Were the teachings of Jesus really that great?

[Crow]

Ignoring the element about whether Jesus was a deity, or if he actually existed at all, or who wrote the bible many people consider the teachings of this man to be the pinnacle of philosophical thought and revolutionary for there time, but are the teachings actually any good in comparison to other philosophies or other religions, and were they really as revolutionary as some like to believe?

I think not and do not see anything special about any of the teachings that appear in the bible, infact I find them to be less thoughtful than previous philosophers and theologians had posed due to the "god says" nature that is presented. I also consider some of the teachings to be awful.

(I thought I would start with one example rather than listing loads so others can add to the topic)

To begin with and probably the most well known philosophy that is attributed to the teachings of Jesus is the golden rule. I think everyone can agree with as positive message but this thought can not be attributed solely to christianity, the earliest recordings of this idea can be found in the Code of Hammurabi (1780 BCE - Ancient Babylon) and more directly in the story of The Eloquent Peasant (2040 - 1650 BCE - Ancient Egypt) which says "Now this is the command: do to the doer to cause that he does to you". It is also found in almost every religion predating christianity and those thereafter. Here are a few examples (I have just chosen one example from each of the main religions but there is more than one for each).
   
Buddhism - "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful."

Hinduism - "One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one's own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Other behaviour is due to selfish desires."

Confucianism - "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself."

Taoism - "The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." (I personally see this to be more like the platinum rule)

Islam - "...and you should forgive And overlook: Do you not like God to forgive you? And Allah is The Merciful Forgiving."

Judaism - You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your kinsfolk. Love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD."

Most of which predate christianity so not particularly revolutionary, and that isn't even touching the greek philosophers or ethics of ancient civilizations and communities. The term we use for this idea "the golden rule" is thought to be attributed to Confucius (according to Rushworth Kidder, its appearance in western thought gives this a very strong case) so if correct its quite strange that it is perceived as being a christian idea. There is also the argument raised against this idea that not everyone wants to be treated the same and has in my opinion been improved upon by Karl Popper which has been given the term the platinum rule - "The golden rule is a good standard which is further improved by doing unto others, wherever reasonable, as they want to be done by".

Is there anything that you consider to be not so great about the teachings of Jesus? Or teachings that you do consider to be great? To the Christians who frequent this board; why do you consider the teachings of Jesus to be superior than that of any other religion or philosophy?

[Too Few Lions]

good post Crow. I'll add one from the daddy of the Greek philosophers;

Plato (through the mouthpiece of Socrates);

'Tell me, then, whether you agree with and assent to my first principle, that it is never right to do wrong or requite wrong with wrong, or to defend ourselves by doing evil in return for evil.'

As a philosophy, I'm pretty neutral to it. It's nice in theory, and might work if everybody behaved that way, but people aren't that nice in practice. Some people would look at it as an opportunity to make you a human carpet and walk all over you.

For me, the important point is that it was nothing new, and was centuries old by the time of Christianity. Personally, I stuggle to find anything particularly new in the teachings ascribed to Jesus, and totally agree with everything you said. The first pagan critics of Christianity said exactly the same thing 1800 years ago. Celsus wrote,

'You Christians have a saying that goes something like this: "Don't resist a man who insults you; even if he strikes you, offer him the other cheek as well". This is nothing new, and it's been better said by others, especially by Plato'

Plotinus similarly wrote, 'All their terminology is piled up to conceal their debt to ancient Greek philosophy.'

Of course pretty much all works even remotely critical of Christianity were banned and burned in the fourth and fifth centuries when the Christians gained power, which is a shame because it would be interesting to know what else Christianity's earliest critics had to say.

[Gawen]

The Golden Rule...

Who says a person wishes to always get treated the way "we/I" wish? Would most people like to get treated like a masochist from a masochist? The Rule only seems laudable because we convey our own individual concepts. Doing unto others has various meanings to other people. The Rule mirrors or sets up selfish motives for a person or a group instead of a system for a diverse society. It is a false sense of morality.

Considering that maybe, treating people the way they would like to get treated works better than the way you would like to be treated.

And I invite you, Crow, to read:
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8400.0

[Crow]

The Golden Rule...

Who says a person wishes to always get treated the way "we/I" wish? Would most people like to get treated like a masochist from a masochist? The Rule only seems laudable because we convey our own individual concepts. Doing unto others has various meanings to other people. The Rule mirrors or sets up selfish motives for a person or a group instead of a system for a diverse society. It is a false sense of morality.

Considering that maybe, treating people the way they would like to get treated works better than the way you would like to be treated.

And I invite you, Crow, to read:
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8400.0

Hi Gawen,

I read your post and really enjoyed it, it was one of the reasons I didn't create a big list of what I think are awful about the teachings as you had highlighted so many and thoroughly expanded upon them far better than I could have. I was attempting to try and get a dialogue running on the area so people could express their opinion on the topic (though seemingly failing to do so).

The teachings of Christianity has affected everyone that lives or has lived in the west through its strong cultural roots so I think it is important to have this discussion, are those teachings on morality and ethics that have been subliminally passed on through various cultural media and the generations any good; if not are there any better philosophies and what are they, if so why are they good. I was tempted to bring in the influence Confucianism has also had on the Wests perception of morality and ethics and why did they become so popular in the 17th - 19th century but I am interested to know your thoughts on this area, as the west was suppose to already have a strong ethical and moral foundation due to Christianity, yet it became hugely popular without any proselytizing. so why if the teachings/actions of Jesus are so great have the christian faith always been willing to adopt other teachings.

I also agree with your comments about the golden rule and was the reason I included Karl Poppers quote towards the end.

[Gawen]

Honestly, Crow...I'm sadly dilinquent in other philosophies. There are just so many of them. And many of those mesh in certain ways to some degree or other. I basically only dabble in Christianity, Judaism and to a very small part, Islam. Because Christianity is dominant where I live and fundamentally locally, I feel my part in life is to tear it down as best I can.

are those teachings on morality and ethics that have been subliminally passed on through various cultural media and the generations any good

Those ethics and morals are no where near subliminally passed down. But to answer your question, there may a nugget or two buried within the entire Biblical moral message. But the moral and ethical message of the new testament, taken as a whole is no good and never was. It is a poison made for those that are superstitious, willing to swallow the religious disease and then the religious cure. The morals within the New Testament, imo, serve to conjure a selfish outlook on life brought on by a fear and reward system. Christianity is despicable, insidious and sinister.

I'm sure someone here might know something of the lesser philosophies, such as Shintoism, Bahai, Jainism, Sikhism and others. I hope so, I wouldn't mind reading the thread.

so why if the teachings/actions of Jesus are so great have the christian faith always been willing to adopt other teachings.

An excellent question. Many answers. No time (at lunch).
Can't wait to read others replies to this.

[Gawen]

Been thinkin'....

Kinda depends on what you mean by philosophies or adopted myths, festivals and the like.

[Sandra Craft]

Is there anything that you consider to be not so great about the teachings of Jesus? Or teachings that you do consider to be great?

I don't really care whether or not a teaching is unique to a particular philosopher or wandering preacher, to me it's just as meaningful to promote a good idea as to originate it.

As for teachings that weren't so great -- I'm not sure if this qualifies as a teaching or a hissy fit, but that business with the fig tree was absurd.  Not that I think anything supernatural happened; I expect nothing happened at all.  I rather think some follower thought this story a good demonstration of godlike abilities, started spreading it around and eventually it got into the canon.  I always thought it put Jesus in a very bad light, but I've clearly been in the minority with this opinion.

As for the good teachings, I've posted elsewhere my admiration for him taking up the cause of treating outsiders as well as one treats insiders ("love your enemy") --a teaching still vastly unpopular in our time, never mind his.  I will admit to liking most of the Sermon on the Mount.  There are some things I question (I've never been that sure about the value of turning the other cheek, and counting thinking about nookie as adultry is a bit much) but on the whole I think it has a lot of good advice.

To begin with and probably the most well known philosophy that is attributed to the teachings of Jesus is the golden rule. I think everyone can agree with as positive message but this thought can not be attributed solely to christianity

Esp. since Jesus never claimed it as original -- the verse where he reminds people to do this also reminds them that it's the law of the prophets.

[Gawen]

I will admit to liking most of the Sermon on the Mount.  There are some things I question (I've never been that sure about the value of turning the other cheek, and counting thinking about nookie as adultry is a bit much) but on the whole I think it has a lot of good advice.

If you liked the sermon on the mount, read this thread and then please post your thoughts here?
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8400.0

Esp. since Jesus never claimed it as original -- the verse where he reminds people to do this also reminds them that it's the law of the prophets.

No, Jesus does not lay claim to the saying, but many Christians believe he's the one that started it.

[bandit4god]

Honestly, Crow...I'm sadly dilinquent in other philosophies. There are just so many of them. And many of those mesh in certain ways to some degree or other. I basically only dabble in Christianity, Judaism and to a very small part, Islam. Because Christianity is dominant where I live and fundamentally locally, I feel my part in life is to tear it down as best I can.

Quite a statement.  What value do you create by doing this?

Ignoring the element about whether Jesus was a deity, or if he actually existed at all, or who wrote the bible many people consider the teachings of this man to be the pinnacle of philosophical thought and revolutionary for there time, but are the teachings actually any good in comparison to other philosophies or other religions, and were they really as revolutionary as some like to believe?

Might be on the fringe of what you'd ascribe to him as "teachings", but His actions themselves are considered by many to be the most instructive teachings of all.  Washing the feet of His followers, always taking time to love the person in front of Him, knowingly walking into Jerusalem to face certain torture and death at the hands of the establishment, and asking God to "forgive them, they know not what they do" in the middle of it.

[Sandra Craft]

Honestly, Crow...I'm sadly dilinquent in other philosophies. There are just so many of them. And many of those mesh in certain ways to some degree or other. I basically only dabble in Christianity, Judaism and to a very small part, Islam. Because Christianity is dominant where I live and fundamentally locally, I feel my part in life is to tear it down as best I can.

Quite a statement.  What value do you create by doing this?

I'm not Gawen, but I will throw in that this is how scientific theories are tested to help determine their validity.  If you do your best to tear something to pieces and can't, that's fair sign you may have something worthwhile on your hands.  On the other hand, maybe Xtianity is just a burr under Gawen's skin and trying to get rid of it helps make the burr less irksome.  

If you liked the sermon on the mount, read this thread and then please post your thoughts here?
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8400.0

I followed that thread without posting because, honestly, it was much too heavy for me.  In any case, my thoughts are that Xtianity itself is neither moral nor immoral but can easily be used either way (the most infamous example of that being slavery, which was both defended and decried by people using Xtian scripture) because the new testament is just as contradictory as the old one. 

[Gawen]

Honestly, Crow...I'm sadly dilinquent in other philosophies. There are just so many of them. And many of those mesh in certain ways to some degree or other. I basically only dabble in Christianity, Judaism and to a very small part, Islam. Because Christianity is dominant where I live and fundamentally locally, I feel my part in life is to tear it down as best I can.

Quite a statement.  What value do you create by doing this?

I have a growing fervor that is the opposite of evangelicals.
We've all heard this saying. It's the first time I've seen it on a portable sign in front of a church. It went up last week. I want to help stop crap like this:

Might be on the fringe of what you'd ascribe to him as "teachings", but His actions themselves are considered by many to be the most instructive teachings of all. Washing the feet of His followers, always taking time to love the person in front of Him, knowingly walking into Jerusalem to face certain torture and death at the hands of the establishment, and asking God to "forgive them, they know not what they do" in the middle of it.

If his words are suspect, his actions should be as well. Causing a ruckus in the temple, withering someone else's fig tree, stealing a colt because he was too lazy to walk, suicide, forsaking his family, pulling men away from their families and livelihood to become beggars, calling a Gentile woman a dog. Indeed, his entire ministry was built on a false assertion; that the end of the world was near. Oh yeah, he was a real nice guy.

[Gawen]

This is God's love? I've already trashed the Sermon on the Mount. Here's a sprinkling from throughout the New Testament:

Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Luke 22:36
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

Matthew 8:21-22
And another of his disciples said unto him, "Suffer me first to go and bury my father." But Jesus said unto him, "Follow me and let the dead bury their dead."

Matthew 10:35-37
"For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law — a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Matthew 12:46-50
While he yet talked to the people, behold his mother and brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, "Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with you." But he answered and said, "Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand towards his disciples, and said, "Behold, my mother and my brethren! For whoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." (So much for honouring his mother)

Matthew 19:29
"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life."

Mark 3:33-35
"Who are my mother and my brothers?" [Jesus] asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

Luke 9:60
"Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

Luke 9:61,62
Still another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good bye to my family." Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."

Luke 12:49-53
"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Luke 14:26 (John 3:15 and 4:19-21)
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be my disciple."
(NOTE: The Greek word "miseo" always means hate; it has no alternative meaning.)

Luke 19:27 (In a parable)
"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me."

John 2:4
Jesus saith unto [his mother], "Woman, what have I to do with thee?..."

John 12:25
"The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

John 15:6
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

1 John 3:15 (Luke 14:26?)
"Anyone who hates his brother (believer in Christ) is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him."

1 John 4:19-21 (Luke 14:26)
"We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, 'I love God,' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother (believer in Christ)."



And that's just from the Gospels.

[Attila]

Quite a statement.  What value do you create by doing this?

I have a growing fervor that is the opposite of evangelicals.
We've all heard this saying. It's the first time I've seen it on a portable sign in front of a church. It went up last week. I want to help stop crap like this:

Here's another one for you Gawen.

[Crow]

Quite a statement.  What value do you create by doing this?

I have a growing fervor that is the opposite of evangelicals.
We've all heard this saying. It's the first time I've seen it on a portable sign in front of a church. It went up last week. I want to help stop crap like this:

Here's another one for you Gawen.

Hmm seems like they didn't read the bible - "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." and "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

[Attila]

Hmm seems like they didn't read the bible - "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." and "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

There are some truly sick, twisted, sadistic motherfuckers out there. Who wrote  that shit? You don't give a reference. Is it from the book of Moron?