A Christian Military?

[ryanvc76]

I was in the US Army for just under twelve years.  I left active duty early last year and continued to work for the Army as a civilian as an official mail manager.  One of the units I support received a large number of boxes recently from "ChristianBooks.com".  This got me fired up again on a topic that has disturbed me for well over a decade now.

If church and state are separate, why in the world is there so much religious crap provided throughout the military on the governments dime?  The government pays all of these chaplains, has chapels on every post, and even shells out money on religious propaganda material.  How is this even legal?
In military ceremonies, and I don't mean funerals, they actually ask all of the soldiers to bow their heads and do a prayer.  I always refused to bow my head and kind of hoped they would confront me about it - they never did.

Several years ago, as a young Sergeant, I, along with all of the other Noncommissioned Officers in my unit, was ordered to report to the dining facility for breakfast one day.  We were to attend a Leadership Development course for the duration of the day; we'd start with breakfast then off to the classroom.  Well, as we all work our way through the chow line and find our seats, it becomes more and more clear that this was a "prayer breakfast".  I had always avoided the dining facility when I knew a prayer breakfast would take place and became quite agitated when I learned that I had been forced into one.

Another nonbeliever and I decided that we would skip breakfast and started to get up.  We were ordered to remain seated and not given a choice otherwise.  I was furious and I could feel the blood pumping in my face â€" I couldn’t believe they were going to make us sit there and be raped in the ears.  So, knowing that I couldn’t win the battle â€" outnumbered and outranked â€" I decided to eat my food and try to ignore the fairytale session.  The fellow Atheist and I started to eat as the rest bowed their heads and listened to the prayer being given.  I decided it would be a good time to add some salt to my hash browns â€" “Hey Sgt C., can you pass me the salt?”  He was sitting a few seats away and I didn’t feel the need to whisper.  He found great pleasure in this and kindly passed the salt.  Then, he asked, also not whispering, “Would you like some pepper too?”   Wow, lots of dirty looks, especially from the Command Sergeant Major, but surprisingly, we didn’t get in any trouble for our poorly timed dialogue.

Anyways, with this all said, can somebody please, please tell me why it is not illegal to intertwine religion so deeply throughout the military?  How is it that Chaplains get paid more than I do to spread myths?   How is it that government funds are used to finance this all?  Am I wrong to be angered and confused by this blatant combination of church and state?

[donkeyhoty]

No, you're not wrong to be angered by this.

I sometimes read the military.com forums, for intellectual curiosity, and it's somewhat disturbing how religious the members of the military are.  Although it's probably not anymore than the general public, it certainly seems that way.  Plus, the obedience to a "higher" authority is a tenet of both the military and religion, plus team sports, which also have a seeming larger percentage of devoutly religious persons.


Also, did you hear/read about the guy in Iraq that tried to have a meeting for atheists/agnostics and was accosted by a higher ranking(not superior) chaplain?

It was in the news a while ago.  I know he sued for something, probably harrassment, but I haven't heard much about it since.

[ryanvc76]

The military is just that, a slice of the general public.  Unfortunately, when being sent around the world to strange new places away from freinds and family, the weak ones turn to a church for the instant social network it provides.

I did hear about the Soldier you mentioned above.  The FFRF had mentioned this on one of their recent "Freethought Radio" shows.  It's not too surprising.

The weak minded ones that blindly follow religion are often the same people that are afraid of leaving military service.  The military provides EVERYTHING - job, food, money, school, housing, etc. - people have a hard time cutting the cord on all of that.  However, as the smart ones jump ship, who do you suppose is left behind to move up in rank and power?

Keep in mind though, there are lots of Atheist in the military as well.

Okay... I better shutup and get to work!  LOL

[MikeyV]

IMNSHO, Chaplains shouldn't hold rank. I have enough of a fight on my hands just keeping my command in check without fighting off the holy officer corps too.

[tomday]

When I first joined the Royal Air Force, way back in the 60's and had to provide details for my personnel records, I filled in the 'Religion' question as "None". I was reprimanded for doing it and informed that "heathens were not fit to serve".  I was told that my religion was to be entered as "C of E" (Church of England) together with all others who did not have firm religious views.  A few years later when attending a commissioning selection board I was again asked about my religious observance and gave an honest answer only to be informed that all serving officers would have to be able to provide morale guidance to their men, therefore without a religion I would not be considered fit to serve as a commissioned officer.  
Here in the UK, it is my personal experience that the vast majority of the population who do not attend church (except for weddings, christenings and funerals) will all show their religion as 'C of E' in questionnaires therefore statistic give a very false view of religious observance.  The only people that I personally know who attend a Christian church regularly are catholics who have been indoctrinated, hounded and coerced by merciless priests throughout their lives and, I suppose, can't help themselves.

[ryanvc76]

That reminds me...   When I first entered the US Army, I had to give my religion for it to be printed on my "dog tags".  I was forced to put "non-denominational", which still implies Christian belief.  It wasn't until the Wiccans made a big deal of the issue that things were changed and I was finally able to get it fixed to read "Atheist".

[donkeyhoty]

Well, at least the Wiccans are good for something.

[Justice]

Yes. But it bothers me that these issues do not get addressed until a competing religion complains. If a Jew or Muslim complains about school prayer, for example, it is taken seriously because we are supposed to respect religion. However, if an atheist proffers the same grievance, we are looked at very negatively - as if we are just creating trouble for no reason.

[rlrose328]

Yes. But it bothers me that these issues do not get addressed until a competing religion complains. If a Jew or Muslim complains about school prayer, for example, it is taken seriously because we are supposed to respect religion. However, if an atheist proffers the same grievance, we are looked at very negatively - as if we are just creating trouble for no reason.

You make an excellent point here.  If we complain, we are being "negative" about another's beliefs rather than just wanting a positive atmosphere in which EVERYONE is comfortable.  I face that at my son's school (a Charter school that rents classrooms in a church)... when I complain about the HUGE cross in the lunchroom or the big bulletin boards with bible quotes in the hallways and on the wall under the big cross, I'm told, "Well, maybe you should choose another school."  Why?  Why do *I* have to leave because I want a neutral atmosphere for my son's PUBLIC SCHOOL education?

They don't see that we want equality for ALL belief systems and that is only going to happen if the Christians (and soon, the Muslims) back off and settle down.

[SteveS]

I'm told, "Well, maybe you should choose another school." Why? Why do *I* have to leave because I want a neutral atmosphere for my son's PUBLIC SCHOOL education?

Good point - a fair and honest question.  Since it is a public school nobody should suggest leaving because the school is too religious --- its not supposed to be religious at all.

If you want religion and the school doesn't provide, people have to seek private education.  That's because this isn't (supposed to be) a religious government.

I wonder how the Xtian's would feel if the school had Muslim material all over the place, and someone said "if you don't like it you should leave"?  Can't they see this is the exact same issue?  This is why the most "fair" approach is a secular government?

[rlrose328]

I wonder how the Xtian's would feel if the school had Muslim material all over the place, and someone said "if you don't like it you should leave"?  Can't they see this is the exact same issue?  This is why the most "fair" approach is a secular government?

They would sue.  And they'd get a great attorney who would make sure the Muslim materials were removed ASAP.  But a jewish family and I have been asking for that cross and the bulletin board verses to be removed for over TWO YEARS now and each time, we get:  "We're working on it with the church."

The administration of the school is AFRAID of pissing off the church and losing our space, so they either have never asked or the pastor said it can't be done and they're pacifying us with "working on it."  WE'RE being difficult and negative... Christians would be seen as being "concerned."

You are absolutely right... if they want a religious education for their children, they should go to a private school.  But as I learned at that Moms in Touch prayer group, they DO see this as their own little Christian school and god supports them in that.   :bang:

So... my options are to put him in the regular public school where crosses and bible verses aren't tolerated... but he'd be in a class with 44 kids (the average size of the third grade there, ours cap at 22 and we have waiting lists) OR homeschool, where my son and I would come to blows within minutes each day.  I'm patient, but not THAT patient.  

He's getting a good education at MITCH and he doesn't care about the cross and the verses.  He says, "That's just Christian stuff mom... it doesn't matter to me."  The problem is mine... and I hate letting them "get away" with it.

[SteveS]

god supports them in that

Funny thing about that --- god always seems to support each religious person who believes god supports them, not matter what the issue or the faith.  Presumably god supports both the Jews and the Muslims in the middle-East, right?

Anyway - sounds like your son is just fine.  I know its annoying letting them "get away with it", but it never hurts to keep perspective on the truly important things.

Anybody hear of any private secular schools?  Setup as escapes from religious education?  Probably not too likely.....

[rlrose328]

Davidson Academy in Nevada (I think) is for highly gifted kids.  And if I could move there and could afford the tuition, I'd be right on it.  LOL!

[SteveS]

Yeah - I was just curious.  Seems like somewhere, somebody would build a private school that promotes secular thinking - no religion allowed!  This would be just as legal as building a school that requires religious participation (at least as I see it).

[ryanvc76]

Seems like somewhere, somebody would build a private school that promotes secular thinking - no religion allowed!

Secular thinking - no religion allowed...  I'll be damned if that isn't what public schools are SUPPOSED to be.  I realize that private schools offer advantages that aren't available at the overcrowded public schools.  Nonetheless, public means it is for the people as a whole and by no means should they be allowed to ASSUME that everyone is of the xtian faith.  

Are there any plans to ever build a new building for the school.  You know, separate the church and state.