love better, help better, make more of a difference, etc. I'm NOT scared of actually dying and not being here to see the world after I'm gone. It was fine before I got here, and assuming I don't royally screw it up   it'll be fine after I go. What I AM scared of is the possibility of not doing something meaningful and helpful with my life while I'm here. If I possibly can, I'd rather leave the world a slightly more interesting, maybe happier if not better place than it was when I got here.

I know it maybe sounds conceited or arrogant, thinking that one life can make enough of an impact in the world, and I truly don't mean to come off that way... but it's honestly not death that scares me.

I don't think it sounds conceited or arrogant at all, it seems to me a very healthy way to look at and deal with something that's disagreeable but inevitable. 

[Amicale]

Whereas if the Christian Faith for example  turns out to be true, then,  it would offer something very substantial in this regard , namely,  that this world would not be all there is and that the struggles, suffering, and physical death we experience  wouldnt have the final say .

I believe this is called a Siren Song.  I can't believe in something simply because wouldn't it be nice.  I'm not made that way.

Totally understand this.  I've never felt the slightest desire to meet a god, but I'd give a lot to be able to see my Dad again, I just can't talk myself into believing it's likely no matter how much I want it.  I will say it's a lot easier for me to understand now how some people can talk themselves into it tho.

I'm with you on this -- I've lost a couple good friends, one when I was in my late teens, another two years ago to cancer, and every single day, I wish I could talk with them again. I miss them, and I love them. I wish with all my heart we could talk and laugh as we used to, I wish they were still here enjoying life, with us. If I couldn't see them again myself, then I wish there WAS some kind of afterlife that took people simply on the basis of them being kind, caring, sweet people, those two would be there. But as much as I wish that for them, wishing doesn't make it so, even though I'd want it for them very much.

I actually think that the hope people place in a heaven or good afterlife of some sort is understandable. The whole God issue aside, when I think about it.... while our loved ones are here on earth, we love them, we care about them, we want the best for them, we want them to be happy and safe. That's a deeply-rooted drive, the drive to protect those we love. An evolutionary, biological drive, even. And when someone we love dies, that drive just can't automatically shut itself off easily -- we've grown so used to caring for those we love, that it almost feels wrong on an entirely emotional level to just stop. So, that's where I think the belief/hope in an afterlife comes from, really -- we continue to want our loved ones to be as protected and loved as they were while alive.

While I don't buy the concept of an afterlife, at least not one that's been described in any major religion so far, I DO understand very well why some folks would buy into that comfort and hope. And honestly, if they need that support, that belief to get them through the day and comfort them while they're grieving, I don't feel right being the one to argue with it, or try to convince them otherwise.

[xSilverPhinx]

Yep.  Look up crime rates by religion, prison population by religion, peace index by religion, and it all paints a pretty compelling argument in the opposite direction - atheists commit LESS crime and are more peaceful than their theist counterparts.

I have a theory about why that is.  Religion, like the law, is an external control system.  With religion, you are good because you fear the consequences of being bad (hell, or whatever.)  Just like with the law, you follow it for fear of going to jail.  Those are external control systems, and they aren't as effective - they tend to collapse under pressure.

Atheists have to develop an internalized control system.  We have to think about what is good, and what is bad, and why.  Most of us rely on logic and empathy to make those decisions, and we internalize them.  Internal control systems are more reliable, because they run deeper.  We know what is good and bad, and why, and we are less likely to throw that knowledge aside under pressure because it becomes a part of our identity.  Being good is not something that I do, it is who I am. 

Another thing is theists have a good scapegoat for their problems. Nothing is their responsibility (not that all theists do this of course). There's always a devil to blame for the bad things you do.

[Sweetdeath]

The devil made me do it b.s usually doesn't hold up in court. :< Still irritating though.

[Genericguy]

So I guess I see it as a challenge every day, to just do better than I did yesterday. Love better, help better, make more of a difference, etc. I'm NOT scared of actually dying and not being here to see the world after I'm gone. It was fine before I got here, and assuming I don't royally screw it up   it'll be fine after I go. What I AM scared of is the possibility of not doing something meaningful and helpful with my life while I'm here. If I possibly can, I'd rather leave the world a slightly more interesting, maybe happier if not better place than it was when I got here.

I know it maybe sounds conceited or arrogant, thinking that one life can make enough of an impact in the world, and I truly don't mean to come off that way... but it's honestly not death that scares me.

This is one of the last reasons I struggled as an atheist. It might sound morbid, but I imagine billions of years in the future, when the sun disintegrates the earth. I imagine the voyager, flying through space, as the last remaining evidence of our existence. Yes I know about voyager 2 and other potential satellites, but this is my happy fun imagination land, leave me alone.    This shouldn't suggest that I believe what we do now is pointless. It just helps me when that desire to live a meaningful and important life gets to stressful.

[xSilverPhinx]

The devil made me do it b.s usually doesn't hold up in court. :< Still irritating though.

It is. I mean grow a spine already and take the blame!

Funnily the who "devil made me do it" is basically an argument against free will. Free choice can be so inconvenient at certain times.

[xSilverPhinx]

So I guess I see it as a challenge every day, to just do better than I did yesterday. Love better, help better, make more of a difference, etc. I'm NOT scared of actually dying and not being here to see the world after I'm gone. It was fine before I got here, and assuming I don't royally screw it up   it'll be fine after I go. What I AM scared of is the possibility of not doing something meaningful and helpful with my life while I'm here. If I possibly can, I'd rather leave the world a slightly more interesting, maybe happier if not better place than it was when I got here.

I know it maybe sounds conceited or arrogant, thinking that one life can make enough of an impact in the world, and I truly don't mean to come off that way... but it's honestly not death that scares me.

This is one of the last reasons I struggled as an atheist. It might sound morbid, but I imagine billions of years in the future, when the sun disintegrates the earth. I imagine the voyager, flying through space, as the last remaining evidence of our existence. Yes I know about voyager 2 and other potential satellites, but this is my happy fun imagination land, leave me alone.    This shouldn't suggest that I believe what we do now is pointless. It just helps me when that desire to live a meaningful and important life gets to stressful.

I get existential angst every now and then too, but like Amicale said, simply wishing something were true doesn't make it any truer. That usually speaks loudest.

Sometimes I do feel as if that were a pity, however.

[Sandra Craft]

Yeah, I would love to be a theist.  It definitely leads to a happier life I think.  If I had a choice, of course I'd chose there to be a God and to live after death. 

Yes, and a drunkard is happier then a sober man.

And let's bear in mind as well that any "X is happier than Y" statement is true only on a personal level and purely speculative otherwise.  For me, atheism was the main happiness making factor in my life -- it simplifed things and made sense.  I love that sort of thing.  The whole god business that I tried so hard to believe was just confusing, bizarre and sometimes depressing (depending on what version of god was being pushed). 

While I don't buy the concept of an afterlife, at least not one that's been described in any major religion so far, I DO understand very well why some folks would buy into that comfort and hope. And honestly, if they need that support, that belief to get them through the day and comfort them while they're grieving, I don't feel right being the one to argue with it, or try to convince them otherwise.

This.  My stepmother knows perfectly well I'm an atheist but still made comments about Dad being in a better place and being able to feel his spirit nearby and knowing I could too.  And I did not contradict her.  If that's what she needed, she was welcome to it without commentary from me.

[Guardian85]

It's really bizarre when believers lie for Jesus.  You would think that would be against their religion.  I guess it goes back to what I said about external controls not being very effective.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there some very specific bits about "bearing false witness" in thr God-Damn Bible?

[The Magic Pudding]

I actually think that the hope people place in a heaven or good afterlife of some sort is understandable. The whole God issue aside, when I think about it.... while our loved ones are here on earth, we love them, we care about them, we want the best for them, we want them to be happy and safe. That's a deeply-rooted drive, the drive to protect those we love.

I was a bit of a huckster as a kid, I knew trickery but it was just kid stuff.  People were being offered what they wanted most and there was no sign anything was actually delivered.  People can be so gullible, if I'd stuck with huckstering I could have had a Lear jet.  Damn you empathy and golden rule for eaking your way into my psyche.

[Sweetdeath]

The devil made me do it b.s usually doesn't hold up in court. :< Still irritating though.

It is. I mean grow a spine already and take the blame!

Funnily the who "devil made me do it" is basically an argument against free will. Free choice can be so inconvenient at certain times.

I feel like adults who believe in religion never grew up and gave up their imaginary friend.