Christianity - license to make stuff up.

[Stevil]

Is Christianity seen by its followers as a license to make stuff up?

Talking to their followers, although there are some things in common e.g. people's names (Mary, Joseph, Moses, Noah, Jesus, Abraham, David, Goliath etc), it seems the details are incredibly different. Some believe in hell, some do not, some think priests can absolve us of sins, some do not. Some think Mary was free of all sin (including original sin) some do not. Some feel it is OK for people to be gay, some do not. But most claim to know god. Some know god so much that they like to tell others stories about god, what god is like, what heaven is like, who goes to heaven, who prospers in heaven etc.

Are Christians taught that Christianity means coming up with your own beliefs in god? Imagining what ever you consider to be a perfect utopia and ascribing that to your vision of god.

It doesn't seem to me that Christians are discouraging such behaviour. They aren't teaching each other the correct interpretation. Well, at least the Catholic church is. They say that they are divinely guided and that they have knowledge of many of the missing details of the bible. So with this church people are giving up their own thoughts and ideas on what god is and are trusting their church and believing that their church is infallible. In this way they are trying to know god for what the church tells them god is, warts and all, not taking the liberty to reinvent god into something more agreeable with their own personal values.

But let's face it, most Christians have a personal god, that only the individual knows and believes in. It is perfect and uncannily most agreeable to the individual.

So again, back to my original question:
Are Christians at liberty to make stuff up, to create detailed stories about their personal vision of what god is, what heaven is, what morality is?

[Tank]

The sheer number of sects is good evidence that the Bible is easy to cherry pick whatever one feels best suits one personally.

If accurate, and I'm no expert on these things, this diagramme appears to be appropriate at this point.





The image comes from The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"

[Attila]

Hi Stevil,
Doesn't the old saw "Women and Men created god in their own image" explain it all?
ciao,
Attila

[Stevil]

Hi Stevil,
Doesn't the old saw "Women and Men created god in their own image" explain it all?
ciao,
Attila

We see that, but why don't they?

They seem to think that it is OK to simply describe a personal god that fits well with their own personal wishes and desires.
If god were actually perceived by theists to be real then they wouldn't cherry pick. There would be things that they would admit that they don't understand and potentially don't even agree with but they would go along with it because it is god's desire and they would fear punishment of hell.
But this isn't the case, they tend to be happy with their view of god and it exactly agrees with them because that is the way they have shaped god.

If people truly believed in god, the god of the bible, then wouldn't they be scared to do any work on the sabbath? The bible says "Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death". Now there is some debate as to whether the sabbath is Saturday or Sunday. Well if it weren't absolutely clear which day, wouldn't people who truly believed in god and believed this was one of the 10 most important things (commandments) of god. Shouldn't true believers be scared to work on either of these two days? This of course would mean no doctors, ambulance drivers, no firemen, no police officers, no nurses or care workers, no aids, no physio therapists, no professional sports, no television, etc.

But by and large people don't really believe in god, even if they say they do. They like the idea of god, and promote it furiously, but by and large personally they don't really believe in god. They just self invent an image of a loving god and use it as positive support of their own ideals. They are not worried that they will go to hell or be punished for not obeying a rule that they don't agree with. They are lead to believe that with Christianity they can simply choose what to believe and what not to believe. They can interprete and reinterprete anything in the bible to make it fit their own personal opinion on life and being a good person.

[OldGit]

Some believe in hell, some do not, some think priests can absolve us of sins, some do not.

Here's the nub.  If christianity has a single core, it is surely that JC died to redeem us all from ... well, that varies.  Something nasty, anyway. 

But how do we claim redemption?  Catholics and Orthodox accept 'justification by works', i.e. doing good things.  Although strictly, a Catholic believes you can only be saved via the church (extra ecclesiam nulla salus).  That was the core point of the Reformation: protestants say you don't need a church or a priest, and that works don't count, only faith.  Then, how do you get faith?  Some say you can achieve it by yourself, others that you can only be given it by god's grace.  That last theory gets you into a mess because it looks like god himself is damning those to whom he doesn't give faith.  From there you get to predestination à la Augustine and Calvin - it is laid down in advance who gets saved and who doesn't, else how is god omniscient?

The whole thing is a total mess.  As I've often said to christians, if I were going to waste my life on religion, I should at least demand to know in advance the precise rules for getting to heaven.

[Stevil]

The sheer number of sects is good evidence that the Bible is easy to cherry pick whatever one feels best suits one personally.

If accurate, and I'm no expert on these things, this diagramme appears to be appropriate at this point.





The image comes from The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"

Although people belonging to these major branches have some common themes with regards to their chosen branch, within the branch, they all have a different god, a different set of morals, a different detailed description. It really does seem that they are taught some things which their church deem as important but then they are taught that they can pick and choose the other (not so important) details. Well, people being people, they extrapolate that even into the realm of the important details, they get to pick and choose, how great is that?!

[Recusant]

But by and large people don't really believe in god, even if they say they do. They like the idea of god, and promote it furiously, but by and large personally they don't really believe in god.

I'm not going to get into most of what you wrote about Christians, suffice it to say that many of them would reply that your picture of them is inaccurate. If any of the Christian members here want to go into more detail, I'm sure they'll pipe up. The two sentences quoted above though... 

...Sound like the exact reverse of the ludicrous canard I've heard from overzealous Christians too many times to count: "Those atheists really do believe in God; they just want to make their own rules, so they act like He doesn't exist. But deep in their hearts they know that He does."

I find it laughable and irksome at the same time, and I imagine that a Christian reading the two quoted sentences probably would have a similar reaction.

[Stevil]

I find it laughable and irksome at the same time, and I imagine that a Christian reading the two quoted sentences probably would have a similar reaction.

Yeah but,

How could they possibly truly believe in god if they pick and choose? If they don't look to find out about god, but instead make stuff up.
Honestly, how can you say that there is an authority that must be obeyed or else you get eternal torture, and then they go off and instead of devote their lives to being very careful and diligent in finding out exactly what the rules are that this authority demand are to be obeyed.

They aren't taking it seriously enough. Most Christians by and large, quickly come to an understanding based on what makes them feel good. They don't seem to be driven by fear to get their facts absolutely right.

Have you seen Christians living in constant fear due to the ambiguity of the rules of what is right and wrong and knowing that eternal damnation awaits those that get it wrong. To me it certainly does not seem that people take this very seriously at all. It seem that they don't actually believe god exists, it doesn't seem that the believe they could go to hell to face eternal torture.

[xSilverPhinx]

I think that of the portion of Christians who really are worried that their god would send them to hell for getting some of their facts wrong probably do stress over it, but like people in general, nobody wants to turn something that is a comfort into something that is very stressful. People seek out things and interpretations that validate their idea of what their god is, and this in turn leads to a discussion on whether that sort of personal god is objectively pointless, which I think is the logical conclusion.  

[Stevil]

Take a look at real world scenarios. People that live in oppressive societies, like China in the Mao era. People were truly scared to upset their ruling authority, they made sure they understood the rules, they did not doubt the consequences.

If Christians believed god was as real as Mao, how could they take such a relaxed position and simply live their lives based on what they think or feel their god want's. Certainly they should be driven to know and not simply settle for thinking or feeling.

Ecurb Noselrub on some threads here has made comments to suggest that he sometimes does not go along with the mainstream Christian stance. I think this would be and immensely scary and incredibly brave thing to do if he truly believed that god exists and is capable of judging him and sending him to hell. He of course has stated that he doesn't believe in hell. But most Christians do. God won't not send you to hell just because you choose not to believe in hell. If you believe in god then you ought to be scared out of your wits.

[Recusant]

Yeah but,

How could they possibly truly believe in god if they pick and choose? If they don't look to find out about god, but instead make stuff up.

I know some Christians pretty well, and many of them actually do "Bible study" and spend time to learn more about their god, and to learn more about what he supposedly said. Sure there are plenty that don't bother with that, but those are the ones who leave it to their pastor to tell them what's up. He does the heavy lifting for them, and if they have any questions, they go bother him about it. Then there are "nominal" Christians, who seem to think that as long as they pay lip service and actually do believe in their god, they'll be all right in the end. I don't deny that there is a percentage that are simply what we might call "Pascal's Wager Christians" who don't know if a god exists, but are hedging their bets. I'm not going to guess what that percentage is, but I'm pretty sure that they are a definite minority.

Honestly, how can you say that there is an authority that must be obeyed or else you get eternal torture, and then they go off and instead of devote their lives to being very careful and diligent in finding out exactly what the rules are that this authority demand are to be obeyed.

They aren't taking it seriously enough. Most Christians by and large, quickly come to an understanding based on what makes them feel good. They don't seem to be driven by fear to get their facts absolutely right.

They're human beings. They have busy lives; like I said, many of them leave the heavy lifting to their pastor. They pay him to help make sure that they're on the right path, and since they belong to the "right" church, their god (who after all is supposedly very loving and forgiving) will see when they die that they were good people at heart, and will overlook all of their failings. Plus, that Jew died for their sins, so that they might live forever, remember?

Have you seen Christians living in constant fear due to the ambiguity of the rules of what is right and wrong and knowing that eternal damnation awaits those that get it wrong. To me it certainly does not seem that people take this very seriously at all. It seem that they don't actually believe god exists, it doesn't seem that the believe they could go to hell to face eternal torture.

I think you underestimate the inner turmoil about this very sort of thing that many Christians feel. Maybe for most of their lives, they kind of just hum along, compartmentalizing their fears, but once they get toward the end, they often are fighting damn hard to avoid death for just a few more days. I think that they're scared of what might happen when they have to finally face their god and deal with his all-seeing reckoning of their lives.

[Stevil]

They're human beings. They have busy lives;

But life goes on for 80 years if you are lucky.
Eternity goes on for much longer than that.

If your eternity is determined by only a measly 80 years, wouldn't you devote all that time to understanding and obeying the rules of the authority?
If this is what you believed then this is what you would do. By saying, "forgive me, I am only human", this is a cop out, it is an admission that you do not take god seriously enough. When it comes down to it, and you put your money where your mouth is, it seems obvious to me that you don't really believe in god.

In some ways most of us say one thing and do another. I am certainly guilty of this. We try and convince ourselves of our convictions but it is only when we are tested that we truly find out the truth about ourselves.
For a Christian with a belief in an all knowing, all seeing god who will judge them when they enter the afterlife, this life is their test and to me they don't seem to be taking it very seriously.

[Too Few Lions]

The sheer number of sects is good evidence that the Bible is easy to cherry pick whatever one feels best suits one personally.

If accurate, and I'm no expert on these things, this diagramme appears to be appropriate at this point.



The image comes from The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"

I think that picture's actually rather inaccurate as it ignores early Christianity and seems to suggest that it was one homogenous religion until the fifth century. If we're talking about varied belief within Christianity, early Christianity was much more varied in belief than modern Christianity. You had people like Marcion who taught that Jesus wasn't the son of the Jewish god, but he came in direct opposition to Yahweh, you had some Gnostic Christians who believed that it wasn't Jesus who was crucified, but Simon Cyrene, you had Chrisians who didn't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, but just a wise philosopher or righteous rabbi. You had Ebionites, docetists, Arians etc etc. You had Christians who rejected the four gospels that came to be in the NT and held incredibly different ideas about their god and Jesus from any Christian today. Unfortunately these these other Christianities were declared 'heretical' by the Imperial Church in the 4th-5th centuries and were persecuted out of existence by what was to become the Catholic / Orthodox churches.  To have them missing from this diagram is a bit like seeing a tree diagram of life on Earth that omits the dinosaurs!

As much as there is a lot variation in what Christains believe today, they can all trace their beliefs back to the religion that Constantine began to mould in the fourth century. Without Constantine there would be no Christianity as it is today. I think the fact that Christians do (and always have) believed such widly different things shows what the religion is, a man made creation based on some writings 2-3000 years old (including the OT).

If their god existed he could just come to Earth and tell them what he wants them to believe. Personally, I find it weird that someone would believe something becuse they thought it was what someone else wanted them to believe, rather than because they just believe it. Although maybe Christians do actually mainly just believe what they want to, and then try to find scripture to back it up, hence so many different opinions...

[OldGit]

^ You left out the Lactoportarians, who believe that Mary was lying and it was really the milkman.  It's the only branch based entirely on reason.

[Recusant]

...If this is what you believed then this is what you would do. By saying, "forgive me, I am only human", this is a cop out, it is an admission that you do not take god seriously enough. When it comes down to it, and you put your money where your mouth is, it seems obvious to me that you don't really believe in god.

In some ways most of us say one thing and do another. I am certainly guilty of this. We try and convince ourselves of our convictions but it is only when we are tested that we truly find out the truth about ourselves.
For a Christian with a belief in an all knowing, all seeing god who will judge them when they enter the afterlife, this life is their test and to me they don't seem to be taking it very seriously.

OK, apparently you have higher standards for how Christians should live their lives than most of them do for themselves. I don't see that as evidence that they actually don't believe in their god, but if you do, then go with it.