my journey: mental reconstruction

[viriditas]

Here's my main problem: I used to be a new ager, and I still have a lot of the same beliefs, I'm just trying to cut out God and allow myself to reconstruct the positive aspects of the things I used to believe, based on reality- a scientific, psychological basis- instead of fantasy. It's confusing to figure out what's left. have other people here done such reconstructing of their mental foundation and would any care to share? Anyway, what I most want to let go of is the notion that I create everything that happens to me. I simply don't believe that any more. I do think my perception colors my experience, and that a positive attitude seems to help in most situations... but I just don't think I create everything that happens to me, any more. I don't know, some things just happen and are beyond my control, and realizing that has provided me some peace. Still, I'm prone to some feeling of guilt or excess responsibility - I have trouble knowing what is and isn't my responsibility. thoughts?

the truth is I'm not exactly a HAPPY atheist... well mainly I'm not a happy person... but that's not because God doesn't exist! That part, I'm fine with! it's this stupid life... that is annoying... lol. that's not to say I don't have any fun... I'm in a long term recovery from a major injury and that makes it hard right now.

[Tank]

I think the deep philosophical reason for your situation can be summed up as 'Shit happens, and it's not always your fault.'

Seriously I don't believe in Buddhist 'Karma' but I've seen and experienced personal 'karma' I.E. what you do comes back in spades. I've also dished out 'karma' to others, both good and bad. Humans are complex, the world is complex, it is impossible to have control over all but the most minimal local area around one (both physically and emotionally). So shit happens and sometimes one just gets hit by the fallout.

[viriditas]

ha ha... works for me, Tank, and I'd be curious to know more about ideas of "karma" from an atheist perspective.

[Tank]

Natural (as opposed to supernatural) karma, is based on the Golden Rule, 'Do unto others etc' And I've seen it happen and experienced my behaviour reflected back at me. But outside this one can have confounding variable, like third parties in relationships, who have their own agenda and one gets shafted by them. However over time a nasty mean-spirited person will end up surrounded by nasty mean-spirited people or alone. One can't go around being nasty to person 'A' because person 'B' was nasty to one.

In general good behaviour towards others is reciprocated, as is bad behaviour. One doesn't need the supernatural to mediate normal social interactions so in that sense natural 'karma' is no different for a theist or atheist. But supernatural Karma is a core aspect of Buddhism and thus a Buddhist should be more aware that there are consequences to actions, and in the case of Buddhists these consequences accumulate and can affect one's re-incarnation prospects.

[viriditas]

I don't know anything about buddhism (my new-ageism was more modern, hip-physics and Hindu influenced) but I agree that good behaviour needs no supernatural intervention to be reciprocated. Now that I think of it, to be specific, I'll venture that "good" behaviour is only reciprocated by those other people who perceive it as such, have no ill agenda, and are capable of reciprocity.

[Tank]

I don't know anything about buddhism (my new-ageism was more modern, hip-physics and Hindu influenced) but I agree that good behaviour needs no supernatural intervention to be reciprocated. Now that I think of it, to be specific, I'll venture that "good" behaviour is only reciprocated by those other people who perceive it as such, have no ill agenda, and are capable of reciprocity.

Yes. I would agree with that. Being nice or well-behaved towards some people is very much like 'Throwing pearls before swine.' i.e. it's neither appreciated nor reciprocated.

Regards Buddhism I read up a little about it a couple of weeks ago. A good unbiased view can be found here Buddhism. What appears to be unique about Buddhism is that it places one's 'salvation' fair-and-square on the individual, one holds one's own destiny in one's own hands. One can practice Buddhist teachings without supernatural intervention. Personally if everybody were secular Buddhist I think the world would be a far better place than it is. Seriously considering getting more involved in it.

[viriditas]

hmm. well, thanks for the thought, and to each his own, but it doesn't look very atheist to me. Looks like the Buddhists believe in reincarnation; I suppose the literal meaning of atheism wouldn't preclude that but the extended meaning as scientific skepticism would certainly question it. Personally I'd like to believe in reincarnation, but since I can't say for certain, I keep the whole idea on the back burner and don't base life decisions on it. Moreover, i'll never buy into the numbing notion that my desire creates my suffering. Uh, No. Saying "one holds one's destiny in one's own hands" is very much like saying "we create our reality" which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid saying. Do you find that there are as many versions of atheism as there are members on this forum?    

[Tank]

hmm. well, thanks for the thought, and to each his own, but it doesn't look very atheist to me.

Well from my recent and limited investigations I would agree, the Buddha's philosophy has been wrapped up in a lot of 'woo'.

Looks like the Buddhists believe in reincarnation; I suppose the literal meaning of atheism wouldn't preclude that but the extended meaning as scientific skepticism would certainly question it. Personally I'd like to believe in reincarnation, but since I can't say for certain, I keep the whole idea on the back burner and don't base life decisions on it.

I don't believe in reincarnation or any sort of persistence after death.

Moreover, i'll never buy into the numbing notion that my desire creates my suffering. Uh, No. Saying "one holds one's destiny in one's own hands" is very much like saying "we create our reality" which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid saying.

I'll have to think about that.

Do you find that there are as many versions of atheism as there are members on this forum?   

Not really. In my experience there are two shades of atheists 'weak', 'there could be a god but I don't see any evidence', and 'strong', 'god does not exist'.

I would contend that nobody becomes an atheist in the same way that one would become a Christian i.e. to self-identify with a group. The atheists I have known have come to atheism because they have found their way to a naturalist world view and atheism is a result of that naturalistic world view. Thus atheists tend to share characterises because of their shared naturalistic world view and atheism is one of the results of that world view. Again I have never found atheists attempting to create an atheistic creed/dogma, most are fiercely independent.

Get to your 10 posts and you can add to this thread Where do you sit on the Dawkins belief scale? where the atheist 'types' are discussed.

[Xjeepguy]

Here's my main problem: I used to be a new ager, and I still have a lot of the same beliefs, I'm just trying to cut out God and allow myself to reconstruct the positive aspects of the things I used to believe, based on reality- a scientific, psychological basis- instead of fantasy. It's confusing to figure out what's left. have other people here done such reconstructing of their mental foundation and would any care to share? Anyway, what I most want to let go of is the notion that I create everything that happens to me. I simply don't believe that any more. I do think my perception colors my experience, and that a positive attitude seems to help in most situations... but I just don't think I create everything that happens to me, any more. I don't know, some things just happen and are beyond my control, and realizing that has provided me some peace. Still, I'm prone to some feeling of guilt or excess responsibility - I have trouble knowing what is and isn't my responsibility. thoughts?

the truth is I'm not exactly a HAPPY atheist... well mainly I'm not a happy person... but that's not because God doesn't exist! That part, I'm fine with! it's this stupid life... that is annoying... lol. that's not to say I don't have any fun... I'm in a long term recovery from a major injury and that makes it hard right now.

Funny you should mention this, I am still de-programming as well. A lot of those old habits and thought processes still linger, despite my new enlightenment. I am of the strong belief that xtianity is set up to be very difficult to separate from. I was conditioned from infancy to "follow JC or go to hell", and if something bad happens to me, it is because I did something to anger god or I have let the devil into my life. Xtianity likes to talk down on cults, but they follow the same brainwashing practices as some of the better known cults in history.

It will take a very long time to get all of those habits and thoughts out of my life completely, and sort through what should stay and what should go. It's almost like going through a hard drive before formatting. Trying to figure out what was religion and what is me. Good luck with it, I know it can be difficult.

[Siz]

I found Atheism helped me on the same issue. The notion that Karma was gonna get me or that God will reap his godly revenge mean nothing to me now, as I know there is no connection between me and anyone/anything else, other that that which can be percieved by their own fallable Darwinian senses.

I suspect that any thoughts you may have about any kind of retribution are self imposed or psychosomatic. When Tank suggests "one holds one's destiny in one's own hands" this is absolutely different from "we create our reality". Ones holding of ones own destiny means that we, and we alone choose the way we act or react to the situation put before us (our reality). We HAVE NOT created that situation which is put before us.
I control my own actions, and you control yours. Both of our realities are currently intersecting and you have no control over what I choose to say or do. And neither I you. You can only react to it... or not.

[viriditas]

Well I guess there's no easy way to say it, it's gotta be explained. cool.

[Tank]

Well I guess there's no easy way to say it, it's gotta be explained. cool.

Not sure I follow this comment? Could you expand on this please.

[Sweetdeath]

I used to believe in karma.  I studied  Buddhism pretty intensely for about five years, trying to figure out what went wrong in my life.  I had an alcoholic mother, absentee father, and too much bad shit happen to me.  I can be sarcastic and cold, but karma simply doesn't explain the terrible things that happened.

And then I watch a lot of shows about innocent people getting murdered, despite how kind, selfless they were in life.  So yeah, ka rma doesn't make sense to me...

[Siz]

A positive mental outlook is more than enough to assuage any fears of karmic retribution.

[Crow]

Anyway, what I most want to let go of is the notion that I create everything that happens to me. I simply don't believe that any more.

I do not believe in freewill at all. My own perception of our consciousness is that we react in certain ways due to events prior which have effected us on a subconscious level, how we interpret these events is down to our genetic make-up and prior interactions. What we do has nothing to do with freewill we are just reacting to a chain of events. Its hard to put into words as I have never written or spoke about it and is far more complex than the description given.