The God Hypothesis

[xSilverPhinx]

[- God is One
- God is Infinite
- God has many names, so humans can perceive Him in a certain way
- God sustains everything that is
- God is the Source all
- God is the Destination of all

Compare God with the Sun.
The grass is green because it reflects only the green light of the total spectrum of light given by the sun.
Green light is a divine attribute.
A flower might reflect multiple waves of light, so it has multiple divine attributes.
If the sun turns off, then the grass is no longer visible, the same can be said about the universe.
God is not the grass, so He isn't the universe.

The human being is like a mini-sun if he corrects the inward balance.
Otherwise he'll see the grass as blue and will make faulty actions.

This is starting to look like a variant of the Copenhagen Interpretation in some form (I just had to throw that in there ). Are you saying that your view of what god is changes depending on what you're looking at and how you see it?

[iSok]

[- God is One
- God is Infinite
- God has many names, so humans can perceive Him in a certain way
- God sustains everything that is
- God is the Source all
- God is the Destination of all

Compare God with the Sun.
The grass is green because it reflects only the green light of the total spectrum of light given by the sun.
Green light is a divine attribute.
A flower might reflect multiple waves of light, so it has multiple divine attributes.
If the sun turns off, then the grass is no longer visible, the same can be said about the universe.
God is not the grass, so He isn't the universe.

The human being is like a mini-sun if he corrects the inward balance.
Otherwise he'll see the grass as blue and will make faulty actions.

This is starting to look like a variant of the Copenhagen Interpretation in some form (I just had to throw that in there ). Are you saying that your view of what god is changes depending on what you're looking at and how you see it?

Could you be a bit more clear?

[iSok]

This makes more faith to believe in than faith in God...

Ok. it's 3AM, I can not sleep and am more gray and grumpy than I can remember being this month, so I just have to ask:

What kind of bullshit statement is that?

What is the universal unit of measure of faith? How do you objectively compare things in terms of faith required beyond a simple boolean variable?

I just said that it takes a lot of faith to belief that different cultures who were isolated from eachother looked at the stars
and all came up with the flood myth. The stars move because there was once a flood which killed a lot of creatures on earth.

Faith cannot be measured, it's something personal for every human being.
Personally, it takes far more faith to belief in the above than faith in a God that sustains the universe, that's what I meant.

[Sweetdeath]

If God is the Sun, then i'm reapplying my sunblock before I catch skincancer.

Edit:  btw, doesn't science show that stars look as if they are moving because we orbit ? I dunno, but i'm not a scientist.

[Asmodean]

I just said that it takes a lot of faith to belief that different cultures who were isolated from eachother looked at the stars
and all came up with the flood myth. The stars move because there was once a flood which killed a lot of creatures on earth.

Faith cannot be measured, it's something personal for every human being.
Personally, it takes far more faith to belief in the above than faith in a God that sustains the universe, that's what I meant.

Personally being the key word, I now regard this as a subjective statement.

Thanks for clarifying.

[xSilverPhinx]

This is starting to look like a variant of the Copenhagen Interpretation in some form (I just had to throw that in there ). Are you saying that your view of what god is changes depending on what you're looking at and how you see it?

Could you be a bit more clear?

I meant to say is it like god having angles or different viewing points? If you look at and describe one thing then other aspects are hidden? As in no one can know the whole picture (of what god is) at once?

[Too Few Lions]

I just said that it takes a lot of faith to belief that different cultures who were isolated from eachother looked at the stars
and all came up with the flood myth. The stars move because there was once a flood which killed a lot of creatures on earth.
Personally, it takes far more faith to belief in the above than faith in a God that sustains the universe, that's what I meant.

Firstly, I would question how many of the flood myths from the New World and other far flung corners of the Earth are of genuine antiquity. The Aztec and Inca flood myths for example are both most probably of post-Columbian origin, the earliest mention of these myths is from well after the Spanish conquest of the Americas. I'm more comfortable dealing with the flood myths from Eurasia that we know are of genuine antiquity.

Secondly you've misunderstood what I said, I think the flood myth as told in the Bible / Gilgamesh Epic / Greek / European mythology is allegorical for the precessional movement of the stars (and in particular the pole star as that's probably how people first would have noticed that stars move over time, although they wouldn't have known why). That's completely different from saying that people believed 'the stars move because there was once a flood which killed a lot of creatures on earth.' I don't think anyone ever thought that.

Personally, I think saying flood myths may be allegorical for the precessional movement of the stars requires less faith than believing that there's a god that sustains the universe (but that's just my subjective view!)

[Stevil]

- God is One
- God is Infinite
- God has many names, so humans can perceive Him in a certain way
- God sustains everything that is
- God is the Source all
- God is the Destination of all

OK, here we have a set of assertions.
How do we go about making these SMART?
(Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic and Timely)

Well, first we need to make sense of each of these assertions.
- God is One
One what? If I said the word "Myth" would you answer "God is one"
Does this mean that there is one god rather than many gods?
Does it mean that god is made up of only one atom?
This statement is vague hence non specific. Its meaning is ambiguous and hence cannot be measured. Unless this statement is clarified it must be thrown out.

- God is Infinite
Infinite with regards to what?
Infinite in the same way that Space is infinite, a vast never ending nothingness?
Infinite with regards to a concept rather than an actual physical system. E.g. The number "one" is a concept of a singular rather than plural. The concept could be seen as being infinite as there wasn't a time when this concept could be seen as being invalid although "one" is only conceptual and does not exist in of itself.
This statement is vague hence non specific. Its meaning is ambiguous and hence cannot be measured. Unless this statement is clarified it must be thrown out.

- God has many names, so humans can perceive Him in a certain way
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Names are simply labels, they have no meaning of themselves.
Perception only leads to misunderstanding, clarity (specific) is what we need in order to quantify (measurable) and test (attainable). Unless this statement is clarified and focused on a measurable it must be thrown out.

- God sustains everything that is
Sustains, in what way?
Everything that is, even inanimate objects?
How is a rock sustained by god?
What about the element Francium
"Francium is the most unstable of the naturally occurring elements: its most stable isotope, francium-223, has a maximum half-life of only 22 minutes"
God doesn't seem to sustain Francium, not for a time period that humans would regard the element as having being sustained.
Unless this statement is clarified it must be thrown out.

- God is the Source all
By source are we meaning the cause of existence?
Is god the perpetual eternal quantum fluctuations that potentially caused matter and energy to come into existence?
We can only guess at this stage what caused existence, this statement fails on being attainable, realistic or timely and hence must be thrown out.

- God is the Destination of all
What is meant by destination?
What is meant by all?
I am destined to die, is god death?
My body is destined to rot and decay, is god decomposition?
Our universe is destined to disperse, is god virtual nothingness?
This statement is vague hence non specific. Its meaning is ambiguous and hence cannot be measured. Unless this statement is clarified it must be thrown out.

iSok are you able to provide SMART characteristics of your god?

[Gawen]

- God is One
- God is Infinite
- God has many names, so humans can perceive Him in a certain way
- God sustains everything that is
- God is the Source all
- God is the Destination of all

Compare God with the Sun.
The grass is green because it reflects only the green light of the total spectrum of light given by the sun.
Green light is a divine attribute.
A flower might reflect multiple waves of light, so it has multiple divine attributes.
If the sun turns off, then the grass is no longer visible, the same can be said about the universe.
God is not the grass, so He isn't the universe.

The human being is like a mini-sun if he corrects the inward balance.
Otherwise he'll see the grass as blue and will make faulty actions.

lol, I never said anything about miracles as evidence....
And what's 'chucklin'?

First "Chuckling". You are the first person to ask me since (1997) I've been writing out words instead in smileys. *Chucklin* = laughing quietly. *laffin*=laughing. *smilin*=smiling. *grinnin*= smiling broadly.

As for miracles, you sourced a quote that mentions a flood.

Compare God with the Sun.

The sun was created.
The sun is big.
The sun is hot.
The sun radiates heat.
The sun radiates light.
The sun will burn you.
The sun will burn you up if you get too close.
The sun is nuclear.
The sun throws out solar flares.
Compared to a wood fire, the sun is violent.
The sun will die.

When you compare God with the sun, you get green light by way of reflected grass.
I compared god to the sun an get attributes such as God is created, big, hot, burns, atomic, shines, violent and dies.

Faith cannot be measured,

Which is why it fails as evidence.

Your hypotheses and evidence to support them fails. Why then, do you believe?



Great post Stevil!

[Too Few Lions]

- God is One
- God is Infinite
- God has many names, so humans can perceive Him in a certain way
- God sustains everything that is
- God is the Source all
- God is the Destination of all

Compare God with the Sun.
The grass is green because it reflects only the green light of the total spectrum of light given by the sun.
Green light is a divine attribute.
A flower might reflect multiple waves of light, so it has multiple divine attributes.
If the sun turns off, then the grass is no longer visible, the same can be said about the universe.
God is not the grass, so He isn't the universe.

The human being is like a mini-sun if he corrects the inward balance.
Otherwise he'll see the grass as blue and will make faulty actions.

I see no mention of Mohammed and no mention of the Qur'an or anything particularly Islamic, are you sure you're a Muslim iSok? Your rather abstract and non-denominational descriptions of god make you sound more like a deist to me  
And your allegory of the grass and the Sun reminds me a lot of Plato and his allegory of the cave

[iSok]

- God is One
- God is Infinite
- God has many names, so humans can perceive Him in a certain way
- God sustains everything that is
- God is the Source all
- God is the Destination of all

OK, here we have a set of assertions.
How do we go about making these SMART?
(Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic and Timely)

Well, first we need to make sense of each of these assertions.
- God is One
One what? If I said the word "Myth" would you answer "God is one"
Does this mean that there is one god rather than many gods?
Does it mean that god is made up of only one atom?
This statement is vague hence non specific. Its meaning is ambiguous and hence cannot be measured. Unless this statement is clarified it must be thrown out.

- God is Infinite
Infinite with regards to what?
Infinite in the same way that Space is infinite, a vast never ending nothingness?
Infinite with regards to a concept rather than an actual physical system. E.g. The number "one" is a concept of a singular rather than plural. The concept could be seen as being infinite as there wasn't a time when this concept could be seen as being invalid although "one" is only conceptual and does not exist in of itself.
This statement is vague hence non specific. Its meaning is ambiguous and hence cannot be measured. Unless this statement is clarified it must be thrown out.

- God has many names, so humans can perceive Him in a certain way
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Names are simply labels, they have no meaning of themselves.
Perception only leads to misunderstanding, clarity (specific) is what we need in order to quantify (measurable) and test (attainable). Unless this statement is clarified and focused on a measurable it must be thrown out.

- God sustains everything that is
Sustains, in what way?
Everything that is, even inanimate objects?
How is a rock sustained by god?
What about the element Francium
"Francium is the most unstable of the naturally occurring elements: its most stable isotope, francium-223, has a maximum half-life of only 22 minutes"
God doesn't seem to sustain Francium, not for a time period that humans would regard the element as having being sustained.
Unless this statement is clarified it must be thrown out.

- God is the Source all
By source are we meaning the cause of existence?
Is god the perpetual eternal quantum fluctuations that potentially caused matter and energy to come into existence?
We can only guess at this stage what caused existence, this statement fails on being attainable, realistic or timely and hence must be thrown out.

- God is the Destination of all
What is meant by destination?
What is meant by all?
I am destined to die, is god death?
My body is destined to rot and decay, is god decomposition?
Our universe is destined to disperse, is god virtual nothingness?
This statement is vague hence non specific. Its meaning is ambiguous and hence cannot be measured. Unless this statement is clarified it must be thrown out.

iSok are you able to provide SMART characteristics of your god?

This is just leading to nowhere, it's pointless to discuss God with atheists...
You're thinking in terms of the scientific method, you are expecting that God can be carefuly defined among
the lines of science. In terms of God's weight, size, tasks (and how?); in other words you want God to be carefuly defined, no matter
the limits you put on Him.

I gave a few methaporical examples of how you can see God and in what way God sustains.
Like the sun making the grass  visible, without the sun the grass would be no longer perceived.
But you twisted it into a literal understanding.

As for your question; no.

- God is One
- God is Infinite
- God has many names, so humans can perceive Him in a certain way
- God sustains everything that is
- God is the Source all
- God is the Destination of all

Compare God with the Sun.
The grass is green because it reflects only the green light of the total spectrum of light given by the sun.
Green light is a divine attribute.
A flower might reflect multiple waves of light, so it has multiple divine attributes.
If the sun turns off, then the grass is no longer visible, the same can be said about the universe.
God is not the grass, so He isn't the universe.

The human being is like a mini-sun if he corrects the inward balance.
Otherwise he'll see the grass as blue and will make faulty actions.

I see no mention of Mohammed and no mention of the Qur'an or anything particularly Islamic, are you sure you're a Muslim iSok? Your rather abstract and non-denominational descriptions of god make you sound more like a deist to me 
And your allegory of the grass and the Sun reminds me a lot of Plato and his allegory of the cave

TFL, I believe that God has revealed religions, which makes me a theist.
I believe that the final revelation and the one that is now still pure was the Qur'an, which makes me a Muslim.

I believe in the God that can be found in the Qur'an and who has also revealed other religions around the globe as the Qur'an mentions them as another way to God for humans.
As for the allegory of the cave, I mostly read books written by Al-Ghazali, he gave also some type of an example in 'The Niche of Light's', possibly inspired by Plato.

[iSok]

This is starting to look like a variant of the Copenhagen Interpretation in some form (I just had to throw that in there ). Are you saying that your view of what god is changes depending on what you're looking at and how you see it?

Could you be a bit more clear?

I meant to say is it like god having angles or different viewing points? If you look at and describe one thing then other aspects are hidden? As in no one can know the whole picture (of what god is) at once?

My condition doesn't change of what God is, but I do change in the way that I can come near to God or draw away from Him.
I posted the reply below a while ago on another forum to explain a few things, it contains elements that you must have heard from me by now
a couple of thousand times, but will contain the answer. The bold part is your answer.

A few interesting replies I read here, people do not seem to like God, I assume it's probably because of the Qur'an.  The thought that God needs to be worshipped is for many people overwhelming, reality however is very different.

Within Islam, the human being is seen as the vicegerent of God (an aspect of Tasbih = similarity with God), since the human being has the 99 names of God but dimmed.
Vicegerency is expressing Tasbih and has strong inclination with the intellectual faculty of imagination, which tends to find relation and unity in all entities.

But within Islam, man is also seen as the slave of God. He is considered as a creature that is far away from the Majestic King; man is seen as a creature that has to follow commands.
Servanthood for man is expressing Tanzih (incomparability with God) and has strong inclination with the intellectual faculty of reason, which tends to analyse and deconstruct everything with the principle of either/or.

Christianity has a strong inclination towards the elements of Tasbih (Imagination and unity).
Hinduism insists even more on Tasbih with Pantheism being the extreme.
Judaism heads more towards elements of Tanzih (Reason). Deism takes Tanzih a step further and it eventually ends up in atheism or agnosticism, which is happening here in the west.

Moses (s) glorified the Majesty of God, Jesus (s) glorified the Mercy of God and Muhammad (s) glorified the Perfection of God.

The Qur'an is simply trying to restore Tawhid, which consists of Tanzih and Tasbih merged in a balanced state. Man was created to adopt this balance, as it's his natural inclination.

I assume that the main goal of every human being whether atheist or theist, black or white, young or old, male or female is the pursuit of happiness and preferably reaching the highest form as possible.
Some might think that it can be found in money or power or sex or a combination of other elements.
From the Islamic point of view, Real happiness comes from growing to the Source of all and the Destination of all. (Islam = Submit to find peace). There need to be certain conditions for this of course, coming near to the divine means that one should submit and be humbled.
Ego, arrogance, envy, anger and even false desires which lead to misery are examples of how multiple obstacles are in the way of this journey to the Divine, since you cannot come near the Divine if you carry them. A Muslim rather works on this in this life then to face them when God demands all creation to be returned willingly or unwillingly.

The Qur'an is nothing more than a mirror which shows our current progress, of who we really are deep inside.

[xSilverPhinx]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Tank]

ISoK

It is pointless discussing God with people who value critical thinking, are skeptical and who value evidence over assertion. That sort of person also tends to be an atheist nowadays. In the West theists can no longer get their own way through bribery, seduction and bullying. Everybody has to justify their world view. If they can't justify it then it will be ignored. Atheism isn't a dogma, an orthodoxy or a faith, it isn't a cause of a way of thinking, it is a result of a way of thinking.

The basis of theism is institutionalised superstition and as such it can't stand rigorous examination. To believe in something one can not adequately describe used to be acceptable but that is no longer the case. In addition humanity has grown up and can live knowing it doesn't matter if we don't know everything. In the days when we didn't know what a star or planet were then our ancestors filled in the gaps with stories, fiction that kept away the fear that ignorance brings.

We don't need comfort stories anymore, not because we know everything, but because we know enough. It's time to leave the stories from our past in the past and create new stories of our future, a future free from superstition. One can't produce a god hypothesis because, to put it bluntly, there is apparently no god.

Regards
Chris

[xSilverPhinx]

Just to add to what Tank said, it's one thing when a person wants to believe in whatever they want but another when societies want to push their ways of thinking and acting on people who don't share their views. And to deny that it happens is naive.

Religions just aren't able to convince more and more people anymore, precisely because of what this entire thread is about. No one can demonstrate a paptable and real (in any sense) god, without any room for doubt, and yet people want others to live in accordance.

Not that I'm saying that you specifically iSok are trying to push your views on anybody here, you're defending them, which is fine. I'm just saying that in the generalised sense. It's what religious societies do.