Atheists in the church pews

[Sandra Craft]

I think it a mistake for atheists parents to take their children to church or religious functions that are surrounded by other kids being brainwashed. Explain to a 5 year old all you want the religious craziness involved, but they won't understand. All they will see are other kids having fun.

That's just the thing -- this religious brainwashing that's supposed to be going on is probably also being lost in kids just having fun.

I kept my children out of church for the simple fact that I knew I could not combat religious brainwashing and peer pressure.

And here's another thing -- you combatted the religious brainwashing and peer pressure (I'd simply call it teaching, but whatever) and apparently you did it all on your own.  So did I, and I liked the religious instruction and sermons.  I was probably one of the few kids in my Sunday School class who actually paid attention instead of daydreaming about being outdoors or getting a look up somebody's skirt, and it still came to nothing.  Unless we're dealing with the likes of Westboro Baptist, which is a whole other level of people going wrong, churches just don't seem that dangerous to me.

[Will]

Speaking for myself, I think that's a bit extreme and no more true than saying political parties exist to brainwash or that families exist to brainwash.

That doesn't make it right. Political parties do exist to brainwash, and, like religion, they're largely destructive. They strip away independent thought, attack skepticism of the accepted answers to questions, they steal away your time, they give you false hope, and, yes, they brainwash you.

People like to thing Jesus Camp is some rare exception, that ruining children for the rest of their lives by utilizing a system which is perfectly suited to remove or disable any part of you that might interfere with your being religious is just something the extremists and fundamentalists do, but it's not. It's in every single church. It's in conservative churches and liberal churches. It's in Methodist churches and Lutheran churches. It was in your church. It's still in your church. They use emotional activities to get children excited. They use rhythmic chanting of concepts. They praise the most devout behaviors and either marginalize or even outright punish questioning the programming. They have adults there to model this behavior and these beliefs, too, to make it seem more normal. And these poor kids are exposed to this environment over and over and over and over until they can't help but think that it's normal; that it's normal to have artwork of a man being tortured; that it's normal to get morality from a single book written hundreds and hundreds of years ago; that it's normal to not only believe in things with no evidence, but to devote your life to them. Without the benefit of a church crafted around brainwashing, these concepts and practices could be dismissed out of hand by the vast majority of people. The fact that most of the atheists on this forum used to be in churches attests to that.

If I spent the next 50 years becoming the world's foremost expert on brainwashing and set about creating a perfect system to indoctrinate children, I would end up making a church.

I frankly think you've got the cart before the horse on this one -- organized religion does not create believers, the belief was there before and if organized religion were dismantled the belief would still exist.

The problem is I've seen this argument before. What you've done is you're uncomfortable with the reality that church creates and fosters belief in god, so you've reached a conclusion you're more comfortable with. If I ask you to back this up (spoiler: I'm about to ask you to back this up), you're not going to have your data on hand already. You're going to have to go looking for it. You'll have to scour internet forums and blog posts and old articles to see if someone else has answered this already. And I don't even have to ask you why you're doing this, because you already know: you're not comfortable with what I'm sure you already see as a pretty obvious truth, so you choose an alternate answer you have no reason to believe and you're going to try to desperately back it up with data after having come to a conclusion. Only that's not how this works. You ask a question, you gather as much evidence as you can, then you use that evidence to form a conclusion. Doing it the other way around is just going to lead to confirmation bias.

[Gawen]

Unless we're dealing with the likes of Westboro Baptist, which is a whole other level of people going wrong, churches just don't seem that dangerous to me.

Anything that seeks to squelch critical thinking skills is potentially dangerous, no matter how innocuous it may seem.

[Sandra Craft]

Speaking for myself, I think that's a bit extreme and no more true than saying political parties exist to brainwash or that families exist to brainwash.

That doesn't make it right. Political parties do exist to brainwash, and, like religion, they're largely destructive. They strip away independent thought, attack skepticism of the accepted answers to questions, they steal away your time, they give you false hope, and, yes, they brainwash you.

So, you'd replace political parties with what?  They do serve a function.

I frankly think you've got the cart before the horse on this one -- organized religion does not create believers, the belief was there before and if organized religion were dismantled the belief would still exist.

The problem is I've seen this argument before. What you've done is you're uncomfortable with the reality that church creates and fosters belief in god, so you've reached a conclusion you're more comfortable with. If I ask you to back this up (spoiler: I'm about to ask you to back this up), you're not going to have your data on hand already.

Of course not, I'm not a scientist nor is this a specific area of study of mine.  I still think you're wrong about how I came to my belief about which came first -- that was based on my personal experience, observations of religious friends and family and most of all, research done by scientists for whom the persistence of religious belief is a special area of study (I particularly recommend Why God Won't Go Away: brain science and the biology of belief, by Andrew Newberg and Eugene D'Aquill).  I just don't see how organized religion could have been deliberately created by somebody making up stories about all powerful sky fairies in order to manipulate and control people, rather than a belief in something supernatural and/or sacred being innate and gradually developing into organized religion which some people have used to manipulate and control others.

[Sweetdeath]

No, god and organized religion are definition a huge form of brain washing and controlling people. I pretty much agree with everything Will has to say on the matter.
We all know it's wrong, so we should stop it from ever entering our children's lives.

Westboro baptist church is the most deadly, BUT-- that doesn't mean pretty much every church mindset is already at that. Children are our future, so let's shape them to think for themselves and use reason and logic to live their lives, rather than kneeling/praying to someone that isn't there. We all have security blankets, but it's time for this one to go..

[xSilverPhinx]

I'm gonna go with BooksCatsEtc on this one. People have a psychological predisposition for superstitions, which evolve into elaborate belief systems alongside political agendas. People notice what an excellent tool it is and it all goes downhill from there. Though human nature is responsible for superstitions and magical thinking, the political side to it can't be underestimated...to do so is incredibly naive.

[launion]

i married a devout protestant girl - so i have accompanied her to church quite regularly over the years.. you get to meet a lot of genuine ( if misguided ) people at church . you also learn lots about the church life , church thinking and get to hear some interesting interpretations of biblical texts, particularly when we get a visiting preacher with an agenda to push and lets face it you don't get up at 6.00am on a Sunday and practice a speech for a bunch of strangers unless you got some sort of great commitment to promote.

sometimes i get an attack of the guilts when i feel like a NAZI plant in an English village circa 1937 . but the feeling soon passes

Its not all fun though and a lot of Sundays are as boring as shit on a hard pew  , so i am paying for my education in pain.

But one thing that has become clear is that all the experts and there are many in the christian world have many and varied interpretations of the true biblical record,
for a book that is so definite and precise in its public persona that  can be so different when interpreted by REAL experts is hard to fathom for the unconverted .  The authorship is allegedly infallible  and the message is set in concrete so how come every second christian intellectual cannot read it as it is supposed to be read and accept it as the gospel truth.They can't help themselves they have to get all high and mighty and superior and tell you exactly how it was and what was in the minds of various authors and why they are the  only ones to now the correct interpretation of the facts , all without a shred of evidence other than their own obvious infallibility on things religious


of course this made EXTREMELY difficult by the BIBLE  publishing industry  ( in which i wish i had  a truckload of shares , but don't)  as there is a myriad of different true versions of the bible one can buy 90% of which are made up or translated in the US.


The only thing that remains to be done is for the Christian Lobby to tell us of the great unwashed which is the real correct genuine version of scripture otherwise we will never get it right will we.

You  can make a lot of money on the religious circuit and meet a lot of bored lonely  committee ladies for afternoon tea where you can do pretty well for oneself

so what i am recommending is get along to your local church today and see what you can do for yourself you will be amazed.

[Will]

So, you'd replace political parties with what?  They do serve a function.

They originally served a theoretical function, so people of similar beliefs could pool their efforts to get people of their group elected, but now? No way, Jose. Political parties now exist to squelch any debate or discussion that falls outside of the narrow range of debate between the far right party, the GOP, and the center right party, the Democrats. Despite the fact that the large majority of the country is anti-war, there's no anti-war party. Despite the fact that the large majority of the country wants taxes increased on the very wealthy, there's no party to increase those taxes. Despite the fact that a very large majority of the country wants Wall Street regulated more strongly, there's no party willing to regulate Wall Street. Political parties have killed the debate, and people in political parties are subject to groupthink, having their false beliefs reinforced while having their skepticism of any party line marginalized.

Of course not, I'm not a scientist nor is this a specific area of study of mine.  I still think you're wrong about how I came to my belief about which came first -- that was based on my personal experience, observations of religious friends and family and most of all, research done by scientists for whom the persistence of religious belief is a special area of study (I particularly recommend Why God Won't Go Away: brain science and the biology of belief, by Andrew Newberg and Eugene D'Aquill).  I just don't see how organized religion could have been deliberately created by somebody making up stories about all powerful sky fairies in order to manipulate and control people, rather than a belief in something supernatural and/or sacred being innate and gradually developing into organized religion which some people have used to manipulate and control others.

I never said it was deliberately created to do so, in fact I believe that religions are the way they are more as a result of evolution than anything else. Religions that were ill equipped to brainwash were less suited to survival than those better equipped. Religions that didn't create a dependency died while those that did thrived.

[The Magic Pudding]

The churches don't build the most impressive building in town for no reason.
The priests don't wear those fancy robes and hats for nothing.
My daughter was interested in a career in theatre, not hard to imagine why, churches offer similar attractions with that little bit extra.