Prayer

[Stevil]

I find that Theists are very confused with regards to prayer.

What is it? What is a good prayer, what is a bad one?
Is prayer answered?
Can answered prayer be measured?

As an Atheist I really struggle to know what prayer is, but in exploration conversation with Theists, I feel that they are more confussed than I am on this topic.

They tell me they sometimes pray for the health or wellbeing of others, but when I state that this should give an advantage which could be measurable statistically by finding out probabilities across religious demographics, then they tell me that it is impossible to measure answered prayer.

Some cite that answered prayer is sometimes "No". But then I point out that the sometimes "Yes" would show a statistical advantage.
Some state that prayer is not like a Santa wish list.

I am surprised as to the confusion amongst theists as prayer is seen as a very important daily ritual. So for something so common and so important, why don't they know much about it? Why do they pray for their favourite team to win a game? Why do they pray for sunny wedding days, why do they pray for good health?

It seems to me that the purpose for prayer is to give the person performing the prayer the illusion that they are having a personal relationship with god.
In someways it is like doing visualisation techniques to improve your sporting results. The mind is very powerful and imagination can seem very real.

I wonder if people that write daily "dear diary" notes feel that they have a personal relationship with their diary? .

[Attila]

YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER -- Jim Morrison (The soft parade) 
Ciao,
Attila

[xSilverPhinx]

Personally I think it has all to do with Confirmation bias. People pay extra attention and prefer things that confirm existing beliefs. 

Also, the psychological effect that an answered prayer, such as some are set up to always be, can be very powerful. When a theist tells you that the answer is either, 'yes', 'no', or 'wait', that just about covers every single possibility doesn't it? If you don't get a clear 'yes' or 'no', you just need to keep waiting until eventually you give meaning to some random event and see it as either a 'yes' or 'no'.

[Xjeepguy]

Some call it prayer, I call it schizophrenia.

Either way it's talking to yourself, and thinking your're talking to someone else. 
It is like cold reading your own mind. You ask for something, and if it happens, then God answered your prayer, if nothing happens, it wasn't God's will, and if the opposite happens, God wants it to be that way for a reason. Like one of those "psychics" only in your head instead of on a street corner. Yet another place for the religious to find comfort, because it would be awful hard to believe in something you cant talk to now wouldn't it? I wish I had back all the time I wasted with this useless practice lol.

[OldGit]

The logic of praying with requests baffles me.
If god is omniscient, he already knows the outcome.  Are they asking him to change his mind?  That would be an imperfection.
And god, being telepathic, is already supposed to know their wishes.  Why do they need to ask?
Not to mention the insane situation where they ask god to guide them into praying for the right things.  ???

[Crow]

I honestly have no idea what prayer is about, at school I use to laugh at it because it was so absurd for the same reason Oldgit mentions. The only thing I can think prayer might actually be used for is a way to keep peoples belief strong, as a belief isn't a constant state of mind but rather a thought that comes and goes, maybe prayer is a tool that pushes that thought back into individuals minds reaffirming its position time and time again.

[fester30]

Theists create god and religion based on their own ideas and preferences.  The bible is conflicted on the issue.  Faith of a mustard seed will move mountains, ask and ye shall receive.  Yet even Jesus prays asking for something to be so if it be god's will.  Therefore, instead of having faith that his wishes will be granted, Jesus is asking that god's will be done. 

Considering the fact that so often prayer will seem to go unanswered or the answer will be no, that would conflict with the idea of ask and ye shall receive, or faith of a mustard seed.  Therefore, a theist must rationalize the reasons we don't always get what we want.  They develop rules for prayer, such as it can't be a selfish prayer "God grant me a billion dollars."  They say in some cases we need to meet god half way.  "God grant me a motorcycle if I work really hard and save the money."  We can't pray for a loved one not to die, but we can pray for the strength to handle it.  We can't pray to win a ballgame, but we can pray for the ability to demonstrate the sportsmanship and goodwill that Jesus would have if he was the starting shooting guard for the Chicago Bulls.  Of course, praying for such things as mental strength through hardship or good behavior in public are ultimately praying for things we have control over ourselves. 

And that's pretty much where prayer is.  The only thing god can consistently grant you involves your own actions, behavior, and attitude.  In other words, pray only to god the psychologist.  This isn't new, of course, as the Bible is full of justifications for things.  God destroyed a civilization because they were sinful.  God brought famine to the land due to the sin of the people.  When it would no longer do for god to be mean, man created the devil so that god could be good and kind and all of the world's evil could be attributed to an adversary of god. 

Why do they believe in prayer?   Same reasons they believe in god, really.  Some people find it a bummer that a good person can die at 21 if there's no afterlife.  Gosh, that sucks.  Some people can't imagine us having such self-awareness without some kind of a soul that lives on after we die.  If there is a god, certainly he doesn't just sit there and leave us to our own devices.  Certainly he is involved and will stand up for the good people who keep getting kicked around.  Certainly we can plead with him on our behalf. 

God is like a great game of hide-and-seek.  Scientists keep looking in places where theists say god exists, and don't find him (lightning, sun and moon, etc.)  As we uncover potential hiding places for god and expose nothing, god keeps hiding in more abstract places farther off (creation, dark matter, other dimensions).  Eventually, perhaps, there will no longer be a place for god to hide, and we'll spend more time acting instead of praying.

[Asmodean]

The logic of praying with requests baffles me.
If god is omniscient, he already knows the outcome.

Actually, I was debating this hitchhiker kid on the subject and his opinion of the omniscience of god was slightly different... To boil it down, god doesn't always know everything, but at any given moment, he can obtain whatever knowledge of the moment he needs by an effort of will. Sort of limited, yet still interesting coming from what passes for a Bible Belt theist here. I might post the more interesting points of the exchange sometime later. Was one of the nicer debates, that.

[Stevil]

I've been discussing prayer with a Christian lately.
He states that god answers prayer requests that cross over into the physical world such as a prayer to heal the sick.
But he also goes on to argue that we cannot measure this answered prayer.

How can a person hold both these views? Either this person is not too good with maths or internally he is very confused.

I see no way around this. If god answers prayer requests which affects the physical world then it must be measurable. Statistically it would differ from the randomness of events not prayed for.

If we can't measure the statistical advantage of prayer then answered prayer cannot affect the physical world.
Potentially there is a god and potentially it does answer prayer but this must be limited to the metaphysical realm.
A person can pray for a dying loved one, pray that they are forgiven their sins and let into heaven. They can then believe that god has answered their prayer favorably and let this loved one into heaven. That is fine, if that is what they want to believe, but they should understand that their prayers can only be effective in this way as long as the answered prayer remains unmeasurable and non physical. They will never have any evidence or proof of their prayer being answered but they are free to make up a story in their head that goes along with the desire to have their prayer answered favorably.

However if they over indulge and let their prayers cross into the physical realm then they must know that this type of prayer can statistically be proven to not be effective.

[Attila]

I've been discussing prayer with a Christian lately.
He states that god answers prayer requests that cross over into the physical world such as a prayer to heal the sick.
But he also goes on to argue that we cannot measure this answered prayer.

How can a person hold both these views? Either this person is not too good with maths or internally he is very confused.

I see no way around this. If god answers prayer requests which affects the physical world then it must be measurable. Statistically it would differ from the randomness of events not prayed for.

If we can't measure the statistical advantage of prayer then answered prayer cannot affect the physical world.
Potentially there is a god and potentially it does answer prayer but this must be limited to the metaphysical realm.
A person can pray for a dying loved one, pray that they are forgiven their sins and let into heaven. They can then believe that god has answered their prayer favorably and let this loved one into heaven. That is fine, if that is what they want to believe, but they should understand that their prayers can only be effective in this way as long as the answered prayer remains unmeasurable and non physical. They will never have any evidence or proof of their prayer being answered but they are free to make up a story in their head that goes along with the desire to have their prayer answered favorably.

However if they over indulge and let their prayers cross into the physical realm then they must know that this type of prayer can statistically be proven to not be effective.

I'm not sure if this is relevant but I believe there were a number of studies into the effect of prayer on recovery rates from various illnesses. This may go back a few years. Ben Goldarcre may have mentioned the studies in one of his Bad Science columns. In any event that studies showed that prayer had no impact on recovery when the patient had no knowledge that it was taking place and a slightly negative impact on patients who were aware of someone praying for their recovery.
I can probably track it down if anyone is interested.
ciao,
Attila

[Gawen]

Some good posts in this thread. Attila, there was a British study into prayer 5 or more years ago. I think it's the same study you mention.

There are 3 types of prayer that I know of.
1) Worship prayer - giving thanks.
2) Intercessory prayer - asking for favours to intercede on behalf of oneself or someone else.
3) Total submission prayer - curing diseases, reducing crime, defeating enemies, and winning high school sports through faith that whatever happens only happens because God wills it (Christian Science started this way with Mary Baker Eddy, the founder, saying "God is not influenced by man.").

Stevil: To answer your post in my way - for a supernatural being from the supernatural 'world' to intercede would cause things to happen in the natural world that would not happen naturally. And after all, who wouldn't like their God to be able to contradict the laws of nature whenever it was convenient for them (and the God) to do so? However, there are at least two reasons for believing that beseeching a God to intervene in the natural course of events is absurd.

A) There have been numerous situations where women/girls have been kidnapped and rescued. And there have been numerous times of those situations where those rescued thanked everyone "for all your prayers. They helped us. God was listening". Too many times they make no mention of the police who rescued them, the Amber Alert System or bulletins on radio and TV, the people that phoned in tips or the helicopter pilots that may have spotted the perpetrators vehicle. Of course, they do not blame God for creating the man who stole the car, then abducted and terrorized his victim for hours or putting the victim herself into a situation such as it is.

I wonder, if the abductees took time to reflect, would they conclude that prayer had anything to do with the situation or the cause of the rescue? Of course, it is easy enough to come up with a rationalization that exculpates God from all blame for the ordeal, while still granting that God causes everything for a reason. Maybe God wanted to teach them a lesson or generate some prayer action or maybe even headlines. The ways of the Lord and his faithful are mysterious indeed. What about the thousands of praying parents whose children have been kidnapped, raped and murdered by their abductors? Is God teaching them a lesson, too? Or does God sometimes not listen to prayers?

B) Perhaps more importantly, if Gods could intervene in nature, then the order and lawfulness of the world we experience and the world science attempts to understand would be impossible. If that order and lawfulness were impossible, then so would be the experience and understanding of it. As far as I know, there have been no controlled, double blind studies that irrefutably prove that prayer works. And if prayer worked by influencing God to influence the outcome of an experiment, then no controlled, double-blind study can be sure of the results or their meaning. Any result could be the result of direct influence by God. Basically, the assumption of this type of study is based on is self-defeating. No science at all would be possible if God interfered with the laws of nature.