Faith is Greater than Reason

[Egor]

It is one thing to believe that which is right in front of you. I believe the sky is blue. I believe there are alligators in the lake next to my house. I believe gravity exists. There is no choice but to believe these things, and it is a very natural reaction to make reasonable judgments based on such knowledge that is so obvious to me.

If I go swimming in the lake, I might lose a foot. If I drop a water balloon off the Sears Tower in Chicago, it will make a big splash in the end. That's normal human reasoning based on direct observations connected with previous experience or the acquired knowledge of what has happened in the past (e.g., others have been bit by alligators in similar lakes).

But this is not the highest level of human mental functioning anymore than the peristalsis that leads to a good poop is a victory of human achievement. We observe and reason by reflex. Faith on the other hand requires will.

When we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us, we are not only using our rational powers (because we reason that we are not being rational) but we also incorporate our will so that the entire process is more demanding than mere reasoning. It's actually something that is very difficult to do.

If one is sick, and they choose to believe they have been healed even when they are still in pain or the symptoms persist, or if one simply chooses to have confidence in a situation even though there is only a 50/50 chance they will prevail, this takes more mental capability than simply being rational.

And I'm not talking about delusions here. A deluded person is still on the level of reasoning because they are sure their delusion is true. A deluded person may think they are protected against alligators by space aliens. That's not faith. Such a person is using rational thinking when they go swimming in the lake. They're wrong, of course, but they think they're right; so, that's not faith.

Because faith uses rationality as its stepping stone and then goes further through the use of will, it is obviously a greater use of human mental capabilities. And couldn't it be said that the use of will is more godlike than the use of rationality? Thus if there is a God, it may well be the case that we grow closer to Him via the use of faith.

[Tank]

Awwwww you couldn't stay away, you must love us really 

[Buddy]

Welcome back! 

[Stevil]

How's life treating you?
Is your book progressing well?

[DeterminedJuliet]

Awwwww you couldn't stay away, you must love us really 

Group hug!!!

[Traveler]

...When we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us...

Are you seriously suggesting that we should choose to believe anything that's presented to us? Anything? Without any filters? Please say it isn't so. Even if you narrow that down to only your religious leaders, that's pretty darn gullible. Or am I misunderstanding you?

[Ali]

I like that ring you have on your cross; is that barbed wire?

[DeterminedJuliet]

...When we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us...

Are you seriously suggesting that we should choose to believe anything that's presented to us? Anything? Without any filters? Please say it isn't so. Even if you narrow that down to only your religious leaders, that's pretty darn gullible. Or am I misunderstanding you?

*ahem*
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9076.0

[Davin]

*ahem*
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9076.0

To be fair, it is later this year...

[Traveler]

Ah. Ahem. Well then, Egor, how's it shakin'?

[Davin]

...When we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us...

Are you seriously suggesting that we should choose to believe anything that's presented to us? Anything? Without any filters? Please say it isn't so. Even if you narrow that down to only your religious leaders, that's pretty darn gullible. Or am I misunderstanding you?

It's not so much a problem of believing whatever is presented to us, as it is a problem of which thing we initially believe no matter what else is presented. I used to believe that atom bombs were called mushroon bombs because they used mushrooms, I think it was good that I stopped believing that in the face of evidence and reasoning.

[Twentythree]

I can see that. I think it's beyond doubt that it takes a certain level of rational contortionism to believe in something that cannot be proved. Although I'm not sure I would label it greater there is certainly more work involved in exercising your mind in a way that leads it to believe in something that is not there. This is why religions come replete with a myriad of tools that continuously exercise the mind into having a real(ish) experience with something that is not real. There is prayer, temples, churches, sermons, Sunday school, bible study, confession, sacrament and on and on. All of which are ritualistic exercises for the contortion of the mind. If I stretch my hamstrings regularly and with enough consistency then one day I may be able to smooch my own rump. It certainly took more effort to accomplish this than it would to simply walk. But is kissing your own ass greater than simply walking. It's subjective.

[Recusant]

It is one thing to believe that which is right in front of you. I believe the sky is blue. I believe there are alligators in the lake next to my house. I believe gravity exists. There is no choice but to believe these things, and it is a very natural reaction to make reasonable judgments based on such knowledge that is so obvious to me.

If I go swimming in the lake, I might lose a foot. If I drop a water balloon off the Sears Tower in Chicago, it will make a big splash in the end. That's normal human reasoning based on direct observations connected with previous experience or the acquired knowledge of what has happened in the past (e.g., others have been bit by alligators in similar lakes).

A mediocre job of stating the obvious. *Yawn*

But this is not the highest level of human mental functioning anymore than the peristalsis that leads to a good poop is a victory of human achievement. We observe and reason by reflex. Faith on the other hand requires will.

Are you sure that we don't take at least some things on faith by reflex as well? How do you know that faith is always an act of will? Can you support this idea with sound evidence and reasoning?

When we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us, we are not only using our rational powers (because we reason that we are not being rational) but we also incorporate our will so that the entire process is more demanding than mere reasoning. It's actually something that is very difficult to do.

It seems to come easily for many people to reject evidence when it conflicts with their strongly held beliefs. In fact, they seem to do it reflexively, without involving their powers of reason at all. I'm not saying that you don't find it difficult, Egor, but you are making a blanket statement here which is contrary to my experience with people who rely on their faith to guide them through life. Your personal experience of your own inner life is a point of information about you, but I don't see why we should accept its application to people of faith in general unless you somehow support that generalization with evidence and reasoning.

If one is sick, and they choose to believe they have been healed even when they are still in pain or the symptoms persist, or if one simply chooses to have confidence in a situation even though there is only a 50/50 chance they will prevail, this takes more mental capability than simply being rational.

The capability of ignoring facts is not an especially commendable quality, in my opinion.

And I'm not talking about delusions here. A deluded person is still on the level of reasoning because they are sure their delusion is true. A deluded person may think they are protected against alligators by space aliens. That's not faith. Such a person is using rational thinking when they go swimming in the lake. They're wrong, of course, but they think they're right; so, that's not faith.

Maybe you could expand on this point. One could as easily say that a person believes that they're protected by space aliens, despite an apparent lack of tangible evidence which supports the existence of those aliens. Why is this belief in any way inferior to that of a person who believes that they're protected by a guardian angel, despite an apparent lack of tangible evidence which supports the existence of guardian angels? These seem to be equivalent situations to me, and I don't think that you've sufficiently differentiated between what you call "delusion" and what you call "faith."

Because faith uses rationality as its stepping stone and then goes further through the use of will, it is obviously a greater use of human mental capabilities. And couldn't it be said that the use of will is more godlike than the use of rationality? Thus if there is a God, it may well be the case that we grow closer to Him via the use of faith.

How does this jibe with Hebrews 11:1? There is no mention of rationality preceding faith in that passage, nor in similar passages such as Romans 8:24, 2 Corinthians 4:18, and 2 Corinthians 5:7.

[Stevil]

Faith is Greater than reason.

Hmmmm.

5 is greater than 2 because 5 comes after 2
If I look in a dictionary I am sure Reason comes after Faith hence Reason is greater than Faith.

Also
Faith consists of 5 letters where as Reason consists of 6 letters so again Reason is greater than Faith.

I win.

[DeterminedJuliet]

Faith is Greater than reason.

Hmmmm.

5 is greater than 2 because 5 comes after 2
If I look in a dictionary I am sure Reason comes after Faith hence Reason is greater than Faith.

Also
Faith consists of 5 letters where as Reason consists of 6 letters so again Reason is greater than Faith.

I win.

This is rock solid proof if I've ever seen it!