Are you really an atheist?

[Tristan Jay]

I don't want to be an atheist, I don't want there to be no god.
I want to live forever in paradise, in a wonderful state of existence I can't even begin to imagine, I'm not ungrateful by nature, I don't like grovelling but I could learn.
But this is a bias, if you have a bias you should guard against it leading you to a wrong conclusion, it is the sensible thing to do.
This isn't what the faithful would have me do, they want me to try to believe stories written by men.

Pudding, this is fascinating to me, it reminds me of myself quite a bit.  Only in the sense that I wish I could believe that God is good, that God actually cares, and God is fair.  I so deeply wish I could believe these things, and I have to set this sentiment aside in order to deal with life in a pragmatic way.  Different, yet similar.  If only...

[Davin]

Out of interest have you ever witnessed anybody outside of Pentecostalism speaking in tongues? Actually same question goes to anyone with a christian background.

I've been many churches of various denominations yet have never seen anyone speaking in tongues in person.

I speak in tongues quite often, usually to myself.

[squidfetish]

1 What proof do you need?

2 What proof could you have?

3 Are you saying you don't want to be an atheist, but you just can't see any proof.

4 Because you sound pretty proud of the fact that you're an a-the-ist.

1 & 2 - I'll take anything that points to the existence of a deity and falls outside the results of natural cause and effect.  If you want to impress me, an absence of evil would be a good start.

3 - In case you missed it, I said I don't believe in God because there is no evidence to support such a conclusion, same goes for unicorns.  If that doesn't explain it, try asking yourself why you don't believe in Rama, Shiva, Vishnu, Enki, Shamash or the Soul Cake Duck - there's the same amount of evidence to support their existence.  Also factor in the problem that the bible is a book written by human beings to reflect a worldview from a time where they believed that the Earth was flat and there was a glassy dome covering it called a firmament.  Might have implications for the space program, right?  We made it up to control the peasants and service our fragile egos and make us feel special.  The bible was written in the childhood of our species.  Some of us grew up and took responsibility for our own actions and morality.

4 - What does pride have to do with anything?  How does one 'sound proud' in written media on an internet forum without the nuance or inflexion of the spoken word?

[xm1]

Out of interest have you ever witnessed anybody outside of Pentecostalism speaking in tongues? Actually same question goes to anyone with a christian background.

Coming from a midwest baptist background, this was blasphemous.  That is all I know or remember.  Never seen it happen in person.

[Too Few Lions]

How do you know what the truth is? You say faith was an invitation to deny truth, so what is the truth? If God is possible, and if so many people smart and dumb believe in Him, and there are many logical arguments and thought experiments that seem to make sense, and these have been developed over thousands of years, by people like Plato, Thomas Aquinas, Aristotle, Spinoza, Berkeley, Descartes, the influence of Jesus Christ, and on and on, what pray tell then is the truth that you know? That there is no God? That none of these people have convinced you enough?

Plato and Aristotle were pre-Christian, so didn't believe in your god anyway, but these people all lived hundreds or thousands of years ago and knew a fraction of what we know today. If I want to learn something about geography or medicine or astronomy i don't consult books written hundreds of years ago, I consult modern up-to-date books. I don't see why i should treat cosmology any differently.

I would trust the views of modern scientists far more than the ideas of people living in much more ignorant times. In a survey of American scientists in 1998, 93% described themselves as atheists or agnostics, only 7% believed in a personal god.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

Why is it so hard to admit you simply want to be an atheist? I want to be a Christian; I admit it. That's why I am one. Isn't the truth—the truth—that you simply hope there is no God and you can live your life as if there weren't?

I don't think want comes into it, I imagine most of us have rationally assessed the evidence and decided there's no real evidence to support the belief in gods, and certainly not the Christian one.

We don't need to be atheists to live our lives the way we do, we could still believe in god(s) and behave no differently than we do now. If I thought the evidence was there I could happily believe in a god, just not a mythical god like yours.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Problem is, god is not measurable, is not falsifiable and so can not be known with certainty.

He should be measurable, if he is real.

I don't swallow the xtian "he's not measurable" attribution.

Not in the way they claim it anyway. I'd agree a non existent thing is not measurable though.

[The Magic Pudding]

I don't want to be an atheist, I don't want there to be no god.
I want to live forever in paradise, in a wonderful state of existence I can't even begin to imagine, I'm not ungrateful by nature, I don't like grovelling but I could learn.
But this is a bias, if you have a bias you should guard against it leading you to a wrong conclusion, it is the sensible thing to do.
This isn't what the faithful would have me do, they want me to try to believe stories written by men.

Pudding, this is fascinating to me, it reminds me of myself quite a bit.  Only in the sense that I wish I could believe that God is good, that God actually cares, and God is fair.  I so deeply wish I could believe these things, and I have to set this sentiment aside in order to deal with life in a pragmatic way.  Different, yet similar.  If only...

I don't want to believe in what isn't there.
I'm  not prepared to sacrifice reality for a comforting delusion.

[Egor]

There are a bunch of posts I would like to answer since my last post. Is there a multi-quote option? I don't want there to be a string of my responses, or does that not bother anyone (especially moderators?)

[Egor]

1 & 2 - I'll take anything that points to the existence of a deity and falls outside the results of natural cause and effect.  If you want to impress me, an absence of evil would be a good start.

But no supernatural things tell you about are going to impress you, like answered prayers, visions, healings. And actually, I'm not sure how that would convince you there's a God. I don't think it would convince me. Speaking in tongues for me was pretty supernatural, but it never convinced me God exists.

3 - In case you missed it, I said I don't believe in God because there is no evidence to support such a conclusion, same goes for unicorns.  If that doesn't explain it, try asking yourself why you don't believe in Rama, Shiva, Vishnu, Enki, Shamash or the Soul Cake Duck - there's the same amount of evidence to support their existence.

I don't know what the soul cake duck is, but as for other versions of God, I do believe in them. I just don't think they are an adequate revelation of God. You could talk about Vishnu, but that's not the same as Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is a greater revelation. That's why Christianity has been so successful in terms of spreading throughout the world.

 

Also factor in the problem that the bible is a book written by human beings to reflect a worldview from a time where they believed that the Earth was flat and there was a glassy dome covering it called a firmament.  Might have implications for the space program, right?  We made it up to control the peasants and service our fragile egos and make us feel special.  The bible was written in the childhood of our species.  Some of us grew up and took responsibility for our own actions and morality.

Why so paranoid? The Bible is 66 books all written at different times. By the time of the New Testament, Civilization was pretty advanced. Long before that someone built the Great Pyramids and Stonehenge. Besides, there's nothing about our currrent knowledge of technology that does anything to diminish the existence of God, not even evolution. Which is really an argument for God. And it was only relatively recently that we pretty much proved the Big Bang, and discovered some of the strange properties of sub-atomic particles. All of which point to super-natural foundation to the universe.

4 - What does pride have to do with anything?  How does one 'sound proud' in written media on an internet forum without the nuance or inflexion of the spoken word?

I don't know. Word choice, I suppose.

[The Magic Pudding]

There are a bunch of posts I would like to answer since my last post. Is there a multi-quote option? I don't want there to be a string of my responses, or does that not bother anyone (especially moderators?)

You can start by quoting one post then scroll down through the posts and select "insert quote"
The quoted post will be put where you had your cursor in the reply box.

Sometimes copying things to a word document makes things easier than using the small reply window.

[xSilverPhinx]

It's easier IMO if you use Word, otherwise sometimes quotes go within quotes and you get a complete mess...

LOL I think it's amusing. More than slightly odd would be church-goers speaking in tongues IMO.  

When I was 11, I went up to the front of a Pentecostal church one evening in Canada, and they laid hands on me and prayed for me to receive the Holy Spirit. A feeling came over me, and I began to speak in tongues uncontrollably. Even during my twenties when I was pretty much fallen away, I would never dare speak in tongues. There was something too sacred about it, something too strange and frightening.

Today, I don't speak in tongues. I'm not afraid of it, but I choose to practice other spiritual gifts that God has given me. It never proved to me that there was a God. I simply do not understand it. The greatest proof of God for me comes from trusting an authority. It is the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, because I agree with C.S. Lewis when he says either Jesus was evil or insane, or he was truly the Son of God. There is no way Jesus was evil, and if he was insane, given his influence on and reverence from the world, then there is no such thing as sanity.

Some people go crazy with speaking in tongues, and I'm not sure it does much good. St. Paul didn't seem to think it was too important even back in his day. I can see why: It just doesn't seem to accomplish much.

Not trying to preach here; just thought I share my thoughts on speaking in tongues since you brought it up.

I think that neurologically, the whole speaking in tongues things is actually quite interesting. Apparently it has been confirmed that people don't really have control over what comes out of their mouths when they're in that mental state, or trance, as in they don't think ahead on what they're going to invent or plan to speak, but on the other hand, it's just a bunch of phonological meaningless gibberish, without anything that wouldn't be expected.  If there were some sort of underlying grammar or meaningful structure to it, then that would be very interesting. Or sounds that aren't part of the person's native language, perhaps.

There is a fourth option of course, and that is that JC's followers are deluded.

[Stevil]

Jesus Christ is a greater revelation. That's why Christianity has been so successful in terms of spreading throughout the world.

You know this for a fact? That is was the greatness of JC's revelation rather than the murderous crusades or the forced conolisation or the evangalist behaviour of Christians?
Hindu's don't seem to go door knocking or conquering countires or pushing their religion on others.

[xSilverPhinx]

I don't know what the soul cake duck is, but as for other versions of God, I do believe in them. I just don't think they are an adequate revelation of God. You could talk about Vishnu, but that's not the same as Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is a greater revelation. That's why Christianity has been so successful in terms of spreading throughout the world.

Egor...you are a bit naive

Anyways, soon Islam is likely to outgrow christianity, so that must mean that Mohammed was the greater revelation.

[Egor]

Sometimes copying things to a word document makes things easier than using the small reply window.

Yes, thank you. That seems to be the best solution.

I think that neurologically, the whole speaking in tongues things is actually quite interesting. Apparently it has been confirmed that people don't really have control over what comes out of their mouths when they're in that mental state, or trance, as in they don't think ahead on what they're going to invent or plan to speak, but on the other hand, it's just a bunch of phonological meaningless gibberish, without anything that wouldn't be expected.  If there were some sort of underlying grammar or meaningful structure to it, then that would be very interesting. Or sounds that aren't part of the person's native language, perhaps.

There is a fourth option of course, and that is that JC's followers are deluded.

You explained it well until the little quip at the end. I don't really like speaking in tongues. I don't feel right about it. I don't like it, and I can't really say why. I don't want to disparage it, but I don't see any particular glory to God in it. And also, Jesus never did it, nor did his disciples when he walked the earth. So, I don't care to repeat the experience.

Anyways, soon Islam is likely to outgrow christianity, so that must mean that Mohammed was the greater revelation.

To a Muslim perhaps. I guess we'll just have to go to war in the end and let God sort it out.

[Stevil]

Anyways, soon Islam is likely to outgrow christianity, so that must mean that Mohammed was the greater revelation.

To a Muslim perhaps. I guess we'll just have to go to war in the end and let God sort it out.

Or option B would be to respect other people's beliefs, under an inclusive secular law and cohabitate peacefully.
Do you think that would be better than war?