Is Christianity moral or immoral?

[Will]

I see your points, Will. And I agree with them, well, most of them. And I would agree that Judaism is not the same as it was when the Torah was written around 250BCE. But it's not the point I am making or trying to make and I seem to be at a loss at this time as to how to make it clear, which is what I thought I did in my big post. What you seem to be saying is the Torah is not immoral because it was written down; only an amoral book and the person who reads it and agrees with it becomes immoral.

Actually, I'll do you one better: oral traditions, generally, are amoral as well. If I'm retelling you the story of Gilgamesh or Jesus or even Star Wars, I'm simply carrying on a narrative. While there may be edicts and dogma in that narrative, and in the case of oral religious teachings they're undoubtedly in there, most of the time it's simply the oral version of the Bible, simply the sharing of information.

Immorality, in my mind, is about interpersonal conduct. An immoral act is about direct, detrimental consequences to a word or deed. It requires both a source and a destination upon which to cause effect.

Let's say we're sitting around the camp fire 1900 years ago in what is now Israel or Palestine and I'm regaling you with the story of the Israelite attack on Jabesh-gilead from the 21st chapter of Judges. As you may know, this is a particularly fucked up story in which the 12,000 Israelite soldiers were ordered to slaughter every man and child, and every woman who was not a virgin. Furthermore, they were ordered to rape every virgin. Because there weren't enough virgins to go around, they were told to go rape the women of Shiloh who were having a celebration of some kind. This is a terrible story, is it not? It states in no uncertain terms that there are circumstances in which "God" says it's okay to murder and rape. It's disgusting. However, is my storytelling causing direct detrimental consequences? Is the telling itself immoral? Or is it how this is interpreted and then carried out?

One last thing. The title of the thread is Is Christianity moral or immoral? It is not, Is the Bible moral or immoral?  Christianity is not just the Bible. Please take that into consideration.

I think that's really my point. Christianity is the belief system rooted directly in Biblical scriptures. In and of itself, it is either an abstract, the belief system, or tangible in the form of the Bible. Neither of these things, imho, can be immoral or moral. It's not until they're in the hands of human being who can act on and communicate with one another than immorality and morality can enter the picture. Perhaps we have differing concepts on what constitutes morality?

[SuperiorEd]

I would like to know your views. Is it moral and/or ethical overall, or not? Are there parts that are moral or not? I have mine (Christianity is immoral), but will wait for others to chime in before I lay my reasons out.

For me, its not a moral question.  I do not see judgment as God acting in time.  Judgment occurs when we make a choice to engage the universe with consciousness.  We act and the universe reacts.  If we create a debt, the universe requires the payment.  If we smoke, suffering follows.  If we created a surplus, the universe gives us the rewards.  If you suffer an education, you get a degree.  The degree can be used to suffer work for a paycheck.  It keeps going and going.  So, Christianity is mathematics.  No algebra needed.

Consider this example:  In mathematics, if you owe three people $10, then you are negative $30 (3 X -10 = $-30). If the lenders then say, "We forgive you for this debt because we love you," then you are free from that debt by another negative.  You have just had three subtractions of -10, making you three positives of $10 (-3 X -$10). Your debt is -30 + 30 = Zero.  Jesus died a horrible death to pay our debt, walking us back to a positive value.

What is Christianity?  Jesus paid debt by dying on a cross.  This was a horrible negative.  We are sinners and this is a negative to the world.  We see this every day in the news.  We take more than we give to the universe.  When we multiply Jesus negative and our negative, the debt is transferred to him and ours is forgiven.  He walks our debt back to zero by the negative of the cross.  Multiply two negatives and debt is gone.

[DeterminedJuliet]

I would like to know your views. Is it moral and/or ethical overall, or not? Are there parts that are moral or not? I have mine (Christianity is immoral), but will wait for others to chime in before I lay my reasons out.

For me, its not a moral question.  I do not see judgment as God acting in time.  Judgment occurs when we make a choice to engage the universe with consciousness.  We act and the universe reacts.  If we create a debt, the universe requires the payment.  If we smoke, suffering follows.  If we created a surplus, the universe gives us the rewards.  If you suffer an education, you get a degree.  The degree can be used to suffer work for a paycheck.  It keeps going and going.  So, Christianity is mathematics.  No algebra needed.

Consider this example:  In mathematics, if you owe three people $10, then you are negative $30 (3 X -10 = $-30). If the lenders then say, "We forgive you for this debt because we love you," then you are free from that debt by another negative.  You have just had three subtractions of -10, making you three positives of $10 (-3 X -$10). Your debt is -30 + 30 = Zero.  Jesus died a horrible death to pay our debt, walking us back to a positive value.

What is Christianity?  Jesus paid debt by dying on a cross.  This was a horrible negative.  We are sinners and this is a negative to the world.  We see this every day in the news.  We take more than we give to the universe.  When we multiply Jesus negative and our negative, the debt is transferred to him and ours is forgiven.  He walks our debt back to zero by the negative of the cross.  Multiply two negatives and debt is gone.

Except the debt isn't gone, the world still sucks and life isn't fair. The idea that the universe always "balances itself" (either through God, Math, or physics) is a pretty big assumption, especially when it comes to people. There are plenty of good people who will have horrible lives and horrible people who will have good lives. Or did all of the people starving to death in Africa do something to deserve their lot in life?

[SuperiorEd]

I would like to know your views. Is it moral and/or ethical overall, or not? Are there parts that are moral or not? I have mine (Christianity is immoral), but will wait for others to chime in before I lay my reasons out.

Except the debt isn't gone, the world still sucks and life isn't fair. The idea that the universe always "balances itself" (either through God, Math, or physics) is a pretty big assumption, especially when it comes to people. There are plenty of good people who will have horrible lives and horrible people who will have good lives. Or did all of the people starving to death in Africa do something to deserve their lot in life?

True.  The debt is transferred to Him.  He has stated what will be done with this debt.  It is then given back to those who have taken from life and remain in a lost state.  The Bible states that they have received their reward in this life.  In other words, if the grace is not received, then the debt is given back to those who owned it legally.  This seems harsh, yet we are offered a free gift.  When the Bible says, "you must be born again.", this is not an option.  You will be born again.  The question is where.  Grace is always here waiting for you again when you return.  It will become a hell from the looks of how man is treating the garden.  Weed will be all that is left here.  I'll take the new earth personally.  Have you looked out at the sky lately?  They are out there waiting for our day of freedom. 

[DeterminedJuliet]

True.  The debt is transferred to Him.  He has stated what will be done with this debt.  It is then given back to those who have taken from life and remain in a lost state.  The Bible states that they have received their reward in this life.  In other words, if the grace is not received, then the debt is given back to those who owned it legally.  This seems harsh, yet we are offered a free gift.  When the Bible says, "you must be born again.", this is not an option.  You will be born again.  The question is where.  Grace is always here waiting for you again when you return.  It will become a hell from the looks of how man is treating the garden.  Weed will be all that is left here.  I'll take the new earth personally.  Have you looked out at the sky lately?  They are out there waiting for our day of freedom.  

Oh, so it's some kind of special "Jesus math." Well, that wasn't really what you were saying originally.
Beyond that, it might help you here if you write less cryptically. I'm sure the flowery-biblical prose is enjoyable to you, but it doesn't help you get your point across effectively. It just makes you look as though you are just trying to bamboozle everyone with your words.

Also, I'm sure you've read the rules, but I'll just remind you that there is a "no preaching rule". It doesn't bother me, per se, because I've been there and done that when I was a Christian, but all of the "you will be born again" and "earth will become hell" talk will likely get you into trouble. Instead of viewing us as objects of saving, view us as already lost and move past that part. It'll probably be less frustrating for you.

[xSilverPhinx]

True.  The debt is transferred to Him.  He has stated what will be done with this debt.  It is then given back to those who have taken from life and remain in a lost state.  The Bible states that they have received their reward in this life.  In other words, if the grace is not received, then the debt is given back to those who owned it legally.  This seems harsh, yet we are offered a free gift.  When the Bible says, "you must be born again.", this is not an option.  You will be born again.  The question is where.  Grace is always here waiting for you again when you return.  It will become a hell from the looks of how man is treating the garden.  Weed will be all that is left here.  I'll take the new earth personally.  Have you looked out at the sky lately?  They are out there waiting for our day of freedom. 

Oh, so it's some kind of special "Jesus math." Well, that wasn't really what you were saying originally.
Beyond that, it might help you here if you write less cryptically. I'm sure the flowery-biblical prose is enjoyable to you, but it doesn't help you get your point across effectively. It just makes you look as though you are just trying to bamboozle everyone with your words.

Also, I'm sure you've read the rules, but I'll just remind you that there is a "no preaching rule". It doesn't bother me, per se, because I've been there and done that when I was a Christian, but all of the "you will be born again" and "earth will become hell" talk will likely get you into trouble. Instead of viewing us as objects of saving, view us as already lost and move past that part. It'll probably be less frustrating for you.

Agreed. There's all that fine print and conditions for the transferral of debt that I just think is ridiculous. Believe that Jesus is the son of god and that belief in that is necessary for one's salvation and all that.

[The Magic Pudding]

Agreed. There's all that fine print and conditions for the transferral of debt that I just think is ridiculous. Believe that Jesus is the son of god and that belief in that is necessary for one's salvation and all that.

Yes I agree with this.
All this talk of + and - , it's so ancient.
Every transactions has a debit and credit, get this negative = bad stuff out of your head, it'll only confuse, it's just so, so so.... single entry!

Lets have a look at the Jeebus general journal (that's all they had back then) for nail up day.
I fear I've undervalued the human debt, I try to limit myself to 800 pixels width.

[Xjeepguy]

I seriously just spit coffee on my laptop.....

[Sweetdeath]

XD I just woke up, puddin. *chokes on juice*

[The Magic Pudding]

XD I just woke up, puddin. *chokes on juice*

Ah, spilt drinks and choking on juice, the sweetest of compliments.
It's a shame our clocks don't match, I need sleep.
Oh and it's probably better to stay away from  the "Evolution the myth" forum.
I've had to bite off my two index fingers to stay out of trouble, bye.

[Sweetdeath]

Meep, thanks for the heads up, puddin'. 

[Siz]

I don't subscribe to morality. There is no such thing.

I would however suggest that Christianity inspires it's followers to be more likely to behave detrimental to society in some ways. e.g. Sexist, biast against homosexuals, agressive towards Atheists and non Christians.

That's rediculous. If it looks, tastes and smells like a banana, it's a banana.

You've just defined your own morality by telling us what you believe is wrong. What else are morals if not that?

[Gawen]

Not to dis or diminish the entirety of your post, but the following...

Perhaps we have differing concepts on what constitutes morality?

No...I do not think this is the problem. As this is discussed, the finer points begin to become revealed. Actually, I think we agree with each other more than either of us think we do; we just came at it from different POV's.

[Gawen]

I don't know....I mean....Ed nailed it. Christianity has nothing to do with morality, but mathematics.

Evidence of God = 0
Evidence of a man that was God,
Evidence that God has a Ghost,
Evidence of a man named Jesus that was magic filled,
born of a virgin,
killed,
resurrected,
went to heaven,
took away sin,
Heaven,
Hell,
Sin,
God is the universe,
God has lactating nipples,

all comes to a grand total of...

ummm...I'm not really good at math but my best guess...

*gettin' out calculator*

ahhhh.....my best guess would be...*pushin' buttons*

Zero?

I hope your day job is not in banking....

[Gawen]

That was really good Puddin'. I'm copying that.