Religious tolerance

[Siz]

"Raging against the machine isn't going to kill it. Let's work on liberal fairness before trying to topple the regime".

This is the way I feel about my interactions with the religious. I am a tolerant man, but will not allow my personal freedoms to be eroded by someone else's beliefs. I should be expected to display the same courtesy, and I do.

Venting in a forum isn't going to help change the world. Shouting Atheism from the tallest Southern Baptist spire isn't going to help. Telling a religious man his beliefs are baloney isn't going to persuade him he's wrong any more than he can you (as we've seen courtesy of SuperfluousEd). The only fair way is to live-and-let-live. And while the oppressive religious don't want to allow this to happen, we must be bigger than them. Ironically, be more like Jesus than the religious. Provocative, I know, but we ALL have a lot to learn from the ACTIONS of a character like this.

In words from the British film 'Trainspotting' (slightly altered for my own means) : "I don't hate the religious, they're just wankers".

Yes, I know some Christians are hypocritical, bigoted, pious, zealots - we all know that and don't need to reiterate this point. But we are not and that IS the point. Let's not stoop to their level.

I invite your comments on religious tolerance and how best we might coexist with the zealot - cos he's not going away! Richard Dawkins talks of an endemic human urge to be theistic in philosophy. If he is right then it's not something we're likely to purge in a hurry. I do believe that (assuming the human race survives long enough) we will mature enough to assuage religion in time. We will never eradicate it completely.

To clarify my position and eliminate the possibility of clouding the issue here I must highlight the issue of liberal fairness relative to politics. Any politic based on religious belief is UNFAIR and I will not be tolerant on this issue. Religion has NO PLACE in politics.

So, let them indoctrinate their children. It's their prerogative. Let them pray for our heathen souls, and ...er...thanks. Rant if you will, I know it feels good. And this is a good place for that. But let's fight for all of our rights to freedom of belief , not with an eye for an eye, but with the demeanour befitting a more enlightened community. Live and let live.

[DeterminedJuliet]

In real life my general policy for people who have views I don't agree with, if they make it an issue, is avoidance. If people don't bring up religion, then I don't, but if someone was all like "oh Jesus is the bee's knees, etc, etc", all of the time, I'd probably do my best to be around them as little as possible.

If someone's really racist, avoidance. Really sexist, avoidance. Really aggressive and confrontational, avoidance. If they make it an issue and they get in my face about something, I'll defend my position, but most of the time I'd rather deny the fight by a hasty retreat, because, I agree, most of the time you can't change someone's mind by going after them aggressively.

This policy has worked out pretty well for me. I have very few people in my life that are what I would consider a negative influence.  

Now, somewhere like here, where I can't really avoid the person, I have a hard time not poking at them a little bit. Because, really, it's an atheist forum. I wouldn't go to a Christian forum and be like "Oh hai, have you realized that you are wrong, yet?" and not expect some backlash.

[xSilverPhinx]

I think that if you can't destroy them and don't want to join them, then you can at least work towards changing them, at least where you feel it's necessary.

There actually isn't a fine line that separates what they believe in personally and the actions those beliefs cause that in turn affect others and society very negatively. Sheep are never good, unless insofar as the shepard is concerned...

I also have a growing distaste for the Catholic church and its minions. 

Such things are easier to see when outside the religious box. I don't really expect some religious people to understand.

[Siz]

I honestly don't care a jot about how another person thinks. We are all our own judge. I don't expect them to understand my position any more than I do theirs. And I'm not even bothered about trying to change them - it's their loss (and prerogative) if they want to squander sentience. What's most important is that MY journey isn't hampered by their bigotry. If they cannot learn to leave ME be, then, yes, they must be destroyed. My aim is to get them to understand at least that.

[xSilverPhinx]

I honestly don't care a jot about how another person thinks. We are all our own judge. I don't expect them to understand my position any more than I do theirs. And I'm not even bothered about trying to change them - it's their loss (and prerogative) if they want to squander sentience. What's most important is that MY journey isn't hampered by their bigotry. If they cannot learn to leave ME be, then, yes, they must be destroyed. My aim is to get them to understand at least that.

That's a good way of putting it. Some people deserve certain things more than others.

[Sweetdeath]

Welp- my issue with religion is that they tend to have a big influence on higher up gov people.  Who then will make LAWS to impose human rights.


Yes, i'd love to ignore them and let them be, but as a homosexual, I really can't. 

The fact that homosexuality is illegal in some parts of the world, punishable by DEATH, thanks to religion is a big, big eye opener that this way of thinking has to  be obliterated.

[Siz]

Welp- my issue with religion is that they tend to have a big influence on higher up gov people.  Who then will make LAWS to impose human rights.


Yes, i'd love to ignore them and let them be, but as a homosexual, I really can't. 

The fact that homosexuality is illegal in some parts of the world, punishable by DEATH, thanks to religion is a big, big eye opener that this way of thinking has to  be obliterated.

For once, Sweet, I totally agree with you. Although 'that' way of thinking isn't a problem in itself. It's when that crosses over into obstructive action that is injurious and unacceptable. The law is on your side - for what thats worth (US and most European Law). And we, and millions of other believers in freedom of expression are on your side. Perhaps not sufficiently vociferously.

Can you explain to me what actual barriers you encounter from the bigots?

[Sweetdeath]

Well, just people making such a big deal. Like being heterosexual is "normal" but homosexual isn't.

It isnt a freedom of expression. Its what I am.  I was born this way, and I never felt out of place til prettymuch every religious person I ran into wanted to pray for my soul or reccomend a cure at church.

I just wanna live my life like any other human being, you know? I work, pay my taxes, etc. I am attracted to women,but just because I am a woman too, my love isnt normal?   Society puts labels on things  that dont need them. There isnt anything magical or really different about gay people.   No one asks a heterosexual to come out the closet.  It gets really old, really fast, and I anxious for us to evolve past such unecessary wastes of times.

Marriage is marriage.  Love is love,so I wish we could stop putting a wall between gay and straight.

Ugh, sorry xD its 6am!!
To flatly answer you, scissorlegs, I have encountered horrible people saying I will burn in hell for my "sins" and my love is false, or being gay is a choice...and that really sucks.x__x  stop it, horrible people.

[Siz]

I'm sorry for you Sweet. That's nasty people!

If we leave religion out of the equation do you think these people would act any differently? I don't think so. As we have discussed before, these people cherry-pick their doctrine to suit their own conservative sensibilities. The bible becomes a licence to act abysmally. Bigotry sanctioned by God. Perpetrated in the name of God, but masterminded from within. Every religious community does this - from the moderate, gently liberal parts of the English church to fundamentalist Islamists.

In comparatively closed communities in the US, generation after generation has been producing automata. It is their belief (typically American if I may be so bold) that they are the pinnacle of human endeavour - galvanized by a diet of TV which tells them so. What reason would they have to change? The problem perpetuates - unquestioning and arrogant.

So religion is not per se the issue here. Religion is just a tool - like any other (a knife can be used to stab or to feed).  It is, more basically, an issue of ignorance. The cure, of course, is education. In this case, not necessarily in science or facts (though that would help the symptom), but in the ability to THINK. And I suppose that is less simple to instill - certainly not from within closed minded homes.

How can we teach people to think then? I don't know. But more fundamental and pressing (and hugely more complex) is how can we better teach people to WANT to teach people to think?

[Stevil]

or being gay is a choice...and that really sucks.x__x  stop it, horrible people.

Hey Sweetdeath,

Does it matter if it is a choice or not? I picked my wife through choice. I don't believe in fate, don't believe that there is only one soul mate meant for me. I choose to get to know her, I choose to allow myself to cross certain friend/more than friends barriers with her. I chose to marry her.

Whether you choose to be with girls or you were born with a natural attraction for girls, what does it matter? It's your life, don't let anyone else put conditions or barriers onto your life, especially when it comes to finding love.

If they feel that they have the right to decide who you should be allowed to fall in love with and who you can't, then that is their problem not yours. Just tell them to fuck off and mind their own business!

[Tank]

^^^ What Stevil said. There probably is a reason why there is a spread of sexual attractions but as long as a person is comfortable with the orientation they have who's to complain about it.

[Siz]

or being gay is a choice...and that really sucks.x__x  stop it, horrible people.

If they feel that they have the right to decide who you should be allowed to fall in love with and who you can't, then that is their problem not yours. Just tell them to fuck off and mind their own business!

Well, I think they're making it her problem. They've crossed the line into 'obstruction' territory and must be dealt with. You can't just ignore that kind of treatment.

I love the LaVeyan rule No.11:

"When walking in open territory, bother noone. If someone bothers you ask them to stop. If they do not stop, destroy them."

[fester30]

In real life my general policy for people who have views I don't agree with, if they make it an issue, is avoidance. If people don't bring up religion, then I don't, but if someone was all like "oh Jesus is the bee's knees, etc, etc", all of the time, I'd probably do my best to be around them as little as possible.

If someone's really racist, avoidance. Really sexist, avoidance. Really aggressive and confrontational, avoidance. If they make it an issue and they get in my face about something, I'll defend my position, but most of the time I'd rather deny the fight by a hasty retreat, because, I agree, most of the time you can't change someone's mind by going after them aggressively.

This policy has worked out pretty well for me. I have very few people in my life that are what I would consider a negative influence.  

Now, somewhere like here, where I can't really avoid the person, I have a hard time not poking at them a little bit. Because, really, it's an atheist forum. I wouldn't go to a Christian forum and be like "Oh hai, have you realized that you are wrong, yet?" and not expect some backlash.

Yeah... I'm a lover, not a fighter.  (And I'm kind of a weenie so I tend to back down from crazy, ignorant people who wear camouflage when they aren't trying to hide from anything).

[xSilverPhinx]

I love the LaVeyan rule No.11:

"When walking in open territory, bother noone. If someone bothers you ask them to stop. If they do not stop, destroy them."

I like that 

[Sweetdeath]

Thanks Stevil and Tank   <3