Your kids in a godless world

[Tom62]

I think it is time that the vicious circle of religious indoctrination gets broken. Informing your kids about religion is one thing, brainwashing your kids into one particular religion however is immoral.

[Sweetdeath]

^this.
I have a lot of hope that the new tech savvy, college generation won't put their kids through the religion dellussion.

Also, religious schools are being forced to closed due to  lack of funds. Hah-hah! 

[Tank]

i don't think it's "sad" that your kids are growing up religious. i think that it might actually work out better that way, because then they can decide for themselves whether or not they believe in a higher deity and all that.
i think that you're doing well for a situation like yours, i don't know how i would personally handle it.
giving them both opinions i think will help them in the long run to decide for themselves what to believe in.
good luck!

Sorry, but I can't possibly see the benefit of being brought up to believe falsehoods just so one can unlearn them. That's not the same as learning about fictional characters like Peter Pan where the child is told Peter is fictional, that's about stretching one's imagination and learning what fiction can be used for. But to be brought up and told, by people in authority, that a lie is true does nothing but screw up kids.

Some of the de-conversion stories I have read are horrendous and the victims of theism would have had a very different life if they had not been deliberately mislead in their youth.

[Siz]

i don't think it's "sad" that your kids are growing up religious. i think that it might actually work out better that way, because then they can decide for themselves whether or not they believe in a higher deity and all that.
i think that you're doing well for a situation like yours, i don't know how i would personally handle it.
giving them both opinions i think will help them in the long run to decide for themselves what to believe in.
good luck!

Sorry, but I can't possibly see the benefit of being brought up to believe falsehoods just so one can unlearn them. That's not the same as learning about fictional characters like Peter Pan where the child is told Peter is fictional, that's about stretching one's imagination and learning what fiction can be used for. But to be brought up and told, by people in authority, that a lie is true does nothing but screw up kids.

Some of the de-conversion stories I have read are horrendous and the victims of theism would have had a very different life if they had not been deliberately mislead in their youth.

Yet there are also those, like me, who were brought up in a mildly religious school affiliated with the Church next door who found the religious education profoundly FUN. I loved the singing, listening to inspiring stories, celebrating Christmas and Easter. I was in no way compelled BE religious.
This has left me with a working knowledge of the Christian Church and an appreciation of what it CAN offer. I have been able to make an informed and free decision as to my own A-theistic beliefs. I value the religious education I recieved and take many positives from it.

I view my school as having OFFERED Christian religion as part of the school package which I subsequently declined to follow up. No harm done, and many happy memories.

I understand that in the Bible Belt there is huge compulsion and unhealthy stigma attached to BEING (or not) a Christian. This is not RELIGION perverting free will, this is PEOPLE perverting religion.

Should we ban religion because 'Middle America' cannot be trusted to use it fairly (in our opinion)? I'm not willing to stick my neck out on this issue. But if you choose to do so, your are stripping THEIR right to free-will. They have a choice about the way in which they choose to raise their children. You have no more right to interfere with their process then they do yours. All we can offer these children is a 'welcome' as/when they choose to leave. What more would you do with these communities? Gas them?

When others' beliefs start interfering with ones own civil liberties or - as crutially important - governance of ones country, I will challenge them.

[DeterminedJuliet]

Should we ban religion because 'Middle America' cannot be trusted to use it fairly (in our opinion)? I'm not willing to stick my neck out on this issue. But if you choose to do so, your are stripping THEIR right to free-will. They have a choice about the way in which they choose to raise their children. You have no more right to interfere with their process then they do yours. All we can offer these children is a 'welcome' as/when they choose to leave. What more would you do with these communities? Gas them?

When others' beliefs start interfering with ones own civil liberties or - as crutially important - governance of ones country, I will challenge them.

Uhhhh, what? Just because we are arguing against a parent putting a child into a religious school, doesn't mean that we don't acknowledge a parent's right to ultimately choose. Believe it or not, you can disagree with something without advocating that it be "banned" and without wanting to strip someone's "right to free-will."

I don't remember anyone saying anything about forcing the whole world to put their kids into secular schools.

[Crow]

Yet there are also those, like me, who were brought up in a mildly religious school affiliated with the Church next door who found the religious education profoundly FUN. I loved the singing, listening to inspiring stories, celebrating Christmas and Easter. I was in no way compelled BE religious.
This has left me with a working knowledge of the Christian Church and an appreciation of what it CAN offer. I have been able to make an informed and free decision as to my own A-theistic beliefs. I value the religious education I recieved and take many positives from it.

I view my school as having OFFERED Christian religion as part of the school package which I subsequently declined to follow up. No harm done, and many happy memories.

I understand that in the Bible Belt there is huge compulsion and unhealthy stigma attached to BEING (or not) a Christian. This is not RELIGION perverting free will, this is PEOPLE perverting religion.

Should we ban religion because 'Middle America' cannot be trusted to use it fairly (in our opinion)? I'm not willing to stick my neck out on this issue. But if you choose to do so, your are stripping THEIR right to free-will. They have a choice about the way in which they choose to raise their children. You have no more right to interfere with their process then they do yours. All we can offer these children is a 'welcome' as/when they choose to leave. What more would you do with these communities? Gas them?

When others' beliefs start interfering with ones own civil liberties or - as crutially important - governance of ones country, I will challenge them.

I agree with the majority of what you have said. I was also brought up in a mild C of E primary school where I actually learned more about other religions than protestant Christianity (mainly due to the fact that the majority of the teachers were not of the schools faith). I think that even though children may be indoctrinated from a young age that can still be challenged, just like a child's belief in sandy claws as they are still developing. The problem starts to arise in secondary school when the teachings get more intense and the children's mind is becoming more developed. We are starting to see a rise of old testament writings being taught as fact in science and history in some religious secondary schools in the UK, which can only be a bad thing. I also think the strict religious schools help create a divide within communities and also are not doing the job of help providing the children with the necessary tools they will need when they leave school.

[Tank]

i don't think it's "sad" that your kids are growing up religious. i think that it might actually work out better that way, because then they can decide for themselves whether or not they believe in a higher deity and all that.
i think that you're doing well for a situation like yours, i don't know how i would personally handle it.
giving them both opinions i think will help them in the long run to decide for themselves what to believe in.
good luck!

Sorry, but I can't possibly see the benefit of being brought up to believe falsehoods just so one can unlearn them. That's not the same as learning about fictional characters like Peter Pan where the child is told Peter is fictional, that's about stretching one's imagination and learning what fiction can be used for. But to be brought up and told, by people in authority, that a lie is true does nothing but screw up kids.

Some of the de-conversion stories I have read are horrendous and the victims of theism would have had a very different life if they had not been deliberately mislead in their youth.

Yet there are also those, like me, who were brought up in a mildly religious school affiliated with the Church next door who found the religious education profoundly FUN. I loved the singing, listening to inspiring stories, celebrating Christmas and Easter. I was in no way compelled BE religious.
This has left me with a working knowledge of the Christian Church and an appreciation of what it CAN offer. I have been able to make an informed and free decision as to my own A-theistic beliefs. I value the religious education I recieved and take many positives from it.

I view my school as having OFFERED Christian religion as part of the school package which I subsequently declined to follow up. No harm done, and many happy memories.

I understand that in the Bible Belt there is huge compulsion and unhealthy stigma attached to BEING (or not) a Christian. This is not RELIGION perverting free will, this is PEOPLE perverting religion.

Should we ban religion because 'Middle America' cannot be trusted to use it fairly (in our opinion)? I'm not willing to stick my neck out on this issue. But if you choose to do so, your are stripping THEIR right to free-will. They have a choice about the way in which they choose to raise their children. You have no more right to interfere with their process then they do yours. All we can offer these children is a 'welcome' as/when they choose to leave. What more would you do with these communities? Gas them?

When others' beliefs start interfering with ones own civil liberties or - as crutially important - governance of ones country, I will challenge them.

You appear to have had an experience very similar to my wife and she came out of it an atheist. But how much better(?) could you have been if you had been brought up without any religious nonsense with a humanist focus and ethical lessons free of institutionalised superstition? Yes you came out ok making do with the best of a bad job. I don't see why we should go on this way.

I won't be stripping anybodys rights to pratice any religion they want. But neither will I keep silent about what I think is wrong with religion.

[Sweetdeath]

You keep making the arguement that "i turned out ok. I turned out ok."
But yeah, so what.   You arent the majority of people.   And you aren't a gay man or woman who feels trapped and made to hate themselves by religious people or parents.

My 26 year old best friend  is a lesbian, and her parents constantly protest anything pro-choice or pro homosexual because they are bible fucking idiots.  I hate them. I really do.   My friend just graduated college, and is saving  to move, but never told them. She felt suicidal sometimes.

Now please sare tell me  teaching religion is a-ok. 

[Tank]

You keep making the arguement that "i turned out ok. I turned out ok."
But yeah, so what.   You arent the majority of people.   And you aren't a gay man or woman who feels trapped and made to hate themselves by religious people or parents.

My 26 year old best friend  is a lesbian, and her parents constantly protest anything pro-choice or pro homosexual because they are bible fucking idiots.  I hate them. I really do.   My friend just graduated college, and is saving  to move, but never told them. She felt suicidal sometimes.

Now please sare tell me  teaching religion is a-ok. 

Beware of the 'appeal to popularity' or you end up with the 'tyranny of the majority'. And Scissorlegs grew up in the UK, not the USA. His experiences will be very, very different from yours.

[Sweetdeath]

No problem, Tank.  I was just rambling on my personal experience like an old man.

[Too Few Lions]

No problem, Tank.  I was just rambling on my personal experience like an old man.

as a man who's not getting any younger, I consider that both ageist and sexist 

[Siz]

You keep making the arguement that "i turned out ok. I turned out ok."
But yeah, so what.   You arent the majority of people.   And you aren't a gay man or woman who feels trapped and made to hate themselves by religious people or parents.

My 26 year old best friend  is a lesbian, and her parents constantly protest anything pro-choice or pro homosexual because they are bible fucking idiots.  I hate them. I really do.   My friend just graduated college, and is saving  to move, but never told them. She felt suicidal sometimes.

Now please sare tell me  teaching religion is a-ok.  

Actually I AM the majority of people in the UK. All state schools taught with a Christian leaning, though we were never expected to BE religious. There is no major stigma here for non-belivers, just disdain. I have big enough shoulders to deal with that.

Religious Zealots can be found, but they don't predominate like they do in the US. We are not a particularly religious country and with new State school secularism we are becoming less so.

You must remember that it's not Religion per se that creates an oppressive society, it's the PEOPLE who pervert the religion. I can't help that the US is a breeding-ground for mindless nutters. (feel free to challenge me on this one).
So, yes, I will argue that my children have nothing to fear from religion. AND THAT IS MY OPINION.

And, I once again suggest that we agree to disagree.

[Too Few Lions]

I think your kids will turn out fine Scissorlegs, whether they choose to be atheists or Christians or anything else.
You're clearly open minded and it sounds as if your partner is too, and I'm sure any religious indoctrination won't be that severe at a CofE school, and if it is you'll make sure your kids get to learn there are other opinions out there too..

[Siz]

You appear to have had an experience very similar to my wife and she came out of it an atheist. But how much better(?) could you have been if you had been brought up without any religious nonsense with a humanist focus and ethical lessons free of institutionalised superstition? Yes you came out ok making do with the best of a bad job. I don't see why we should go on this way.

We may, in such case, have spent more time learning about the facts of the world, and that may have been time better spent. I cannot comment on the 'what ifs'. I would certainly not have gleaned an insight into Christianity that I regard as useful knowledge in todays world.
But, yes, in an ideal world we would all learn about the facts of science, and never have to encounter religion in any context other than historical reference.

It's a long road to complete secularism, but a worthy aspiration.

[DeterminedJuliet]

There are many great school that give children great experiences without religion in it all - where I grew up in Canada, the vast majority of people go through a secular school system. There are some private religious schools and some home schooling, but it is the minority by fair.
I just find it strange that you are defending a religious school by pointing to its lack of "religious-ness".