Is Christianity moral or immoral?

[Cforcerunner]

I would like to know your views. Is it moral and/or ethical overall, or not? Are there parts that are moral or not? I have mine (Christianity is immoral), but will wait for others to chime in before I lay my reasons out.

The response to your survey will not be of too much of a surprise (Despite the very informative post Tank provided which most effectively phrases the proposition your implying). In my experience, atheists have been overwhelmingly antagonistic/selectively critical towards mainstream religion (i.e. Christianity). It won't be surprising to see many here interpret the moral precepts of Christianity in a less than favorable light.

[Asmodean]

It won't be surprising to see many here interpret the moral precepts of Christianity in a less than favorable light.

Perhaps. But the same would more than likely apply to Judaism, Islam or any other out-dated, hypocritical moral code people may for some reason want to follow as well.

[Davin]

One of my biggest problems with Jesus, is doubting Thomas:
John 22:29 "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

Jesus didn't bless, Thomas for wanting to see evidence, he blessed those that merely believe without seeing evidence. The moral is that blind followers are preferable to Jesus over skeptics. I think that is one of the worst morals that one can teach a person.

[Gawen]

Just so you all know, I'm no where near done with this. I've been researching quite a bit off and on over the years and have 30 new pages in word I need to trim down before I start back up here...*chucklin* I plan to discuss the differences between the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew, 5-7) to the 10C's and directly...attack....the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:1-12) in an attempt to show the immoral and unethical "advice" given by Jesus. All Biblical references given through KJV. I'll be using the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, gThomas, gLuke, gMatt, gMark, Gospel of Peter...and whatever else that fits.

[Tank]

^^^ Tease 

[Stevil]

Just so you all know, I'm no where near done with this. I've been researching quite a bit off and on over the years and have 30 new pages in word I need to trim down before I start back up here...*chucklin* I plan to discuss the differences between the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew, 5-7) to the 10C's and directly...attack....the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:1-12) in an attempt to show the immoral and unethical "advice" given by Jesus. All Biblical references given through KJV. I'll be using the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, gThomas, gLuke, gMatt, gMark, Gospel of Peter...and whatever else that fits.

I'm amazed at your persistence, determination and the effort you put into this.

What is your purpose of all this effort, to prove to yourself that God and Jesus couldn't possibly be true? To prove to the whole world and hence rid earth of the disease of belief?

What drives you man?

[Tank]

Just so you all know, I'm no where near done with this. I've been researching quite a bit off and on over the years and have 30 new pages in word I need to trim down before I start back up here...*chucklin* I plan to discuss the differences between the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew, 5-7) to the 10C's and directly...attack....the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:1-12) in an attempt to show the immoral and unethical "advice" given by Jesus. All Biblical references given through KJV. I'll be using the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, gThomas, gLuke, gMatt, gMark, Gospel of Peter...and whatever else that fits.

I'm amazed at your persistence, determination and the effort you put into this.

What is your purpose of all this effort, to prove to yourself that God and Jesus couldn't possibly be true? To prove to the whole world and hence rid earth of the disease of belief?

What drives you man?

Duracell.

[Too Few Lions]

a Duracell powered ventriloquist's dummy is more than a match for any false god or prophet!

[Gawen]

Man....that's a really good question...what drive's me? Lots of little things, I suppose. I'll try to list them...randomly.

I live in Texas.

That should suffice...*laffin*

No, really, I do live in Tx.

I was brought up in Presbyterian Christianity, all the while never believing it in the first place. But as I got older, I started asking questions of myself, chiefly, why do I not believe while everyone around me does? That started it.

So why all the effort? I had to know why I don't believe. And the more I dug, the deeper it got.
Duracell examples:
Politics,
Discussion board lurkers (those people [Whatever their beliefs] who, IMO, are on the boards seeking something; answers, points of view without posting, etc.),
Users/posters - to start a discussion, thought experiments, hash stuff out with those who will (because I don't have anyone to talk this stuff over where I live),
To show my knowledge, to be shown wrong or right,
*Stevil - to show those that believe the atrocities, absurdities, contradictions, questionable Biblical guidelines and precepts, fatal Biblical flaws, etc...and those that do not believe but do not know about it in the depth that I (and others) do.

I can logically prove the Christian God cannot logically exist; I, along with many others on this board and other boards have done so countless times. What I cannot prove is that a man named Jesus was the son of man/god actually existed and all what the Bible and Christians claims about him. What I CAN show is the folly of that belief I marked in red above. Hitchen's is right, IMO - religion, especially the Christian religion, is a poison of all humankind. I don't claim to have an antidote....

...but I'm frackin working on it...*chucklin*

If there is anything I've ever said to a person or a person that has read what I wrote and it made them stop long enough to think critically (regardless of the outcome), then I'm happy. Many of us have planted the 'doubt' seed here and elsewhere. All I'm trying to do is spread around the fertilizer.

*edited to add*...And another thing. There are many atheists out there that just simply do not believe and never take the time to wonder why. Good on them. So, mayhaps some may think it's an obsession with me...mayhaps pedantic. Likewise, there are a great many more Christians out there that believe without understanding, never read the Bible and are oh so willing to be spoonfed salvation. A couple may read this thread and label me an anti-Christ...a demon lodged inside me...and believe me, I've been called worse.

But I think I do this more for my own understanding and for those that have taken off their God-goggles long enough to question.

[Gawen]

a Duracell powered ventriloquist's dummy is more than a match for any false god or prophet!

That made me laugh....thanks.

[Stevil]

But I think I do this more for my own understanding ...

Doesn't there come a point where you come to the conclusion that no matter how hard you look, there isn't any evidence one way or the other?
That proving to others is somewhat pointless because their stance is not based on proof and you have no evidence to base your stance either.

When does it get to the point that you say to yourself, I'm a strong 6 on Dawkin's scale, unless some new information comes to humanity, I am confident in my 6-ness and happy to move on?

[Gawen]

But I think I do this more for my own understanding ...

Doesn't there come a point where you come to the conclusion that no matter how hard you look, there isn't any evidence one way or the other?

No....the thirst for knowledge and the willingness to share what knowledge I have drives me in this along with my acceptance to be shown wrong in my thinking and values and my acceptance to change those thoughts and values by those more knowledgeable than me.

That proving to others is somewhat pointless because their stance is not based on proof and you have no evidence to base your stance either.

Well...not quite. To put it simply, their evidence is based on faith which is based on a book that was based, for the most part on oral tradition. My evidence, such as it is, is not to so much disprove their evidence, but to make them think critically. What is more believable? Miracles don't happen or the laws of nature were different or subverted in the first century?

When does it get to the point that you say to yourself, I'm a strong 6 on Dawkin's scale, unless some new information comes to humanity, I am confident in my 6-ness and happy to move on?

That can only be decided by the person going through it. The same sort of question can be asked of Pentecostal Preachers. Where is the point that you say to yourself, I'm a strong 10 on God's scale, that no new information will come to humanity, I am confident in my 10-ness, and really happy to get off the stage?

It's like a hobby to me...a brain exercising hobby and I like to debate. When I'm not flying my RC planes, riding my motorcycle or shooting, I do this. However, planes, motorcycle riding and shooting are expensive these days. Researching Christianity is not. Alas, there is indeed a point and it comes more frequently in the form of burnout. IIRC, I spent nearly four months away from the boards and 'Jesus' earlier this year. It does take a toll when I've been saying the same stuff to thousands of people, of all beliefs systems (or none) over the last 10 years.

But then....*chucklin*...I'll read something, or think of something...and it begins anew. My only hope, my only desire in this "hobby" is that I think that somewhere, some person will read my crap and say "Yeah, that makes sense"...or..."He's got a point there, I think I'll research it further".

Who knows, maybe one day I'll write a book....*laffin*

[Stevil]

You have great potential to write a great book.

Much more substance and thought than the simple God delusion.

I would say for you it could be a very emotionally and intellectually rewarding activity. Put this passion to good use.
It would help if you try to target it at a specific audience and specific goal. e.g. is it an introduction to critical thinking of religions such as the god delusion is and hence it will have popular appeal but will be in competition to books already published, or is it to focus on expanding the critical thinking of a theist. I feel your knowledge is your key strength. If the theist is your audience then you need to treat them and their current position with respect and dignity, As soon as you alienate them or have them on the back foot you will meet their automatic resistance. The greatest challenge in a lot of peoples lives is change.

It would also help if you built up your profile first. Everyone can write a book, why should someone pick up a book written by you?

But I would say, don't just think about writing a book. Make a decision, set a goal and timeframe and then you will make all the things that need to happen to achieve this.

Anyway, just my 2 cents, you are older, and wiser than me.

[Too Few Lions]

It's like a hobby to me...a brain exercising hobby and I like to debate. When I'm not flying my RC planes, riding my motorcycle or shooting, I do this. However, planes, motorcycle riding and shooting are expensive these days. Researching Christianity is not. Alas, there is indeed a point and it comes more frequently in the form of burnout. IIRC, I spent nearly four months away from the boards and 'Jesus' earlier this year. It does take a toll when I've been saying the same stuff to thousands of people, of all beliefs systems (or none) over the last 10 years.

But then....*chucklin*...I'll read something, or think of something...and it begins anew. My only hope, my only desire in this "hobby" is that I think that somewhere, some person will read my crap and say "Yeah, that makes sense"...or..."He's got a point there, I think I'll research it further".

Who knows, maybe one day I'll write a book....*laffin*

I'm with Stevil, you should definitely give it a go collecting your thoughts together into a book. It can't hurt. Plus you can publish for free these days through amazon or lulu. That and/or put some of your ideas into a webpage too, it's good to get as many people as possible to question their faith.

reading and researching early Christianity / ancient religion is definitely a cheapish hobby these days with the wonders of the internet but it can still be a mighty time consuming and addictive thing!

[Gawen]

You have great potential to write a great book.

Much more substance and thought than the simple God delusion.

I would say for you it could be a very emotionally and intellectually rewarding activity. Put this passion to good use.
It would help if you try to target it at a specific audience and specific goal. e.g. is it an introduction to critical thinking of religions such as the god delusion is and hence it will have popular appeal but will be in competition to books already published, or is it to focus on expanding the critical thinking of a theist. I feel your knowledge is your key strength. If the theist is your audience then you need to treat them and their current position with respect and dignity, As soon as you alienate them or have them on the back foot you will meet their automatic resistance. The greatest challenge in a lot of peoples lives is change.

It would also help if you built up your profile first. Everyone can write a book, why should someone pick up a book written by you?

But I would say, don't just think about writing a book. Make a decision, set a goal and timeframe and then you will make all the things that need to happen to achieve this.

Anyway, just my 2 cents, you are older, and wiser than me.

My head doth puff!

You are not the only one that has suggested that I write a book. Writing is not my forte. It takes an immense amount of time to get all my thoughts together enough to jot them down. My biggest problem is keeping everything flowing and not jumping all around. And if I'm so old and wise as you say....


*grinnin*


...why is 'spellcheck' and a Thesaurus by best friend?

Thank you for the glowing accolade and the shove to write a book. I only need figure a way to lay it out. The God Delusion is a great book. It laid down his thoughts in a way that most people could understand and should have prompted those that did not understand to seek further knowledge. But if Dawkins had expanded in depth as I do, the book would have been tens of volumes and undoubtedly become as boring as watching grass grow.

Perhaps a series of...ummmm.....handbooks? 30 pages or less? Hell....I don't know...